Return-Path: X-Processed-By: Virex 7 on prxy.net X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.1.8 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #69 Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:01:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #69 1. Re: ISO theatre museum other worthy recipent... by IAEG [at] aol.com 2. Hemp House Rigging by "Robert Ashley" 3. Re: manual vs automated ( was Hoffend Vortek ) by IAEG [at] aol.com 4. Re: Program copy resource by IAEG [at] aol.com 5. Re: Hemp House Rigging by usctd [at] columbia.sc 6. Clapton Tour by "Stephen E. Rees" 7. plays as scenes in movies by "RICHARD FINKELSTEIN" 8. Re: Hemp House Rigging by "Stephen E. Rees" 9. Re: plays as scenes in movies by "Jon Ares" 10. Re: Clapton Tour by "Michael Eddy" 11. Re: plays as scenes in movies by "Paul Schreiner" 12. Re: Clapton Tour by "Stephen E. Rees" 13. Re: plays as scenes in movies by "Paul Schreiner" 14. Re: Clapton Tour by IAEG [at] aol.com 15. Re: plays as scenes in movies by "Stephen E. Rees" 16. Re: plays as scenes in movies by James Kosmatka 17. Re: plays as scenes in movies by "Jon Ares" 18. Re: plays as scenes in movies by Richard Niederberg 19. Re: plays as scenes in movies by Pat Kight 20. Re: plays as scenes in movies by "Jon Ares" 21. Re: Hoffend Vortek system by "Kacey Fisher" 22. Re: plays as scenes in movies by Gion DeFrancesco 23. Re: Hoffend Vortek system by Bsapsis [at] aol.com 24. Re: Hoffend Vortek system by Mike Brubaker 25. Re: Hoffend Vortek system by Mike Brubaker 26. winch question by Jerry Durand 27. Re: plays as scenes in movies by MissWisc [at] aol.com 28. Re: plays as scenes in movies by IAEG [at] aol.com 29. Vortek - Thanks for views and another inquiry by "H-High-S (Ferreira, Jr.)" 30. Re: winch question by Bsapsis [at] aol.com 31. Re: winch question by Mike Brubaker 32. Re: winch question by Jerry Durand 33. Re: [spamcatcher] Re: winch question by Jerry Durand 34. Re: plays as scenes in movies by "Douglas McCracken" 35. Re: Hoffend Vortek system by "Jason" 36. Re: winch question by "Jason" *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: <85.10569c6a.2e23dcf6 [at] aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:24:22 EDT Subject: Re: ISO theatre museum other worthy recipent... In a message dated 7/9/04 11:56:11 AM, barney [at] JosephCHansen.com writes: << They are ready to be retired. The Marquette University's Museum has expressed interest in the past (the have other Dunkle work where he worked with Salvidor Dali). Are there other worthy recipients that I should consider? Barney Simon Joseph C Hansen Company, Inc. Drapes Drops and Dance Floors NYC >> years ago (20 or so) I saw an exhibit at the De Young Museum in San Francisco of "ballet art" original set models, costume renderings, original costumes, a few obligatory Degas' etc etc on a large wall was a backdrop, from the "original" Balanchine Concerto Barroco. We always think of that as one of the most typical of the Balanchine leotard ballets, minimal costumes, no scenery, and (hopefully) Jean Rosenthal ( not the Ronnie Bates version ) lighting. Well this is a full greek temple and landscape scene, not a large backdrop (certainly wouldn't have worked at the Old Met) and not what we would ever think today of putting behind this Balanchine classic Yya see how times and tastes change ? most balletomanes today would have NO clue that Concerto Barrocco ever had a set , and would think it blashphemous if you were to suggest one. The drop was credited I am almost certain to Eugene Berman. I don't recall whose collection it was on loan from, or if it belonged to the DeYoung but I would be interested to know. The Philadelphia Museum of Arts has a Dali ( not a very interesting one I feel ) backdrop hanging in the western lobby, What happened to the Picasso Ballet Russe "Parade" act curtain that used to hang in the lobby of what, The Four Seasons restaurant in NYC ? ( might have the restaurant wrong, , not certain ) is that still there ? in a private collection ? on display somewhere ? I'd love to know. best keith arsenault iaeg tampa, fl very best, Keith Arsenault President IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida 813 831 3465 Mr. Arsenault's Office 813 205 0893 Mr. Arsenault's Cellular www.iaeginc.com ------------------------------ From: "Robert Ashley" Subject: Hemp House Rigging Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:29:54 -0400 Message-ID:
Hello,
 
I've recently taken a job working at Va. Stage Co. which is a hemp house.  And I was wondering if anyone knew of any good hemp house rigging "handbooks" or websites.  I know the basics but I'm not sure that I know all of the correct terms or any of the "little tricks" to make the rigging safer and easier.  Any helpful hints as to where to find these resources would be wonderful.
