Return-Path: X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 24467129; Sun, 28 Aug 2005 03:07:45 -0700 X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #502 Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 03:00:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.7 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on prxy.net X-Spam-Level: X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4f2 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #502 1. plagiarism and thanks Herrick by Judy 2. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by Erwin Rol 3. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 4. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by Erwin Rol 5. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 6. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 7. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 8. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by Noah Price 9. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by Erwin Rol 10. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by Erwin Rol 11. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 12. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 13. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by Erwin Rol 14. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by Erwin Rol 15. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "Tony Deeming" 16. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "Tony Deeming" 17. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by Mark O'Brien 18. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by John McKernon 19. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by John McKernon 20. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 21. Apple-Xerox by Mike Brubaker 22. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "Tony Deeming" 23. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 24. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "Tony Deeming" 25. PLASA by Bill Sapsis 26. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 27. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by Scott Parker 28. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 29. Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 30. Re: Chorus Line the new version another discussion thread by "C. Dopher" 31. Re: PLASA by Charlie Richmond 32. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by John McKernon 33. Re: Chorus Line the new version another discussion thread by "C. Dopher" 34. Re: Painted Chrismas Scrim for Christmas Carol Farce by "C. Dopher" 35. Re: Chorus Line the new version another discussion thread by Herrick Goldman 36. Re: PLASA by "Tony Deeming" 37. Re: PLASA by Bill Sapsis 38. supporting other machines by Jerry Durand 39. Re: supporting other machines by Bill Sapsis 40. Re: supporting other machines by "Jon Ares" 41. Re: supporting other machines by "Occy" 42. Re: supporting other machines by Bill Sapsis 43. Re: supporting other machines by Jerry Durand 44. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by Paul Puppo 45. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 46. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by Bill Sapsis 47. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by "Tony Deeming" 48. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by "Jon Ares" 49. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by "Tony Deeming" 50. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by "Occy" 51. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by Wood Chip-P26398 52. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by Noah Price 53. Asteroids (was: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple) by Mike Brubaker 54. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by Charlie Richmond 55. Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple by Charlie Richmond 56. Re: Asteroids (was: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple) by Scott Parker *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-ID: <431051FC.8000209 [at] post.tau.ac.il> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:43:56 +0200 From: Judy Subject: plagiarism and thanks Herrick > > > Still, >plagiary is not flattery when its coming from laziness and lack of skillz. > The most annoying plagiarism I suffered was in ballet: I did a very nice Giselle, where I did stuff like alternating different blues in the sidelights for the forest act so it really looked as if they were dancing through trees. Later I found the company liked it so much that they used the same lighting for their performance of Sylphides! Not only was that stealing, but it didn't even look good, because the uneven color spoiled the symmetry! BTW I'd like to second Greg Carville who wrote: >I find this whole conversation revolving around ACl very interesting. >Thank you Herrick for giving us a little intellectual spark. (not that >other conversations aren't, but this one has hit a chord on a number >of levels) > ------------------------------ Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick From: Erwin Rol In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:43:45 +0200 Message-Id: <1125143026.7380.291.camel [at] xpc.home.erwinrol.com> I find this discussion about copyright on lighting designs very interesting, especially now we live in a time that everybody believes they have the right to be the owner of every idea they come up with. I wonder though how much of a lighting design would actually be copyrightable. When I compare it to the software industry it is pretty much the same as a GUI, and for example apple failed to protected their "look and feel" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_v._Microsoft . Also how much do you have to reuse before it is copyright infringement, cause when you compare it to books, I am sure every single word in this mail is in several books that are copyrighted, but that doesn't mean this I have to ask all authors in the world for permission to write this mail. Just like every lighting design certainly fades some lights, and changes some colors. When you run the same show , and just take a backup disk from someone and use that, than that certainly sounds like copyright infringement, but if you saw someone do a nice effect, and rewrite that for your own show, is that copyright infringement? When it comes to computer GUI's it is certainly not, and i doubt it will be in lighting design. And one thing I really noticed is that people start to use the word "stealing" when they talk about copyright infringement. This really is a shame, cause it shows that the massive attacks by the music/movie industry seem to have effect, cause copyright infringement is _not_ stealing! When you steal something you take away something from somebody, and that somebody will not have it anymore after that, for example when you steal his car. The term "pirates" is even worse, cause that assumes stealing and using violence to do so. Also notice that these terms are only used in marketing and press releases, cause in court it would be accusing someone for something they didn't do, which AFAIK is illegal. - Erwin On Sat, 2005-08-27 at 13:43 +0200, Judy wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > Still, > >plagiary is not flattery when its coming from laziness and lack of skillz. > > > The most annoying plagiarism I suffered was in ballet: I did a very nice > Giselle, where I did stuff like alternating different blues in the > sidelights for the forest act so it really looked as if they were > dancing through trees. Later I found the company liked it so much that > they used the same lighting for their performance of Sylphides! Not only > was that stealing, but it didn't even look good, because the uneven > color spoiled the symmetry! > > BTW I'd like to second Greg Carville who wrote: > > >I find this whole conversation revolving around ACl very interesting. > >Thank you Herrick for giving us a little intellectual spark. (not that > >other conversations aren't, but this one has hit a chord on a number > >of levels) > > ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:54:03 -0400 Message-ID: <000701c5aafe$087704c0$6601a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > for example apple=20 > failed to protected their "look and feel"=20 ...Which Apple got from Xerox. > effect, cause copyright infringement is _not_ stealing! The theft is not that of the words or the light cues or the music; it's = that of the money that the author was due for use of his/her intellectual product. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick From: Erwin Rol In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:21:09 +0200 Message-Id: <1125145270.7380.310.camel [at] xpc.home.erwinrol.com> On Sat, 2005-08-27 at 07:54 -0400, Jeffrey E. Salzberg wrote: > The theft is not that of the words or the light cues or the music; it's that > of the money that the author was due for use of his/her intellectual > product. > And that is a wrong conclusion, that is also due to marketing from the big music/movie/software industry. When I illegally copy a piece of music, it doesn't mean I would have bought it when it would have cost me money. Saying every illegally copied work is a lost sale is not possible. Hence you can not talk about theft in that case. A good example how wrong this is is the fact that the software industry measures the amount of money "stolen" from them, by taking an "average" PC and the amount of software on it, than they look at the sales of PC's and the sales of software, than the difference with their average PC is the amount of "stolen" software. Of course this "average" PC is something they think up, cause the more it seems there is "stolen" the easier it is to buy new laws like the DMCA. Also that way of thinking makes me a criminal cause I run Linux and don't have any commercial software on this PC. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that it should be allowed to copy someones work without their permission, I am just objecting that people say it is stealing, cause stealing is not the correct term and makes it sound worse than it is. Cause if I steal your lighting design it means you will have to do all the work again (cause I for example stole your console and backup disks), when I (illegally) copy your lighting design you still have your design. - Erwin ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:23:57 -0400 Message-ID: <001a01c5ab02$35cf27a0$6601a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > > The theft is not that of the words or the light cues or the music; > > it's that of the money that the author was due for use of his/her > > intellectual product. > > > > And that is a wrong conclusion, that is also due to marketing > from the big music/movie/software industry. ...Then I must be remarkably prescient, since that's been my position for about 30 years -- long before there was any such marketing campaign. ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:43:00 GMT Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Message-Id: <20050827.054349.26877.166915 [at] webmail01.lax.untd.com> I disagree. It IS just as bad, or worse, than it sounds. There are normally consequences when you get caught copying an adjacent test taker's answers while taking a test, even though they still have their own answers to turn in. It is important to protect the integrity of the Design delivery system by maintaining the historical incentives and taboos that form the basis of modern Intellectual Property law, including 'moral rights'. /s/ Richard Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that it should be allowed to copy someones work without their permission, I am just objecting that people say it is stealing, cause stealing is not the correct term and makes it sound worse than it is. Cause if I steal your lighting design it means you will have to do all the work again (cause I for example stole your console and backup disks), when I (illegally) copy your lighting design you still have your design. - Erwin ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 08:51:40 -0400 Message-ID: <002201c5ab06$150b4220$6601a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: =20 > I am just=20 > objecting that people say it is stealing, cause stealing is=20 > not the correct term and makes it sound worse than it is.=20 > Cause if I steal your lighting design it means you will have=20 > to do all the work again (cause I for example stole your=20 > console and backup disks), when I (illegally) copy your=20 > lighting design you still have your design. If you steal my car, you have my car and I don't. If you use my lighting design, you have the money I would have made from = the additional commission, and I don't. What might even be worse, you get the credit amongst people who see the work, and I don't. I'd rather you stole my car; it, at least, is = insured. ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: From: Noah Price Subject: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 06:03:45 -0700 On Aug 23, 2005, at 3:01 PM, Michael S. Eddy wrote: > My question to the group at large is -- what are theatre companies > running > these days Microsoft, Apple, or Linux? I put together a web site to gather Apple/Mac software used in theatre: I'm always looking for additions, especially more recent theatre- specific software. I'm happy to add a Linux section if there's some specialty software becoming available. One example I started looking at a while ago and have running on MacOS X will also run under Linux: Thanks, Noah ------------------------------ Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick From: Erwin Rol In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:18:44 +0200 Message-Id: <1125148724.7380.338.camel [at] xpc.home.erwinrol.com> wow it really seems i opened Pandora's box :-) On Sat, 2005-08-27 at 12:43 +0000, ladesigners [at] juno.com wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > I disagree. It IS just as bad, or worse, than it sounds. There are > normally consequences when you get caught copying an adjacent test > taker's answers while taking a test, even though they still have their > own answers to turn in. Of course there are consequences, you faked a test that you agreed not to fake. This has very little to do with copyright, cause i don't think anybody ever got sued under copyright law for faking a test. The consequences are that when a lot of people fake a test, the fact that you passed the test will not mean anything anymore. But this doesn't have anything to do with "stealing" or "theft". > It is important to protect the integrity of the Design delivery system > by maintaining the historical incentives and taboos that form the > basis of modern Intellectual Property law, including 'moral rights'. By 100% protecting the "design delivery system" you will also have to forbid schools, cause schools teach you by example, hence you copy what someone else "designed". I think this extreme IP protection that is going on these days is a very dangerous path, certainly some protection is wanted, but it is very easy to over do it. And by using terms like "theft" and "stealing" this over doing is only made easier. - Erwin ------------------------------ Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick From: Erwin Rol In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:23:05 +0200 Message-Id: <1125148986.7380.342.camel [at] xpc.home.erwinrol.com> On Sat, 2005-08-27 at 08:51 -0400, Jeffrey E. Salzberg wrote: > If you use my lighting design, you have the money I would have made from the > additional commission, and I don't. > Wrong, if I use your lighting design I make money without really working for it. If I didn't used your lighting design I made money by working for it. In both cases you wouldn't have made any money, hence nothing was "stolen" from you. > What might even be worse, you get the credit amongst people who see the > work, and I don't. I'd rather you stole my car; it, at least, is insured. Hmmm I don't have a drivers license, but if it is a good car i might be able to sell it ;-) - Erwin ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:24:14 -0400 Message-ID: <002401c5ab0a$a1942370$6601a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > I think this extreme IP protection that is going on these=20 > days is a very dangerous path, certainly some protection is=20 > wanted, but it is very easy to over do it. And by using terms=20 > like "theft" and "stealing" this over doing is only made easier. Erwin, you're perfectly free to release your work product to the public domain. The fact that copyright law protects us from having our work = stolen (sorry, Erwin; if you take someone's property without permission, it = *is* stealing) doesn't mean we can't give it away. ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:26:47 -0400 Message-ID: <002501c5ab0a$fcbca010$6601a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > > If you use my lighting design, you have the money I would have made > > from the additional commission, and I don't. > > > > Wrong, if I use your lighting design I make money without > really working for it. If I didn't used your lighting design > I made money by working for it. In both cases you wouldn't > have made any money, hence nothing was "stolen" from you. Ah, but you don't know that they wouldn't have hired me. In any event, taking something without permission is theft; it doesn't matter if anyone suffers a loss. > > > What might even be worse, you get the credit amongst people who see > > the work, and I don't. I'd rather you stole my car; it, at > least, is > > insured. > > Hmmm I don't have a drivers license, but if it is a good car > i might be able to sell it ;-) It's brand new, actually. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple From: Erwin Rol In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:28:11 +0200 Message-Id: <1125149291.7380.346.camel [at] xpc.home.erwinrol.com> Hey Noah, that's a very nice collection, what really would be nice if you would have something where you can set filters like, "show me all mac software", or "show me all windows software". Of course that means there has to be non mac software on the site :-) A bit like www.freshmeat.net does for example. - Erwin On Sat, 2005-08-27 at 06:03 -0700, Noah Price wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > > On Aug 23, 2005, at 3:01 PM, Michael S. Eddy wrote: > > > My question to the group at large is -- what are theatre companies > > running > > these days Microsoft, Apple, or Linux? > > I put together a web site to gather Apple/Mac software used in theatre: > > > I'm always looking for additions, especially more recent theatre- > specific software. > > I'm happy to add a Linux section if there's some specialty software > becoming available. > > One example I started looking at a while ago and have running on > MacOS X will also run under Linux: > > > Thanks, > > Noah ------------------------------ Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick From: Erwin Rol Cc: stagecraft [at] jeffsalzberg.com In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:38:16 +0200 Message-Id: <1125149897.7380.356.camel [at] xpc.home.erwinrol.com> On Sat, 2005-08-27 at 09:24 -0400, Jeffrey E. Salzberg wrote: > Erwin, you're perfectly free to release your work product to the public > domain. The fact that copyright law protects us from having our work stolen > (sorry, Erwin; if you take someone's property without permission, it *is* > stealing) doesn't mean we can't give it away. I think we have to agree to differ here, but only on the use of the terms "stealing", cause I am certainly pro-copyright (I am very anti-patents though, but that's another can of worms :-) - Erwin ------------------------------ From: "Tony Deeming" Cc: stagecraft [at] jeffsalzberg.com Subject: RE: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:48:07 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > -----Original Message----- > From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net]On Behalf Of Jeffrey > E. Salzberg > Sent: 27 August 2005 13:52 > To: Stagecraft > Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick > > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > > I am just > > objecting that people say it is stealing, cause stealing is > > not the correct term and makes it sound worse than it is. > > Cause if I steal your lighting design it means you will have > > to do all the work again (cause I for example stole your > > console and backup disks), when I (illegally) copy your > > lighting design you still have your design. > > If you steal my car, you have my car and I don't. > > If you use my lighting design, you have the money I would have > made from the > additional commission, and I don't. > > What might even be worse, you get the credit amongst people who see the > work, and I don't. I'd rather you stole my car; it, at least, is insured. > Hmm... I'd say that there are going to be very few occasions where anyone has actually copied the whole of a show's lighting (ie lantern position, colour, focus, combination of instruments etc) because, well, to be frank it would be ruddy nigh on impossible, especially between different venues. The most likely situation wrt lighting is that someone may see an effect in a show and thinks 'hey - that's cool - I might use that in one of my shows one day'..... I know I have on a number of occasions. The example of the 2-colour blue sidelights is an example thereof, which I gather WAS at the same venue which may of course raise other issues - eg if the company paid the LD for that design was the same one who paid another LD for the second show, does the company itself not have some sort of right to request the use of the same/similar effect....? That's one for the lawyers...!! TD ------------------------------ From: "Tony Deeming" Cc: stagecraft [at] jeffsalzberg.com Subject: RE: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:51:55 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > -----Original Message----- > From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net]On Behalf Of Jeffrey > E. Salzberg > Sent: 27 August 2005 14:24 > To: Stagecraft > Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick > > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > I think this extreme IP protection that is going on these > > days is a very dangerous path, certainly some protection is > > wanted, but it is very easy to over do it. And by using terms > > like "theft" and "stealing" this over doing is only made easier. > > Erwin, you're perfectly free to release your work product to the public > domain. The fact that copyright law protects us from having our > work stolen > (sorry, Erwin; if you take someone's property without permission, it *is* > stealing) doesn't mean we can't give it away. > Devil's advocate here, but here's a question....... a) how could you PROVE that someone has 'stolen' your designs? b) is it actually possible to copyright something like a lighting design? Surely you would have to submit schematics, dimmer plots, cue sheets and the rest to a higher authority for it to stand up in any court...? c) I'd say the only things that get copied would be ideas, and let's be honest, how many of us have never seen an idea that we liked and not considered copying it for their own benefit? TD ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20050827071452.wgsmsgkwscg8w48k [at] www.email.arizona.edu> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 07:14:52 -0700 From: Mark O'Brien Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick References:

In-Reply-To: Quoting Erwin Rol : > Wrong, if I use your lighting design I make money without really working > for it. If I didn't used your lighting design I made money by working > for it. In both cases you wouldn't have made any money, hence nothing > was "stolen" from you. > - Erwin Huh? If you used my lighting design on another show/client, you take from me the ability to make money from that client. = stealing You are pawning MY ideas off as your own, and TAKING the credit, etc. = stealing + bad joo joo. Of course you would be a fool for STEALING my lighting design, as I am NOT a lighting designer. So therefore, you would look like an ass, and be a THIEF. Mark-O Mark O'Brien Opera Technical Director University of Arizona, School of Music 520-621-7025 520-591-1803 Mobile ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:14:31 -0400 Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick From: John McKernon Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > I am just objecting that people say it is stealing, cause stealing is not the > correct term According to the Webster's Dictionary in front of me, the first defintion of stealing is: "To take or appropriate (another's property, ideas, etc.) without permission, dishonestly, or unlawfully" Notice the word "appropriate" - which means "to take for one's own use" So using something that belongs to someone else without their permission can indeed be called "stealing". - John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 10:18:22 -0400 Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick From: John McKernon Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > a) how could you PROVE that someone has 'stolen' your designs? Yes, but you need to document both your design and the stolen design thoroughly. > b) is it actually possible to copyright something like a lighting design? > Surely you would have to submit schematics, dimmer plots, cue sheets and the > rest to a higher authority for it to stand up in any court...? The best is a videotape of the entire performance, or at least the parts where you want to protect the lighting. What's copyrighted is the visual part, not necessarily the nuts and bolts that accomplish it - at least I belive that's what copyright lawyers have said. > c) I'd say the only things that get copied would be ideas, and let's be > honest, how many of us have never seen an idea that we liked and not > considered copying it for their own benefit? That's what patents are for - - John ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:42:40 GMT Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Message-Id: <20050827.074328.26877.167752 [at] webmail01.lax.untd.com> Dear TD, No Lawyer is required in most cases; a comprehensive contract, properly executed, is sufficient in almost all cases to define the rights of the parties. It must cover reuse Rights and Royalties, as well as the schedule of payments, and please remember that "Credits are Contractual"! The USA 829 Contract is a good starting point, even on nonunion jobs, but do not be afraid to customize your contract to the particular circumstances that make every job unique. Yes, in theory, copyright protection exists from the moment of creation, but routine early registration of all your work with the Copyright Office is a cheap way of proving your intention was NOT to transfer any rights not specifically enumerated in the contract to your employer, that you are only granting a extremely limited-time and limited-location license, and that your work is not a 'Work Made For Hire' for legal purposes, even if it is for practical purposes. Also, you have to make it clear, in the contract, that you own all the derivative rights to your work "in all media now existing or to be developed in the future". Having a copy of my design, instrument schedule, and cue sheets reprinted in a $100 college textbook without my permission and name credit would not my idea of either a good time or 'fair use' under the Copyright Act. You should consider that, too. /s/ Richard The example of the 2-colour blue sidelights is an example thereof, which I gather WAS at the same venue which may of course raise other issues - eg if the company paid the LD for that design was the same one who paid another LD for the second show, does the company itself not have some sort of right to request the use of the same/similar effect....? That's one for the lawyers...!! TD ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20050827094852.01ce3278 [at] mail.insightbb.com> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:50:25 -0500 From: Mike Brubaker Subject: Apple-Xerox In-Reply-To: References:

At 06:54 AM 8/27/2005, Jeffrey E. Salzberg wrote: > > for example apple > > failed to protected their "look and feel" > >...Which Apple got from Xerox. Only the very beginnings. The big "borrow" was the mouse, which came almost wholesale from Xerox/PARC. A distant cousin was involved in both. Mike ------------------------------ From: "Tony Deeming" Subject: RE: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:14:21 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > -----Original Message----- > From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net]On Behalf Of John > McKernon > Sent: 27 August 2005 15:18 > To: Stagecraft > Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick > > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > > a) how could you PROVE that someone has 'stolen' your designs? > > Yes, but you need to document both your design and the stolen design > thoroughly. Erm, yes, that's a given, but surely to qualify for any copyright you have then to register those documents somewhere official, yes? Otherwise, what legal standing do you have? > > > b) is it actually possible to copyright something like a > lighting design? > > Surely you would have to submit schematics, dimmer plots, cue > sheets and the > > rest to a higher authority for it to stand up in any court...? > > The best is a videotape of the entire performance, or at least the parts > where you want to protect the lighting. What's copyrighted is the visual > part, not necessarily the nuts and bolts that accomplish it - at least I > believe that's what copyright lawyers have said. I still would maintain that unless the idea being stolen is so stylised it would be hellishly difficult to prove one tape shows the 'stolen' ideas. (Not to mention the can of worms opened when we get back to videotaped performances.....) > > > c) I'd say the only things that get copied would be ideas, and let's be > > honest, how many of us have never seen an idea that we liked and not > > considered copying it for their own benefit? > > That's what patents are for - > No, I don't think so. How can you possibly patent a lighting design? Luminaires, whether fixed or automated, have limits to what can be done with each one. Colour, shape, size, position, focus, everything else - these are all tools available to ANYONE who buys/rents the fixtures. So, sooner or later, by design or default, all of us will use fixtures in a similar way to someone else out there - the infinite monkey principle applies there. And to it's broadest degree, can anyone claim that they have copyright or patent on a steel blue wash? Or a primary red sidelight with amber keylight and lavender front spots? Or on the transition between these two states? I seriously doubt it! I would say that the fuss over copyright of lighting design (in general) is at best a lost cause, at worst a cracking money maker for lawyers! How many of us can say we've actually been victim of a real bona-fide LD 'theft' that has actually taken money from our pockets, and that would stand up in court? TD ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:17:42 -0400 Message-ID: <002a01c5ab1a$7b932f30$6601a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > I would say that the fuss over copyright of lighting design > (in general) is at best a lost cause, at worst a cracking > money maker for lawyers! That's true; it's really more of a matter of ethics, as far as I'm concerned. ------------------------------ From: "Tony Deeming" Subject: RE: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:20:18 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Richard, hi Please bear in mind that as an outsider (ie experienced amateur on the right side of the pond) I'm playing a little devil's advocate here. Your arguments are very cohesive and logical BUT it assumes that every LD has the ability and opportunity to negotiate contracts in this manner, which I suspect many but the higher echelons may not. It also supposes that they are aware of and able to submit to the copyright office, and again, as a committed realist I suspect they don't. I don't know, but I would further expect the copyright office to charge for the services..... I'd repeat my question from another post - how many people here would do this - ie FULLY document ALL of the light plots and submit them to copyright? The example as quoted - blue side lights - was a valid one for both sides of the argument. TD -------------------------------------------------- > > Dear TD, > No Lawyer is required in most cases; a comprehensive > contract, properly executed, is sufficient in almost all cases to > define the rights of the parties. It must cover reuse Rights and > Royalties, as well as the schedule of payments, and please > remember that "Credits are Contractual"! The USA 829 Contract is > a good starting point, even on nonunion jobs, but do not be > afraid to customize your contract to the particular circumstances > that make every job unique. Yes, in theory, copyright protection > exists from the moment of creation, but routine early > registration of all your work with the Copyright Office is a > cheap way of proving your intention was NOT to transfer any > rights not specifically enumerated in the contract to your > employer, that you are only granting a extremely limited-time and > limited-location license, and that your work is not a 'Work Made > For Hire' for legal purposes, even if it is for practical > purposes. Also, you have to make it clear, in the contract, that > you own all the derivative rights to your work "in all media now > existing or to be developed in the future". Having a copy of my > design, instrument schedule, and cue sheets reprinted in a $100 > college textbook without my permission and name credit would not > my idea of either a good time or 'fair use' under the Copyright > Act. You should consider that, too. > /s/ Richard > > The example of the 2-colour blue sidelights is an example > thereof, which I gather WAS at the same venue which may of course > raise other issues - eg if the company paid the LD for that > design was the same one who paid another LD for the second show, > does the company itself not have some sort of right to request > the use of the same/similar effect....? That's one for the lawyers...!! > TD > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:38:10 -0400 Subject: PLASA From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Hate to break in on the lighting plot litigation, but I was wondering if anyone is going over to London for PLASA next month. I am and have a pretty full schedule, but I can always find time to have a pint. What about our UK members? My mobile does not work over there (I need to get some peace sometime, ya know), but I can usually be reached through someone at the ESTA Booth at the trade show. Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:57:00 GMT Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Message-Id: <20050827.085743.26877.168408 [at] webmail01.lax.untd.com> Dear Erwin, I respectfully disagree with you. There is a time and place for 'Fair Use' under the Copyright Act, but that is NOT what we are talking about. I will defend myself, and the designers that I represent, from non-consensual reuse of their and my designs by for-profit or non-profit users or entities of every type. Intellectual Property rights deserve the same protection as Real Property rights; they are subject to Eminent Domain actions by government just as other property rights are. It is no accident that 'Rents' and 'Royalties' are bundled together for tax, and other, purposes, as they both represent a financial 'return' on property creation time or financial investment. /s/ Richard By 100% protecting the "design delivery system" you will also have to forbid schools, cause schools teach you by example, hence you copy what someone else "designed". I think this extreme IP protection that is going on these days is a very dangerous path, certainly some protection is wanted, but it is very easy to over do it. And by using terms like "theft" and "stealing" this overdoing is only made easier. - Erwin ------------------------------ Message-ID: <90d9c99805082709115dad4a34 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:11:23 -0400 From: Scott Parker Subject: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple In-Reply-To: References:

Don't forget about VectorWorks and LightWrite... Both work on Mac & Windows. In fact, John does his LightWrite programing on a mac and then deals with windows. <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>> --=20 Take care, Scott =09Scott C. Parker =09Professor/Technical Director =09Dept. of Performing Arts =09Dyson College of Arts and Sciences [at] Pace University =09Office/shipping: 41 Park Row, 1205F =09Mailing: 1 Pace Plaza=20 =09New York, NY 10038 =09212-346-1423 Fax: 914-989-8425 ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:12:16 GMT Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Message-Id: <20050827.091315.26877.168540 [at] webmail01.lax.untd.com> Dear TD, Yea...$20 for your lifetime, the last time I checked... /s/ Richard _________________________________ Reply to: Richard, hi Your arguments are very cohesive and logical BUT I don't know, but I would further expect the copyright office to charge for the services..... TD ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:15:30 GMT Cc: ladesigners [at] juno.com Subject: Re: plagiarism and thanks Herrick Message-Id: <20050827.091623.26877.168569 [at] webmail01.lax.untd.com> Dear TD, Yea...$20 for your lifetime +95 years, the last time I checked... /s/ Richard _________________________________ Reply to: Richard, hi Your arguments are very cohesive and logical BUT I don't know, but I would further expect the copyright office to charge for the services..... TD ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:39:53 -0400 Subject: Re: Chorus Line the new version another discussion thread From: "C. Dopher" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <90d9c9980508260823742d6df7 [at] mail.gmail.com> On 8/26/05 11:23 AM, "Scott Parker" wrote: > Yes, Cris. Indeed, I used scrollers and moving lights. The moving > lights were used as refocusable specials and the scrollers were used > to make that slight shift in color. > Oh, lest I forget, the moving lights were also used as a teaching > tools for the dozen, or students, learning about moving lights, while > being given a show without glitz. Same for the scrollers. > The visual presentation to the audience was much simpler then the > technology used. > > In fact, now that I think about it, I did have a moving light > sequence. A series of back light shots on each actor during the scene > when the directors explains what the process will be. The only reason > I had the rear mounted moving light go from actor to actor was to help > a, very young, frontlight operator hit the correct actor at the > correct time. > > Just because I had all this technology didn't mean that I wanted the > audience to wowed by it. I would have liked to have seen your show. I bet it was great; I always enjoy the shows where I see a lot technology in the air...but it's so slickly used in the show that I'm not aware of it. I hope your students appreciate the advanced example you set them. Cris Dopher ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:39:05 +0100 (BST) From: Charlie Richmond Subject: Re: PLASA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, Bill Sapsis wrote: > Hate to break in on the lighting plot litigation, but I was wondering if > anyone is going over to London for PLASA next month. I am and have a pretty I am now based in London most of the time and invite anyone who wants to get in touch with me. I won't be arriving back from Canada till the 11th, jet lagged, and don't plan to spend a lot of time at PLASA but will be pleased to get together any time after that to lift a couple... ;-) My number is +44-(0)7795-436581 See you then! Charlie -- + Charlie Richmond - Richmond Sound Design - Skype: charlierichmond + + http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com "Performance for the Long Run" + + Show Control List: http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com/sclist.html + + AudioBox List: http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com/ablist.html + "Let distribution undo excess - And each man have enough" - King Lear ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:40:50 -0400 Subject: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple From: John McKernon Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > Don't forget about VectorWorks and LightWrite... Both work on Mac & > Windows. In fact, John does his LightWrite programing on a mac and > then deals with windows. Although the percentage of Macs in the corporate world is quite small, 40% of Lightwright registrations are Macintosh - so I'd be more than foolish to ignore that large a market share, whatever the pros and cons of the OS's. When and if Linux makes significant penetration in the theatrical market, you can be sure LW will support it, too. - John ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:47:47 -0400 Subject: Re: Chorus Line the new version another discussion thread From: "C. Dopher" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: On 8/26/05 7:40 PM, "Herrick Goldman" wrote: > I appreciate all the Chorus line feedback and if I keep getting this quality > of information I may indeed collate it into some sort of article or Blog. > Especially with the approach of ACL2006. An update on that: My emails with the original (3rd) assistant reveal that while Tharon and Richard Winkler were originally slated to do ACL'06, things have changed. Tharon is too ill to do the show; Katz will be lighting it. Neither are any of the original assistants involved, probably due to politics, though if I were Natasha, I wouldn't want the original assistants assisting ME in my "recreation" of ACL's lighting. While the word "recreation" is still in play, I doubt very much in will be, at least as lighting goes -- I've not seen anything by Natasha that didn't use ultra-violet, it seems to be her signature color. I would be deeply impressed if she could shift her own design sensibilities enough to actually replicate the show's original look. Cris Dopher ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:51:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Painted Chrismas Scrim for Christmas Carol Farce From: "C. Dopher" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <430f9249.25c.fd4.7688 [at] fredonia.edu> On 8/26/05 6:06 PM, "hick7957" wrote: > Hey everyone, > Before I go into my request, I'd like to thank the > administrators (I assume they read these) for providing this > forum to help communication amongst the theatre community. > I'm sure that it will be a big help for me as I start to > move into this business. > And now, the interesting stuff. I am the technical > director for the SUNY Fredonia production of "The Farndale > Avenue Housing Estate Townswomen's Guild Dramatic Society's > Production of 'A Christmas Carol.'" Basically, it's just a > farce of 'A Christmas Carol.' The script calls for a scrim > to be painted with a christmas card image to hang at the > back of the stage. Before I go out to buy scrim for the > scene painter to paint, I wanted to see if there was a > possibility for me to rent one of this description. It would > need to be at least 18 feet wide by 12 feet high. The > designer is looking for an image of a snow covered london > street, or a snow cover town, or something along those > lines. If anyone has any information about where I could > find such a item, please let me know. We need more info. Why a scrim and not a muslin drop? Why the Christmas Card setting? Is it supposed to BE a Christmas Card illustration, or is it supposed to evoke warm fuzzy nostalgia (for a reality that never existed)? If it's stock snow London rowhouse exteriors you want, try searching for Nutcracker front scrims. Cris Dopher ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:24:20 -0400 Subject: Re: Chorus Line the new version another discussion thread From: Herrick Goldman Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Actually I've had the pleasure of "watching" Natasha's work and palette change. I was an electrician for her at the American Repertory Theater in the late 80's early 90's when she lit "Servant of Two Masters". The play is hilarious and she lit it very cold (almost Tipton-like) and I felt it needed more color although it was arguably very well lit and well designed. Now decades later I really really love her pallette. Her design for "Sweet Smell of Success" was dark colorful and gorgeous. I'm sure she can shift her sensibilities whichever way the collaborative team decides is appropriate. On 8/27/05 12:47 PM, "C. Dopher" wrote: > > While the word "recreation" is still in play, I doubt very much in will be, > at least as lighting goes -- I've not seen anything by Natasha that didn't > use ultra-violet, it seems to be her signature color. I would be deeply > impressed if she could shift her own design sensibilities enough to actually > replicate the show's original look. > > Cris Dopher > > -- Herrick Goldman Lighting Designer, NYC www.HGLightingDesign.com 917-797-3624 "To the scores of silent alchemists who wreak their joy in darkness and in light bringing magic to life, we bow most humbly. "-CDS ------------------------------ From: "Tony Deeming" Subject: RE: PLASA Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:30:07 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: I'll be down with a couple of my cohorts - not sure which day tho.... When you gonna be there Bill? Tony > -----Original Message----- > From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net]On Behalf Of Bill > Sapsis > Sent: 27 August 2005 16:38 > To: Stagecraft > Subject: PLASA > > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Hate to break in on the lighting plot litigation, but I was wondering if > anyone is going over to London for PLASA next month. I am and > have a pretty > full schedule, but I can always find time to have a pint. What > about our UK > members? My mobile does not work over there (I need to get some peace > sometime, ya know), but I can usually be reached through someone > at the ESTA > Booth at the trade show. > > Bill S. > www.sapsis-rigging.com > 800.727.7471 > 800.292.3851 fax > 267.278.4561 mobile > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:35:42 -0400 Subject: Re: PLASA From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: I get in the night of the 10th and leave the morning of the 14th. Bill www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile On 8/27/05 1:30 PM, "Tony Deeming" wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > I'll be down with a couple of my cohorts - not sure which day tho.... When > you gonna be there Bill? > > Tony > ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20050827113313.03cc3520 [at] 192.168.0.13> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 11:44:40 -0700 Cc: Show-Control [at] yahoogroups.com From: Jerry Durand Subject: supporting other machines Since the USB chip we use in our DMX box is being phased out, and our search for a driver we could call our own hasn't panned out well over the years, I'm thinking of making a change on future boards where I just use a standard FTDI or TI (or other) chip and any processor I like for the back-end work (macros, fades, etc.). This would allow pretty much any Windows, Linux, or Mac system to instantly talk to our boxes, but would remove the higher-speed HID interface. The box would always appear as "just" a serial port. Aside from the high-speed binary interface using HID, all other commands would still be there as well as new ones (like analog in/out on the DILI boards). I'm now testing our first DILI board (an RS-232 to DALI bridge, think 4201 for DALI) and it doesn't have USB on it at all since it's intended for architectural use. The DILI boards have RS-232 and/or RS-485 for communications to the host as well as RS-485 (DMX) and/or DALI for the control side. For these boards I could provide a kit with an off-the-shelf USB to RS-232 adaptor with a cable to fit the DILI board connector. Comments? -- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:43:07 -0400 Subject: Re: supporting other machines From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: OK. I *think* he said all that in English, but I'm not certain. Is there an English to English translation available anywhere? <> Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile On 8/27/05 2:44 PM, "Jerry Durand" wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Since the USB chip we use in our DMX box is being phased out, and our > search for a driver we could call our own hasn't panned out well over > the years, I'm thinking of making a change on future boards where I > just use a standard FTDI or TI (or other) chip and any processor I > like for the back-end work (macros, fades, etc.). This would allow > pretty much any Windows, Linux, or Mac system to instantly talk to > our boxes, but would remove the higher-speed HID interface. The box > would always appear as "just" a serial port. Aside from the > high-speed binary interface using HID, all other commands would still > be there as well as new ones (like analog in/out on the DILI boards). > > I'm now testing our first DILI board (an RS-232 to DALI bridge, think > 4201 for DALI) and it doesn't have USB on it at all since it's > intended for architectural use. The DILI boards have RS-232 and/or > RS-485 for communications to the host as well as RS-485 (DMX) and/or > DALI for the control side. For these boards I could provide a kit > with an off-the-shelf USB to RS-232 adaptor with a cable to fit the > DILI board connector. > > Comments? ------------------------------ Message-ID: <000501c5ab40$1c429770$0600000a [at] BRUTUS> From: "Jon Ares" References: Subject: Re: supporting other machines Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:47:08 -0700 > OK. I *think* he said all that in English, but I'm not certain. Is there > an English to English translation available anywhere? >> I'm now testing our first DILI board (an RS-232 to DALI bridge, think >> 4201 for DALI) and it doesn't have USB on it at all since it's >> intended for architectural use. Don't worry about it, Bill... I think Jerry's just DILI-DALIing around.... - Jon Ares www.hevanet.com/acreative ------------------------------ Message-ID: From: "Occy" References: Subject: Re: supporting other machines Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 12:55:08 -0700 Bill, I am a rigger and I understood and understand what Jerry said... But I haven't programmed in a few years so I wouldn't try to make him a drive for his great devices. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sapsis" > OK. I *think* he said all that in English, but I'm not certain. Is there > an English to English translation available anywhere? > > <> > Bill S. > www.sapsis-rigging.com > 800.727.7471 > 800.292.3851 fax > 267.278.4561 mobile > > > > > > > On 8/27/05 2:44 PM, "Jerry Durand" wrote: > > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > Since the USB chip we use in our DMX box is being phased out, and our > > search for a driver we could call our own hasn't panned out well over > > the years, I'm thinking of making a change on future boards where I > > just use a standard FTDI or TI (or other) chip and any processor I > > like for the back-end work (macros, fades, etc.). This would allow > > pretty much any Windows, Linux, or Mac system to instantly talk to > > our boxes, but would remove the higher-speed HID interface. The box > > would always appear as "just" a serial port. Aside from the > > high-speed binary interface using HID, all other commands would still > > be there as well as new ones (like analog in/out on the DILI boards). > > > > I'm now testing our first DILI board (an RS-232 to DALI bridge, think > > 4201 for DALI) and it doesn't have USB on it at all since it's > > intended for architectural use. The DILI boards have RS-232 and/or > > RS-485 for communications to the host as well as RS-485 (DMX) and/or > > DALI for the control side. For these boards I could provide a kit > > with an off-the-shelf USB to RS-232 adaptor with a cable to fit the > > DILI board connector. > > > > Comments? > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:58:25 -0400 Subject: Re: supporting other machines From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: ROFL. Great. Now I have tea all over the desk, the laptop and the floor. Thanks a lot. ;-) On 8/27/05 3:47 PM, "Jon Ares" wrote: > Don't worry about it, