Return-Path: X-Processed-By: Virex 7 on prxy.net X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.1.8 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #28 Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 03:00:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at: http://stagecraft.theprices.net/ --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #28 1. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;) by Rigger 2. New and Improved Counterweight Rigging (as of 1998) by "Brian Busch" 3. Re. Counterweight Rigging by Ron Cargile 4. Re: Rings (warning: almost completely OT) by "Joe Meils" 5. Re: Re. Counterweight Rigging by "Adam Berns" 6. Re: Re. Counterweight Rigging by Steve Larson 7. Re: Automation Grenade by CB 8. Re: New and Improved Counterweight Rigging (as of 1998) by "Kevin Patrick" 9. Re: New and Improved Counterweight Rigging (as of 1998) by "Brian Busch" 10. He's BAAAAaaack! by CB 11. Re: Rings (warning: almost completely OT) by CB 12. Re: Rings (warning: almost completely OT) by CB 13. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;) by CB 14. Re: Welcome back Frank by "Daryl Redmon" 15. Guiness Counterweight Rigging by "Randy Whitcomb" 16. Re: old gear: was EGA monitors: was Microvision disks by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 17. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;) by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 18. Re: Food for thought - caution: irony alert by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 19. Re: Food for thought by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 20. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;) by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 21. Re: Food for thought... Wal Mart ammo by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 22. Re: EGA monitors: was Microvision disks by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 23. Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging by Duncan Mahoney 24. Re: Rings (warning: almost completely OT) by Herrick 25. Re: Bakshi by Duncan Mahoney 26. Re: Power quality, electrical system specs by Mitch Hefter 27. Re: Counterweight systems by Michael Powers 28. Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging by Richard Niederberg 29. Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging by Mike Brubaker 30. Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging by Stuart Wheaton 31. Re: Counterweight systems by "Matthew Breton" 32. Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging by "Jason" 33. Re: Bakshi by "Joe Meils" 34. Re: Counterweight systems by "Tom Heemskerk" 35. Re: Counterweight systems by "Jason" 36. Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging by Richard Niederberg 37. Question about header by Eric Minton *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:41:58 -0400 From: Rigger Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;) At 2:30 PM -0700 6/2/04, Jerry Durand wrote: > Something that IS theater related is us pyros trying to be legal > while the BATFE makes more and more stuff illegal (while at the > same time saying that a gun owner can safely store all his ammo > and powder in a home). Ayup... That's why I sold off my magazine last summer, and why when my Type 19 expires this fall I may or may not renew it. It's almost not worth the hassle trying to obey The Law any more. -- Dave Vick, IATSE #274 Head Electrician, The Wharton Center for Performing Arts at Michigan State University Carpe Per Diem ------------------------------ From: "Brian Busch" Subject: New and Improved Counterweight Rigging (as of 1998) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:20:07 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01c448f8$25059a70$0200a8c0 [at] trinity> In-Reply-To: Chris said: Now, you can take this with as many grains of salt as needed, and consider the source (NOT a rigger, and not even close...), but I always thought, as a sound guy, that there was an easier way to do this. I picture the Nautilus gear at the gym, with the clearly marked weights and the moveable pin, and I think, "This would be a great way to adjust the weight on a counterweight system". Or, am I just and idiot? Why couldn't the weights be set up with some sort of choice of available weight without actually removing it from the arbor? Well, as a sound guy (and be proud of it) you may be right. There actually may be an easier way to load weight. At least its been patented. I'm pretty sure no one is actually manufacturing this device but it is fascinating. It's patent no. 05711713. I think a better solution exists to get rid of the grease cups and drilling out all that counterweight will keep students busy for weeks. http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL &p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,711,713.WKU.&OS=PN/5,711, 713&RS=PN/5,711,713 You'll need a TIFF viewer to actually see the document and the images which is available here: http://www.alternatiff.com/ But you can read all about it without the viewer. Brian Busch University of Cincinnati College-Conservatory of Music ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040602164913.01b6a588 [at] pop.uci.edu> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 16:50:36 -0700 From: Ron Cargile Subject: Re. Counterweight Rigging >And around here that'd put the arbor well deep into the water table. >-- >Dave Vick, IATSE #274 Looks like we're back to liquid counterweight..... :) sorry. Couldn't resist. ....Ron __________ Ron Cargile Electrics & Audio Supervisor Claire Trevor School of the Arts University of California, Irvine (949) 824-4031 ------------------------------ Message-ID: <001401c448ff$40be7320$16ecbed0 [at] hppav> From: "Joe Meils" References: Subject: Re: Rings (warning: almost completely OT) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:11:00 -0500 Funnily enough.... They just released "Wizards" on DVD. I've always considered Bakshi to be the low end of animation and art. But that one movie has some strange sort of "jazz" to it. Listening to the commentary, I have a new respect for him. He helped get artists like Ian Miller and Mike Ploog a start in the film business. Like some people have said, he's the "anti-Disney." Thank God he was there to offer an alternative. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "CB" To: "Stagecraft" Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 11:17 AM Subject: Re: Rings (warning: almost completely OT) > For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending > your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at: > http://stagecraft.theprices.net/ > --------------------------------------------------- > > > >I lived with Bakshi's animated version for far too long. > > Did that lead you to any of Ralph's earlier works? While most of his > 'Fritz' stuff was a rip-off or Robert Crumb, Robert was way too strange to > do anything with it anyways. Bakshi and Crumb are probably responsible for > my taste in women more than anyone else on the planet, and some of my > wierder tastes as well... > Oh, and merely knowing who Bakshi is makes you a geek. > Chris "Chris" Babbie > Location Sound > MON AZ > > Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates > negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:24:02 -0400 Message-Id: <200406022024.AA694091930 [at] mail.adamb.com> From: "Adam Berns" Subject: Re: Re. Counterweight Rigging Yeah, liquid... beer! New sport in the tech olympics, bar hoping meets rigging... Sorry could not resist. ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Ron Cargile Reply-To: "Stagecraft" Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 16:50:36 -0700 For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at: http://stagecraft.theprices.net/ --------------------------------------------------- >And around here that'd put the arbor well deep into the water table. >-- >Dave Vick, IATSE #274 Looks like we're back to liquid counterweight..... :) sorry. Couldn't resist. ....Ron __________ Ron Cargile Electrics & Audio Supervisor Claire Trevor School of the Arts University of California, Irvine (949) 824-4031 ________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:27:55 -0400 Subject: Re: Re. Counterweight Rigging From: Steve Larson Message-ID: In-Reply-To: HOPS, NOT HOPE!!!! on 6/2/04 8:24 PM, Adam Berns at ab [at] adamb.com wrote: > For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending > your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at: > http://stagecraft.theprices.net/ > --------------------------------------------------- > > > Yeah, liquid... beer! New sport in the tech olympics, bar hoping meets > rigging... > > Sorry could not resist. > ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040602173331.01691c00 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 17:33:31 From: CB Subject: Re: Automation Grenade >And how many times have you seen a technician onstage either pushing a wagon or pulling a >counterweight line while looking for a spike mark instead of watching stage for errant actors and >such? Ehm, the last time had a winch operator moving a wagon, and humans pulling the rail, there were incidences of other set parts and humans (sometimes even actors) getting into the lift/crush zones. Fortunately, in all cases there were others backstage, and/or the operator was equipped with peripheral vision. In either curcumstance, no one was injured. The closest thing to an accident that we had was an actor running into me on a dark stage when we both went to fetch a piece of 8' x 2' luan that had fallen off a piece of hard set. The piece was leaning against the set, preventing it from getting pulled, and resting on a wagon, preventing the wagon from getting pulled. The actor received the Actor Tech Award for the day, as he also caught the luan as it fell off the set. In stride. Without missing a beat. Having an operator move the set via automation or manually has its dangers. Whatever they are, we take precautions against those dangers. If we don't, it doesn't matter waht type of tool we implement, we are negligent. Being negligent kills, not tools. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ From: "Kevin Patrick" Subject: Re: New and Improved Counterweight Rigging (as of 1998) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 21:08:12 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's the same link, but shorter http://makeashorterlink.com/?T13532678 \< Brian mentioned.... Well, as a sound guy (and be proud of it) you may be right. There actually may be an easier way to load weight. At least its been patented. I'm pretty sure no one is actually manufacturing this device but it is fascinating. It's patent no. 05711713. I think a better solution exists to get rid of the grease cups and drilling out all that counterweight will keep students busy for weeks. http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL &p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,711,713.WKU.&OS=PN/5,711, 713&RS=PN/5,711,713 Brian Busch University of Cincinnati College-Conservatory of Music --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 5/31/2004 ------------------------------ From: "Brian Busch" Subject: Re: New and Improved Counterweight Rigging (as of 1998) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 21:22:50 -0400 Message-ID: <000101c44909$49ed2c70$0200a8c0 [at] trinity> In-Reply-To: I should have known better. Try this (under the wrap length) link, then type in 5711713. http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm Brian Busch University of Cincinnati College-Conservatory of Music ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040602175646.01691c00 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 17:56:46 From: CB Subject: He's BAAAAaaack! >That is open to question. and >So, oddly enough, am I! But your 'Apples', allow me to create my own >pictures. Your 'Oranges' interpose the director's vision between me and the work. I >have often found this unsuccessful. For example, when Hunding returns to his >house, in a bowler hat, black jacket and striped trousers carrying a briefcase, >and the next morning fights Siegmund with a broadsword, I find my credulity >stretched past breaking point. Were posted yesterday. Ahhhhh, eerything is back to normal, er, abnormal, er, whatever... Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040602180017.01691c00 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:00:17 From: CB Subject: Re: Rings (warning: almost completely OT) >Guilty as charged. > >(i own 'wizards' on dvd.) MMMmmm. Ralphi's best work, I think. And, I now know what to do with my DVD player. Any idea if any of his earlier works have been released on DVD? Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040602180119.01691c00 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:01:19 From: CB Subject: Re: Rings (warning: almost completely OT) >Yes I am particularly fond of Bakshi's "wizards" but you probably even >know my favorite quote from it anyway. "This is a little trick Ma taught me when you weren't around"? Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040602181431.01691c00 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:14:31 From: CB Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;) >But, really, do we ALL have to do what you want just because your mainspring is >wound too tightly? ;-) He didn't say it was mandatory, he said it was safer. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-ID: <000f01c4490f$93bde7d0$6400a8c0 [at] DADS> From: "Daryl Redmon" References: Subject: Re: Welcome back Frank Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:07:51 -0700 Don't forget all of the trolly cars and locomotive ... Daryl Redmon > > Uh huh. What you know about > > series-wound, universal motors is all $^%$& up! But, hey, nobody's prefect. > > Well, not a lot. They didn't turn up often in my end of the world. > But enough. The starter motor in your car is probably one. Enormous torque at > low revs, and enormous currents. 300A is not unusual, and that from a 12V > supply. I have it in my mind that they were also used to power steel rolling > mills. > > Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-ID: <000501c44914$603e84a0$43cea143 [at] attbi.com> From: "Randy Whitcomb" References: Subject: Guiness Counterweight Rigging Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:42:11 -0600 Simple math should show the futility of pursuing this any further. Arbors loaded with Guiness + Stagehands = 1/2 the line sets batten heavy before Intermission. Too bad, I was looking forward to the Sapsis Arbor-Tap with optional DMX module. Randy Whitcomb, TD Price Civic Aud Loveland, CO. ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:02:37 EDT Subject: Re: old gear: was EGA monitors: was Microvision disks several write: >When and where does this happen? Sporadically ---- at the property control dispo yard. Stuff gets sent there when other stages do not pick up on items that are surplused from a given show/location. It may sit around at a local area warehouse for a while until someone decides it is in the way. If an employee happens to be at the yard when something shows up, one can get stuff for pennies on the dollar. When enough stuff piles up (from all operating areas) there is a public auction to clear the lot. Once in a while, when all the planets are aligned just right, I have gotten advance word that something of interest is going away. If it looks useable, there is a formal donation process through Community Relations that can be pursued. Have been able to equip a local church with some lighting gear in this way. Some area schools and community theatres have been recipients. Given the economics where new gear (complete) is far less expensive than the price of it's individual replacement parts (in sum), a lot of the gear might cost more to repair than to buy new. If you have to pay labor rates on top of that.....well, I came to the sad conclusion many years ago that any technology that cost less than $1000 is a disposable item. If anyone is interested in tempting fate, write to me off list. Steve Vanciel Orlando, FL 8O (hint: ears) ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: <118.33a70252.2defeeef [at] aol.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:03:11 EDT Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;) Chip.Wood writes: >Did you see Doonesbury on Sunday? Yes. And while I generally like Doonesbury, I think Sunday's panels were more in the vein of Rhetoric rather than Poetic. Steve Vanciel Orlando, FL ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: <1a2.251be715.2defef59 [at] aol.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:04:57 EDT Subject: Re: Food for thought - caution: irony alert Chris writes: >companies like Mall-Wart, Clear Channel, and Disney (just to name a few) are committing >a social sin, not a federal crime. Sin? Where the Golden Calf is god the only sin is not making a profit. The temple of Wall Street demands it. The investor acolytes demand it. How can mere mortal consumers defy what is decreed? Steve Vanciel Orlando, FL ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:05:22 EDT Subject: Re: Food for thought Chris writes: >Thanks, I guess I have no need to watch the end of the new DVD I just got. But Chris, the volcano scene is *nowhere* near the end. This movie does however have about a hundred serial ending scenes. I promise I won't reveal a single one of them here. Steve Vanciel Orlando, FL ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: <141.2b1a582b.2defef95 [at] aol.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:05:57 EDT Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;) Bruce writes: >What I don't understand is why Disney had the rights in the first place. >Everyone knows Moor's politics. If Disney doesn't like them, why did they >get involved in the first place?? Its a Miramax thing. A semiautonomous outfit to provide cover for the edgier "art" films that do not fit the Disney family image but generate a lot of Oscars and some profits. Steve Vanciel Orlando, FL ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:07:12 EDT Subject: Re: Food for thought... Wal Mart ammo steeve_vajk writes: >But seriously, you sure didn't buy that ammo AT Wal-Mart, because >Michael Moore turned market pressure on them after Columbine, and now >they don't sell guns or ammo. The three Super Wallies around here still sell both. Brand name products at reasonable prices. Steve Vanciel Orlando (and near Kissimmee/StCloud), FL ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: <12d.42abc303.2deff028 [at] aol.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:08:24 EDT Subject: Re: EGA monitors: was Microvision disks Chris writes: >If you were buying your prop-tarts the proper amount of beer... Ah, but there is a specific prohibition on that in the employee policy manual. And, every paper clip has to be approved by five managers and then cross-checked by purchasing against the approved provider list. This is not to say that there are not some creative tactics used from time to time. However, we save them for really important things. Can't disclose more now, have to disconnect and move quickly or the cerebral waveform monitors will be triggered. ;o **** ********* Stylish in Aluminum Foil, Orlando, FL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:25:06 -0700 From: Duncan Mahoney Subject: Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging Message-id: <5.0.2.1.1.20040602192447.00aacf48 [at] email.usc.edu> Big Fred suggests: > Hmmmm... What about a system kinda like a Nautilus machine, but > upside-down, sort of? Picture a lineset where the maximum amount of > stage weights is stored at the top, just under the head block. The lift > lines all run through slots in the weights, all the way down to the > bottom plate. The Nautilus-y part (pin?) wouldn't attach the correct > amount of weight to the lines, it would keep the correct amount *off of > the arbor*. The batten could be loaded on the deck, and then loading > the weight would consist of sticking the pin in the proper hole. Or > something like that. Plus, the weights would be forever captured by the > cables running through them, so they couldn't slip off the arbor. This is a pretty clever idea but you would need to find a way to hold the weights up and off the pin whenever you needed to change the weight. Otherwise all the weight is on the arbor when you pull the pin, assuming you could even pull it out with the weight above it pressing down. I suppose you could use a full arbor worth of stagehands holding down the batten to press the arbor up and take pressure off the pin. (yes, that's right, I said we are going to need at least 1200 pounds of stagehands for this load-in) I haven't done much research on motorized linesets, mainly because they are a bit beyond our budgets, but I do have a question. A skilled counterweight system operator can feel the additional drag or load caused by the moving batten fouling on something and can usually stop before serious damage occurs. Is there a system built in to motorized rigging systems to sense subtle changes in the load while moving? Otherwise I could see little snags becoming really big problems before the operator notices. Duncan Mahoney Technical Director University of Southern California School of Theatre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:32:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Rings (warning: almost completely OT) From: Herrick In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <961FC5E4-B50E-11D8-9EA3-0003934521EC [at] hglightingdesign.com> Indeed Chris that would be the quote!! I knew I liked you for a reason. On Wednesday, Jun 2, 2004, at 18:01 America/New_York, CB wrote: > > >> Yes I am particularly fond of Bakshi's "wizards" but you probably >> even >> know my favorite quote from it anyway. > > "This is a little trick Ma taught me when you weren't around"? > Herrick Goldman Lighting Designer, NYC www.HGLightingDesign.com "To the scores of silent alchemists who wreak their joy in darkness and in light bringing magic to life, we bow most humbly. "-CDS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:34:19 -0700 From: Duncan Mahoney Subject: Re: Bakshi Message-id: <5.0.2.1.1.20040602202518.00aad1c8 [at] email.usc.edu> I've never been called a geek before, other names yes, but geek... I'm honored, I think. I was only somewhat a fan of Bakshi's work until his "Mighty Mouse" hit the air. Sheer genius. Duncan Mahoney Technical Director University of Southern California School of Theatre ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20040602221831.0270e388 [at] mail.DesignRelief.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 22:35:41 -0500 From: Mitch Hefter Subject: Re: Power quality, electrical system specs In-Reply-To: References: On 6/2/2004, Frank Wood wrote: >I am baffled. I read the article, and got no information from it. OK, your >eectrical distrubution systems are hidden from me, but three-phaase, >whethwer ay >220V or 440V is not. > >Frank Wood Frank - this goes back to the several discussions in past years regarding harmonics and the reality that neutrals can and sometimes do carry more current than "appears" to be put into the system - i.e., the canceling of currents in the neutral in linear systems does not occur the same way as in non-linear systems. Also, as the article points out, there are more harmonics these days due to increased used of arc sources (common in most moving lights) and electronics systems of all sorts - the switching power supply being the culprit. You are right - the difference in voltages between North America and most of the rest of the world is only a minor factor. . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mitch Hefter Office: Entertainment Technology / a Division of Genlyte Thomas mhefter [at] genlyte.com http://www.etdimming.com http://www.lolcontrols.com http://www.vari-lite.com http://www.genlyte.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 23:47:19 -0400 From: Michael Powers Subject: Re: Counterweight systems Message-id: <1086234439.40be9f47985bb [at] mail-www3.oit.umass.edu> "Matthew Breton" wrote: <> Damn, and I thought you were kidding around! If you're going to bring Guinness into it then I know you really mean it. << And about as serious as I would be in suggesting the stagehands could top the saltwater dimmer vats you mention off with (ewww!) sweat. >> Actually, there was one mention of a stagehand topping off a vat with something "other" than sweat ..... while the power was on. Hmmmmmm, never was a mention of a second person doing it that way. Reminds me of an old Will Rogers quote..... which I'll refrain from repeating at this time. Something about electric fences and a learning curve. Michael Michael Powers, Technical Director UMass Theatre Department 112 FAC West 151 Presidents Drive, Ofc.2 Amherst, Ma. 01003-9331 413-545-6821 voice 413-577-0025 fax mfpowers [at] theater.umass.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:50:04 -0700 Subject: Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging Message-ID: <20040602.205017.2620.2.ladesigners [at] juno.com> From: Richard Niederberg Remember that due to cable weight, the counterweight load required decreases as the cable moves through the headblock to the arbor side, and any loadcell, amperage measuring device, or device that is programmed to sense a subtle change in load due to a fouled condition will have to be programmed to factor out the change of load attributable to cable weight changing places relative to the balance point. /s/ Richard > A skilled counterweight system operator can feel the > additional drag or load caused by the moving batten > fouling on something and can usually stop before > serious damage occurs. Is there a system built in to > motorized rigging systems to sense subtle changes in > the load while moving? > Duncan Mahoney ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.0.20040602231045.0430c180 [at] mail.insightbb.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 23:15:43 -0500 From: Mike Brubaker Subject: Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging In-Reply-To: References: Hoffend's Vortek system and, presumably, JR Clancy's PowerLift system have load sensors on each line. These sensors are coupled with a sophisticated control system. The system is "taught" what the load should look like as it moves through the full range of travel and speed. Once taught, the control system then knows what to look for and can stop the system in the event that the sensors report a condition outside certain parameters (x number of pounds, for example). That help? Mike At 10:50 PM 6/2/2004, Richard Niederberg wrote: > Remember that due to cable weight, the counterweight load >required decreases as the cable moves through the headblock to the arbor >side, and any loadcell, amperage measuring device, or device that is >programmed to sense a subtle change in load due to a fouled condition >will have to be programmed to factor out the change of load attributable >to cable weight changing places relative to the balance point. >/s/ Richard > > > A skilled counterweight system operator can feel the > > additional drag or load caused by the moving batten > > fouling on something and can usually stop before > > serious damage occurs. Is there a system built in to > > motorized rigging systems to sense subtle changes in > > the load while moving? > > Duncan Mahoney ------------------------------ Message-ID: <40BEA73B.20707 [at] fuse.net> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:21:15 -0400 From: Stuart Wheaton Subject: Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging References: In-Reply-To: Richard Niederberg wrote: > > Remember that due to cable weight, the counterweight load > required decreases as the cable moves through the headblock to the arbor > side, and any loadcell, amperage measuring device, or device that is > programmed to sense a subtle change in load due to a fouled condition > will have to be programmed to factor out the change of load attributable > to cable weight changing places relative to the balance point. Seems simple, you run the thing once or twice while watching it carefully, and tell it that the Strains, loads, or power consumption that it saw in that run is, plus or minus some small amount, the defined 'normal' for that cue, and if it deviates from that profile when running that cue in the future, Stop and ask for instructions. Furthermore, you could record these values every cue and generate statistics of which loads were slowly creeping up as bearings failed or casters got clogged with feathers. Stuart ------------------------------ From: "Matthew Breton" Subject: Re: Counterweight systems Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 01:00:18 -0400 Message-ID: >Actually, there was one mention of a stagehand topping off a vat >with something "other" than sweat ..... This was obviously *after* the trip to the brewery in the fly galley. ;) Didn't the "can you get electrocuted by urinating on the third rail" urban myth make it onto some TV show or another? (And, if so, since I barely have time to watch anymore, could someone tell me the results?) Matthew Breton Technical Director Green Street Studios _________________________________________________________________ Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from MSN House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Jason" References: Subject: Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:20:25 -0700 Message-ID: Duncan, the last motorize system install I did wouldn't care what it hit as the specs called for it to be out of balance 2500 lbs either way, we test the system to 5000 lbs which was pushing the system and it hit its marks with is 1/32 of inch every time out of balance, but only one speed and had an arbor if one wanted to keep it in balance Funny thing is that they bought an extra 100,000 lbs more than the contract and its still sitting out back on pallets, last time I was by the theater and this theater runs 7 days a week 5 to 10 shows a day. With a computer over a PLC type system it would be super easy tell if got heavier or lighter with all the sensors out there these days. Variable speed system few more sensors. This for an AC system would never use DC in this type of systems to much maintained. Fluid power system total different story............ As for control, if you put a electrician on to operate it/2 to an hour to learn it. Put a decent lighting board operator on it 5 to 10 mins. Put a carp on it 1 to 2 days, seems to be a high learning curve when the ropes move on their own. My rule of thumb if you can break it from the keyboard something is wrong. But there are multi level pass words so the high level password can over ride all soft stops. From: "Duncan Mahoney" > I haven't done much research on motorized linesets, mainly because they are > a bit beyond our budgets, but I do have a question. > > A skilled counterweight system operator can feel the additional drag or > load caused by the moving batten fouling on something and can usually stop > before serious damage occurs. Is there a system built in to motorized > rigging systems to sense subtle changes in the load while > moving? Otherwise I could see little snags becoming really big problems > before the operator notices. > > > Duncan Mahoney > Technical Director > University of Southern California > School of Theatre > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <001101c4492a$a50f1660$33ecbed0 [at] hppav> From: "Joe Meils" References: Subject: Re: Bakshi Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:21:37 -0500 ...and here I thought it might be, "I wonder if I packed my scotch?" Or it could have been "I'll be a crinkled Frazetta!" My favorite line from Mighty Mouse has always been: "We'll settle this the American way! With our fists!" Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duncan Mahoney" To: "Stagecraft" Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:34 PM Subject: Re: Bakshi > For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending > your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at: > http://stagecraft.theprices.net/ > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > > I've never been called a geek before, other names yes, but geek... > > I'm honored, I think. > > I was only somewhat a fan of Bakshi's work until his "Mighty Mouse" hit the > air. Sheer genius. > > > > > Duncan Mahoney > Technical Director > University of Southern California > School of Theatre > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <085701c4492c$c7e85fa0$19e2f4cc [at] oemcomputer> From: "Tom Heemskerk" References: Subject: Re: Counterweight systems Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:36:47 -0700 > > >Actually, there was one mention of a stagehand topping off a vat > >with something "other" than sweat ..... > > This was obviously *after* the trip to the brewery in the fly galley. ;) > Local hemp-house folklore mentions a similar method of adding just a wee bit of weight to the sandbags... There is also a story, probably related, of hiding beer bottles in sandbags, which of course would become problematic when the fly crew got thirsty.... th ------------------------------ From: "Jason" References: Subject: Re: Counterweight systems Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:38:29 -0700 Message-ID: The Carps would never be off the loading bridge ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Breton" To: "Stagecraft" Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:00 PM Subject: Re: Counterweight systems > For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending > your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at: > http://stagecraft.theprices.net/ > --------------------------------------------------- > > > >Actually, there was one mention of a stagehand topping off a vat > >with something "other" than sweat ..... > > This was obviously *after* the trip to the brewery in the fly galley. ;) > > Didn't the "can you get electrocuted by urinating on the third rail" urban > myth make it onto some TV show or another? (And, if so, since I barely have > time to watch anymore, could someone tell me the results?) > > > Matthew Breton > Technical Director > Green Street Studios > > _________________________________________________________________ > Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from MSN > House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:47:17 -0700 Subject: Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging Message-ID: <20040602.234756.2572.0.ladesigners [at] juno.com> From: Richard Niederberg OK, but you still have the situation where huge, thick curtains absorb huge amounts of moisture in areas that are subject to sudden unpredictable bouts of high humidity after you've programmed all of the parameters into the system. Or on those rare and unfortunate occasions where the load radically increases when the main drape is drenched by the fire sprinklers or by some sort of flood, so that the load exceeds the rated capacity of the equipment or of the loadcell installed to accurately sense the weight as part of an automated system. Of course, if the latter happens, you have items of far larger concern to consider first... /s/ Richard > Seems simple, you run the thing once or twice while watching > it carefully, and tell it that the Strains, loads, or power > consumption that it saw in that run is, plus or minus some > small amount, the defined 'normal' for that cue, and if it > deviates from that profile when running that cue in the > future, Stop and ask for instructions. > Stuart ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20040602212714.02794b08 [at] mail.ericminton.biz> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 21:29:17 -1000 From: Eric Minton Subject: Question about header In-Reply-To: References: Aloha Could this header become a footer it would make the message easier to preview. At 12:55 AM 6/2/2004, you wrote: >For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending >your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at: > http://stagecraft.theprices.net/ >--------------------------------------------------- Mahalo Eric ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #28 ****************************