 
Thanks
Robert Ashley
------------------------------ From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: <1a0.26ca859e.2e23df73 [at] aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:34:59 EDT Subject: Re: manual vs automated ( was Hoffend Vortek ) In a message dated 7/11/04 12:26:53 PM, mdbrubaker [at] insightbb.com writes: << On the other hand, one of the reasons to consider powered rigging is a situation that is far more likely--what happens when a lineset is out of balance and goes runaway. I've seen linesets run away (in professional halls, too), and I've seen the aftermath of linesets that ran. I have not seen that happen on a powered rigging system. What happens if a controller or motor dies is...nothing. No falling scenery, no hurt people. Mike >> I did the opening night of a new venue in Colombia South America about 20 years ago In a land where labour is inexpensive (trained labour is another story) they had installed an "American made automated rigging system" ( I will let you figure out from what company) For the Gala Opening less than two-thirds of the line sets were operational. One of the line sets stopped working during the final dress causing changes in the actual Gala performance. The closest spare parts / authorized service personnel was in a Northern / Midwest US City. I have not re visited that venue in the intervening years, I wouldn't be surprised if it is a "dead hung" venue now. Without going in to a long rant I will say that this same venue was the dumping ground for a couple of US sound and lighting technology companies. Consoles and equipment that had been busts in the market place in the US were what this entire complex was equipped with. The first electric position was downstage of the Act Curtain, and the hanging pipe positioned that no ellipsoidal could be used for fear it would rip the front of the Act Curtain as it passed by. Thankfully I can say that the design of the venue was NOT done by an American firm. I can tell you story after story of South American venues being victimized by "ugly american" sale personnel, but that's another posting very best, Keith Arsenault IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida ------------------------------ From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: <1d6.25e6b44a.2e23e1f0 [at] aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:45:36 EDT Subject: Re: Program copy resource Many times in writing program copy for organizations that had over due influence by members of boards of directors, or from over zealous directors I would be placed in the position of listing credits in ridiculous order or just be faced with copy layout from "volunteers" that was just ludicrous. I finally solved it I kept a copy next to my desk of a Lincoln Center Playbill, , actually two, one from a Met Opera performance and one of an American Ballet Theatre performance. That became a styles guide, any questions as to relative type size, order of credits, order of biography etc etc were solved by a simple look see at either of these programs. Many times in dealing with less than professional surroundings there have been questions about a having the US and State flag besides the stage b superfluous curtain speeches before and or at intermission c anything "weird" I would just turn to someone who was championing that inappropriate activity and say "let's think, how would they do it at the MET" ? that usually was the end of the argument very best, Keith Arsenault President IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida 813 831 3465 Mr. Arsenault's Office 813 205 0893 Mr. Arsenault's Cellular www.iaeginc.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1835.129.252.241.105.1089640636.squirrel [at] webmail.columbia.sc> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Hemp House Rigging From: usctd [at] columbia.sc Jay O. Glerum's "Stage Rigging Handbook" is the most complete book that I know of. Not only does it give a great primer on hemp rigging, but also resultants and mechanical advantage which are soooo important in that kind of house(or any house for that matter!). You should also have a good knot book handy. I have found Budsworth and Dalton's "The book of Knots- How to Tie 200 Practical Knots" to be very useful and easy to use. Someone on the list recomended it to me. -- Eric Rouse TD-University of SC, Columbia Freelance Foyboy > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > >;http://stagecraft.theprices.net/ ------------------------------ Message-ID: <40F29F1D.2010503 [at] fredonia.edu> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:24:29 -0400 From: "Stephen E. Rees" Subject: Clapton Tour Hi All, Had occasion to see Eric Clapton with Robert Randolph in Buffalo last Friday and have a question for anyone who might be out with that tour. Can you tell me what the drop behind the blackout drape was that was revealed a couple times during the show?? It appeared to be a randomly hung collection of used painter's drop cloths but it was hard to tell from the distance of the sound mix position 45 rows back on the floor. It took light REALLY well and had great visual impact for such a simple thing. Just curious if anyone knows. TIA Regards, Steve Rees, TD SUNY-Fredonia ------------------------------ From: "RICHARD FINKELSTEIN" Cc: rfinkels [at] msn.com Subject: plays as scenes in movies Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:29:53 -0400 Message-ID: OK. It's summer and time for a fun challenge" And I'd love to include the results as an Artslynx resource. I have always, as a set designer, been fascinated by movies that have a sequence or more shot in a theatre with a show going on. I always thought that a list of such shows would be great to have! Of course there are movies that are really filmed stage shows....we could list those too or even theatre-dance movies about a theatre/dance company or artist. Of course these have performance shots. But the ones that most interest me are those where there are isolated theatre performance scenes. So whichever of these three categories, send me suggestions of my list. Feel free to annotate. Here are a few to start with....... Movies with isolated theatre performance scenes: Bergagman's "Fanny and Alexander" - includes a beautiful scene of a 19th century theatre show with great period effects Movies on theatre topics which show live shows within: The turning point Topsy Turvey The Dresser The Red Shoes (you can see Massine dancing!) Movies of shows as though they are performed on stage: Stop the world I want to get Off Oh Calcutta "Making of" theatre pieces: "Moon over Broadway" profiling the difficulties with creating "Moon over Buffalo" ------------------------------ Message-ID: <40F2A23E.7090607 [at] fredonia.edu> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:37:50 -0400 From: "Stephen E. Rees" Subject: Re: Hemp House Rigging References: Robert, If you can find a copy of "Scenery for the The Theatre" by Harold Burris-Meyer and Edward C. Cole, you will find lots of good basic information concerning this topic. I think it might be out of print by now but was a valuable resource in it's day - the '70s. Regards, Steve Rees, TD SUNY-Fredonia Robert Ashley wrote: And I was wondering if anyone knew of any good hemp house > rigging "handbooks" or websites. ------------------------------ Message-ID: <000601c4681e$6e2f07a0$0201a8c0 [at] BRUTUS> From: "Jon Ares" References: Subject: Re: plays as scenes in movies Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 07:42:16 -0700 > The turning point > Topsy Turvey > The Dresser > The Red Shoes (you can see Massine dancing!) > The first one that I'd 'nominate' you already put on your list: "The Red Shoes" - one of my favs. So gorgeous! Besides Massine's excellent dancing (and his outstanding choreography for his "Shoemaker" character) the sets (for the performance) and paintings are wonderful. Hein Heckroth's paintings are terrific, and if you get the DVD, you're treated to more images by Heckroth for the movie. You can even watch the ballet of the Red Shoes with an alternate angle: Heckroth's painted storyboards. If anyone is interested in this great movie, I highly recommend checking out the DVD - it also has stuff on Scorsese's personal collection of Red Shoes memorabilia, and the film was transfered and retimed under the supervision of the original DP, Jack Cardiff. Plus, Anton Walbrook is a study in task-focused acting. Another movie to add to your list, Richard: "Amadeus." All those opera scenes. -- Jon Ares www.hevanet.com/acreative ------------------------------ From: "Michael Eddy" Subject: Re: Clapton Tour Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:49:50 -0400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Had occasion to see Eric Clapton with Robert Randolph in Buffalo last Friday and have a question for anyone who might be out with that tour. Can you tell me what the drop behind the blackout drape was that was revealed a couple times during the show?? It appeared to be a randomly hung collection of used painter's drop cloths but it was hard to tell from the distance of the sound mix position 45 rows back on the floor. It took light REALLY well and had great visual impact for such a simple thing. I saw the show in NYC and am writing about it for the next issue. What an amazing show and I loved Robert Randolph. The drop was fabricated by Atomic Design out of Lititz PA. Atomic Designs Inc 10 Wynfield Drive, Lititz, PA 17543 (717) 626-8301 http://www.atomicdesigninc.com Someone on one of the Clapton fansites described it as 'Oh, that's where all of my socks and sheets went that get lost in the dryer.' The LD is Dave Maxwell from Ireland, who is coming off the road to start a family and he runs a drape company in County Wicklow Ireland, called Drapeage. www.drapeage.ie. I could think of a lot of worse places to have a company! HTH, Michael S. Eddy Lighting&Sound America michael [at] plasa.org www.lightingandsoundamerica.com ------------------------------ Message-Id: <200407121457.i6CEvZcC010049 [at] webmail.longwood.edu> From: "Paul Schreiner" Subject: Re: plays as scenes in movies Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:57:28 -0400 In-Reply-To: > Another movie to add to your list, Richard: "Amadeus." All > those opera scenes. You beat me to it on this one. It's been quite some time (and if I could remember what my memory was like I'd probably be able to say with more certainty that it isn't what it was), but isn't there a scene from something at the Met in "Moonstruck"? ------------------------------ Message-ID: <40F2A7C7.9050207 [at] fredonia.edu> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:01:27 -0400 From: "Stephen E. Rees" Subject: Re: Clapton Tour References: Thanks Michael, for your prompt reply. Checked out Atomic's site and was very impressed. Regards, Steve Rees Michael Eddy wrote: > I saw the show in NYC and am writing about it for the next issue. What an > amazing show and I loved Robert Randolph. The drop was fabricated by Atomic > Design out of Lititz PA. > > Atomic Designs Inc > 10 Wynfield Drive, Lititz, PA 17543 > (717) 626-8301 > http://www.atomicdesigninc.com > > Someone on one of the Clapton fansites described it as 'Oh, that's where all > of my socks and sheets went that get lost in the dryer.' > ------------------------------ Message-Id: <200407121504.i6CF4MdB010267 [at] webmail.longwood.edu> From: "Paul Schreiner" Subject: Re: plays as scenes in movies Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:04:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: > It's been quite some time (and if I could remember what my > memory was like I'd probably be able to say with more > certainty that it isn't what it was), but isn't there a scene > from something at the Met in "Moonstruck"? Der. Always happens. Give myself another minute or two and I answer my own question. "Moonstruck", IIRC, has a scene from "La Boheme" in it. Of course, if I'm completely mistaken and smoking something in my pipe other than the usual (legal) stuff, you have permission to send me to my room or something. ------------------------------ From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: <1e8.24f18590.2e2408f2 [at] aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:32:02 EDT Subject: Re: Clapton Tour In a message dated 7/12/04 7:52:41 AM, michael [at] plasa.org writes: << I saw the show in NYC and am writing about it for the next issue. What an amazing show and I loved Robert Randolph. The drop was fabricated by Atomic Design out of Lititz PA. >> from the description that is what I was about to offer as an "educated" guess! very best, Keith Arsenault IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida ------------------------------ Message-ID: <40F2AFCB.7000404 [at] fredonia.edu> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:35:39 -0400 From: "Stephen E. Rees" Subject: Re: plays as scenes in movies References: Hi, There was an opening scene in "Breaking Away" that took place at a production of Aida - supposedly at IU but really filmed at the Univ. of Georgia. A complete set was built and a cast rehearsed and about 15 seconds of it wound up in the film. Steve Rees Paul Schreiner wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > >>Another movie to add to your list, Richard: "Amadeus." All >>those opera scenes. > > > You beat me to it on this one. > > It's been quite some time (and if I could remember what my memory was like > I'd probably be able to say with more certainty that it isn't what it was), > but isn't there a scene from something at the Met in "Moonstruck"? ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20040712154344.65176.qmail [at] web50509.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:43:44 -0700 (PDT) From: James Kosmatka Subject: Re: plays as scenes in movies In-Reply-To: Off the top of my head... Mary Jane is in Earnest in the new Spider-Man sequel (a clever analogy to the double-identities and love). --- RICHARD FINKELSTEIN wrote: > I have always, as a set designer, been fascinated by > movies that have a > sequence or more shot in a theatre with a show going > on. I always thought > that a list of such shows would be great to have! ------------------------------ Message-ID: <001201c46827$7a6ddc90$0201a8c0 [at] BRUTUS> From: "Jon Ares" References: Subject: Re: plays as scenes in movies Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:47:02 -0700 > There was an opening scene in "Breaking Away" that took place at a > production of Aida - supposedly at IU but really filmed at the Univ. of > Georgia. A complete set was built and a cast rehearsed and about 15 > seconds of it wound up in the film. Don't know if Richard would count "Waiting for Guffman...." They wrote and performed it as a play. According to the Director's Commentary, their 'show' was about an hour long, and they rehearsed it and performed it (in front of a live audience in the gym) something like 3 times, while it was shot linearly. They commented on having all the usual live performance nerves, etc, singing and dancing in front of a live audience. And let's talk about reality! :) For a community and production with no budget, where did they get that black scrim they're rigging in one scene? And did you see that apron extension on the gymnatorium stage? 2x4 legs about every 10". My favorite is the orchestra though. How can 5 people sound like a 40 piece orch? And they're damn good for being in the middle o' nowhere. (But I do love the shot of the trumpet player/timanist.) In the deleted song ("Bulging River") I love the rain effect - strings of videotape glinting in the light? -- Jon Ares www.hevanet.com/acreative ------------------------------ Cc: rfinkels [at] msn.com Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 08:48:27 -0700 Subject: Re: plays as scenes in movies Message-ID: <20040712.084900.2836.1.ladesigners [at] juno.com> From: Richard Niederberg Misc. Theatre scenes in Movies; please feel free to redistribute or eliminate as appropriate: "Foul Play" -Mikado- (Chase/Hawn) "Citizen Kane" famous 'pan up' to stagehand scene "Chorus Line" (Douglas) "The Rabbit of Seville" & "That's Opera Doc" "To Be or Not to Be" (Brooks/Bancroft) "Showgirls" (Berkey/McLaughlin) "Holiday Inn" (Crosby, et al) "Yankee Doodle Dandy" (Cagney) /s/ Richard > Movies on theatre topics which show live shows within: > The turning point > Topsy Turvey > The Dresser > The Red Shoes (you can see Massine dancing!) > Movies of shows as though they are performed on stage: > Stop the world I want to get Off > Oh Calcutta > "Making of" theatre pieces: > "Moon over Broadway" profiling the difficulties with > creating "Moon over Buffalo" ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ------------------------------ Message-ID: <40F2B667.2090109 [at] peak.org> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:03:51 -0700 From: Pat Kight Subject: Re: plays as scenes in movies References: In-Reply-To: RICHARD FINKELSTEIN wrote: > Movies with isolated theatre performance scenes: > Shakespeare in Love! > Movies on theatre topics which show live shows within: > > The turning point > Topsy Turvey > The Dresser > The Red Shoes (you can see Massine dancing!) Cosi - terrific Australian film about a young amateur theatrical director who stages "Cosi Fan Tutte" in a hospital for the mentally ill. Waiting for Guffman, of course. Moulin Rouge, sort of. > Movies of shows as though they are performed on stage: > > Stop the world I want to get Off > Oh Calcutta > > > "Making of" theatre pieces: > > "Moon over Broadway" profiling the difficulties with creating "Moon > over Buffalo" Looking for Richard - Al Pacino's 1996 thoughtful piece on putting together a production of Richard III. All about the acting and character development, but still ... ------------------------------ Message-ID: <002301c4682b$a97a6630$0201a8c0 [at] BRUTUS> From: "Jon Ares" References: Subject: Re: plays as scenes in movies Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:16:59 -0700 > Looking for Richard - Al Pacino's 1996 thoughtful piece on putting > together a production of Richard III. All about the acting and character > development, but still ... > ...Which reminds me of "The Dresser." -- Jon Ares www.hevanet.com/acreative ------------------------------ From: "Kacey Fisher" Subject: Re: Hoffend Vortek system Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:01:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > 2. I have not heard of any limitations of length of batten for > the Vortek > system. The original design was only 6 lines, but even that > wouldn't have > created at 42 foot limit. Mike, We have a church that we work with (along with Delbert) here that is over 80' wide. I think i's almost 120' but I could be off. They were discussing a Vortek system but were told about the limit. Not sure if the limit was exactly 42' but the only way they were going to be able to have one was to double the system on the other side. So, lineset 1 would be controlled by two different motors and be split down the middle. Could be a neat way to control things in terms of SL/SR, but there was no way to connect the controls together so that batten 1a and 1b would travel together. Sincerely, Kacey Fisher President, Fisher Theatrical ------------------------------ Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:18:10 -0400 From: Gion DeFrancesco Subject: Re: plays as scenes in movies Re: plays as scenes in movies
I have always, as a set designer, been fascinated by movies that have a sequence or more shot in a theatre with a show going on.  I always thought that a list of such shows would be great to have!

Dead Poet's Society (Midsummer Night's Dream)

The film of A Little Night Music (in addition to the play-within-a-play scene that's in the musical, I remember the film being framed as a stage performance - shots of stagehands moving cutout trees around during the opening waltz melds into "reality")

Camp (2003) (The musical theatre sequences are actually the best part of the film)

There's a great segment in the film of Pirates of Penzance (Ronstadt, Kline et al.) where an added chase scene interrupts a local (and horrible!) production of "Pinafore"

The Goodbye Girl (Richard III)

The old MGM composer "biography" movies try to recreate original productions of stage musicals: Till The Clouds Roll By (Jerome Kern), Words and Music (Rodgers and Hart) come to mind...








-- 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Gion DeFrancesco
Assistant Professor of Theatre/Scene Designer
MUT Production Manager
Miami University
131 Center for Performing Arts
Oxford, OH 45056
513.529.8318

On the web at http://arts.muohio.edu/defranga

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"There are no hopeless situations; there are only men who have grown hopeless about them." Clare Boothe Luce
------------------------------ From: Bsapsis [at] aol.com Message-ID: <193.2ba720d6.2e24304e [at] aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:19:58 EDT Subject: Re: Hoffend Vortek system In a message dated 7/12/04 2:06:17 PM, Kacey [at] FisherTheatrical.com writes: << We have a church that we work with (along with Delbert) here that is over 80' wide. I think i's almost 120' but I could be off. They were discussing a Vortek system but were told about the limit. Not sure if the limit was exactly 42' but the only way they were going to be able to have one was to double the system on the other side. So, lineset 1 would be controlled by two different motors and be split down the middle. Could be a neat way to control things in terms of SL/SR, but there was no way to connect the controls together so that batten 1a and 1b would travel together. >> OK, As I've noted before, I've not seen the Vortek system. However, there has to be a batten length limit because there can only be a finite number of loft blocks in the system and the winch drum can only accept a finite number of lines. Also, the drum can only accept a finite amount of cable. The idea being to create a device that is small enough to allow for 9" centers means there has to be limitations. This would be true of ANY system that relied on a cable drum and loft block style for lifting. 42' sound right as that would be a 5- line set. 5 lines at 1/4" (or is it 3/16"?) with a travel distance of 40' will take up a fair amount of drum width. Bill S. Sapsis Rigging, Inc. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile We stand behind, and under, our work. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.0.20040712141416.05ddb800 [at] mail.insightbb.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:19:41 -0500 From: Mike Brubaker Subject: Re: Hoffend Vortek system In-Reply-To: References: This is very good to know! A couple of other questions that are, I expect, relevant: 1. How much travel? 2. At what capacity? Standard Vortek uses 3/16" cable with a lineset capacity of 1000#. The controls that I've seen would allow you to synchronize battens 1a and 1b. However, the operator would still see two discreet battens, right? Maybe lineset submasters should be built into the control system. Think about, say, a flying ceiling where you might need a bunch of battens to move at the same time and rate. Just thinking out loud. Mike At 01:01 PM 7/12/2004, Kacey Fisher wrote: > > 2. I have not heard of any limitations of length of batten for > > the Vortek > > system. The original design was only 6 lines, but even that > > wouldn't have > > created at 42 foot limit. > >a Vortek system but were told about the limit. Not sure if the limit was >exactly 42' but the only way they were going to be able to have one was to >double the system on the other side. So, lineset 1 would be controlled by >two different motors and be split down the middle. Could be a neat way to >control things in terms of SL/SR, but there was no way to connect the >controls together so that batten 1a and 1b would travel together. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.0.20040712142009.05dfe5b0 [at] mail.insightbb.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:27:50 -0500 From: Mike Brubaker Subject: Re: Hoffend Vortek system In-Reply-To: References: Steve, The big difference between the Vortek (and, presumably, similar systems) and traditional powered rigging (hydraulic, winch, etc) is load sensing. As a part of the hanging process, you, the operator, "teach" the control system what the load hanging from the batten looks like as the batten moves through its travel. If, then, the load varies in either direction (lighter/heavier) from this learned profile by some amount (set by you as the operator)--say, 2 pounds, the set stops. The situation you describe should be avoidable with the Vortek, as there would be a significant change in the loading from that the control system was taught. I believe that rigging systems like this (load sensing, preset controls, etc) have been in use in some of the larger halls in Europe and in Las Vegas for years--the big difference being that these were fully custom installations. Hoffend is selling this as almost an "off-the-shelf" product. Mike At 03:35 PM 7/11/2004, Stephen Litterst wrote: >switched linesets but forgot to turn off the previous line, so when he hit >the go button, he ripped apart a leg that had been attached to the deck. > >Minor situation, minor damage, but a live operator would have noticed the >increased weight on the line, even if they hadn't seen the leg. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20040712132343.026e5800 [at] localhost> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:31:00 -0700 From: Jerry Durand Subject: winch question First, I'm not a rigger so forgive me if this sounds dumb... Most of the horizontal width taken up by a winch is due to the size of the drum since it has to be big enough to wind all the cable on. It seems to me the following should work: Get two smaller diameter drums with groves on them (think a spline like a wide notch-belt pulley), Place one above the other with a reasonable gap between them, Place a wide notch belt around the two drums/pulleys, Attach the cable to one edge of the notch belt, Motor drive to either drum/pulley. Now, the cable (guided and cushioned by the belt) wraps over both pulleys, allowing the storage of a large amount of cable with a narrow horizontal profile. You wind up with a tall, skinny drum. ---------- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886 fax: +1 408 356-4659 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:48:53 -0400 From: MissWisc [at] aol.com Subject: Re: plays as scenes in movies Message-ID: <68F88E36.4C9EEE1F.007B9F2A [at] aol.com> Would you want to include "Center Stage" about the ballet world with several ballet scenes included? King and I (small house) All the Judy Garland/Mickey Roney "lets put on a play" shows. Kristi ------------------------------ From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:52:00 EDT Subject: Re: plays as scenes in movies In a message dated 7/12/04 1:50:22 PM, MissWisc [at] aol.com writes: << All the Judy Garland/Mickey Roney "lets put on a play" shows. >> i for one was trying to forget about those, , , very best, Keith Arsenault IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20040712162623.0280ce70 [at] mail.kingphilip.org> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:53:07 -0400 From: "H-High-S (Ferreira, Jr.)" Subject: Vortek - Thanks for views and another inquiry Hi everyone: It has been very instructive to read all of the on-list and off-list postings I have received concerning the Vortek system and the pros & cons of motorized vs. counterweight rigging. I feel a bit better informed about this, though there is still a long way to go before final decisions are made. Having theatre professionals and other educators jump into this discussion/debate at least gives me the chance to be better informed than I would have otherwise been, especially in such a short time. Thank you to everyone who offered views and information from their own experiences. In an unrelated matter, last year, under threat of being shut down by the town building and electrical inspector, we had to have a complete set of face plates for our Kleigl SafePatch patch panel replaced to prevent shocks/electrocutions/etc. Luckily, we found a local plastics manufacturer who easily duplicated all of our four-hole and six-hole face-plates and, of all things, donated them to us. However, we found ourselves with 10 intact, original Bakelite face-plates that are in good condition. When we bought the only two originals we could find in a vain attempt to appease the building and electrical gods (we really needed 6 - 7 at the time), we had to shell out $100 apiece. My question is, is there still a market for these things and, if so, where can I sell them to at least recoup what we had to pay three years ago? Also, with the impending renovation/reconstruction of our school and theatre facility, We will have spare parts galore for a sixty circuit Kleigl SafePatch patch panel, including single-pole connectors, connector switches, and, of course, the new face-plates we now have. Same question, is there/will there be a market for these items and, if so, where/how can I go about selling it off to obtain a bit of extra funding for new equipment not provided for in the construction/theatre budget for the new facility? Thanks for any thoughts/suggestions. Cordially, Joe Ferreira Joseph J. Ferreira, Jr. Department of Social Studies Director, KP Drama & GAPS King Philip Regional High School 201 Franklin Street Wrentham, MA 02093 Web page: http://fac.kingphilip.org/~ferreiraj/ E-mail: ferreiraj [at] kingphilip.org ------------------------------ From: Bsapsis [at] aol.com Message-ID: <1f1.25099dc8.2e245a49 [at] aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:19:05 EDT Subject: Re: winch question In a message dated 7/12/04 4:32:14 PM, jdurand [at] interstellar.com writes: << You wind up with a tall, skinny drum. >> What you are describing, if I have the image correct in my head, is called a pile up drum. You take and wrap the wire rope over itself..."piling' up on itself. These are a good way to save horizontal space. The danger comes in loading too much weight on the wire rope. Because it's piling up on itself, you run the risk of crushing the wire rope in the wrap under the one you are adding. (does that makes sense) So, it can and has been done. You just have to watch your load ratings a bit. Bill S. Sapsis Rigging, Inc. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile We stand behind, and under, our work. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.0.20040712162201.028cac78 [at] mail.insightbb.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:34:05 -0500 From: Mike Brubaker Subject: Re: winch question In-Reply-To: References: How about, instead of reducing the length, the goal is to maintain the length but reduce the width (reducing the drum diameter). Please excuse the art. Take two, smaller drums above one another: O O Connect them with a belt or chain: O | | | | O Connect the end of the lift line to the belt or chain. This end now travels around the full assembly, rather than one drum. | | <--lift line | O <--drum | | <--line/belt | | O <--drum The end result might look something like this in the other view: | | =||||||= |||||| |||||| =||||||= This would give you the effect of a much larger drum (for the purposes of number of wraps, physical width of drums, etc.). Mike At 04:19 PM 7/12/2004, Bsapsis [at] aol.com wrote: ><< You wind up with a tall, skinny drum. >> > >What you are describing, if I have the image correct in my head, is called a >pile up drum. You take and wrap the wire rope over itself..."piling' up on >itself. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20040712144943.02691248 [at] localhost> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:51:14 -0700 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: winch question In-Reply-To: References: At 02:19 PM 7/12/2004, you wrote: >In a message dated 7/12/04 4:32:14 PM, jdurand [at] interstellar.com writes: > ><< You wind up with a tall, skinny drum. >> > >What you are describing, if I have the image correct in my head, is called a >pile up drum. You take and wrap the wire rope over itself..."piling' up on >itself. I was thinking of a single layer, the belt would be wide so it would take up horizontal depth, but very little width. ---------- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886 fax: +1 408 356-4659 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.0.20040712145224.02701730 [at] localhost> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:52:38 -0700 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: [spamcatcher] Re: winch question In-Reply-To: References: At 02:34 PM 7/12/2004, you wrote: >For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see >How about, instead of reducing the length, the goal is to maintain the >length but reduce the width (reducing the drum diameter). Please excuse >the art. Take two, smaller drums above one another: That's what I had in mind. ---------- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886 fax: +1 408 356-4659 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ From: "Douglas McCracken" Subject: Re: plays as scenes in movies Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:18:53 -1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: I'm not an opera person, so this is my question. What is the opera the cowboy attends? Aloha, Douglas ------------------------------ From: "Jason" References: Subject: Re: Hoffend Vortek system Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:21:22 -0700 Message-ID: I heard that the Royal Opera House in London about a month ago had their automated rigging failed and had 2000 pounds parts of scenic rip their alum trust battens apart spearing the deck and lifting it and one just about spearing a cello player within inches. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Brubaker" > The big difference between the Vortek (and, presumably, similar systems) > and traditional powered rigging (hydraulic, winch, etc) is load > sensing. As a part of the hanging process, you, the operator, "teach" the > control system what the load hanging from the batten looks like as the > batten moves through its travel. If, then, the load varies in either > direction (lighter/heavier) from this learned profile by some amount (set > by you as the operator)--say, 2 pounds, the set stops. > > The situation you describe should be avoidable with the Vortek, as there > would be a significant change in the loading from that the control system > was taught. > > I believe that rigging systems like this (load sensing, preset controls, > etc) have been in use in some of the larger halls in Europe and in Las > Vegas for years--the big difference being that these were fully custom > installations. Hoffend is selling this as almost an "off-the-shelf" product. ------------------------------ From: "Jason" References: Subject: Re: winch question Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:30:07 -0700 Message-ID: Most commonly used in people flying EFX and a few other non hard usage rigging. ----- Original Message ----- From: << You wind up with a tall, skinny drum. >> > > What you are describing, if I have the image correct in my head, is called a > pile up drum. You take and wrap the wire rope over itself..."piling' up on > itself. > > These are a good way to save horizontal space. The danger comes in loading > too much weight on the wire rope. Because it's piling up on itself, you run > the risk of crushing the wire rope in the wrap under the one you are adding. > (does that makes sense) > > So, it can and has been done. You just have to watch your load ratings a bit. > > Bill S. > ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #69 ****************************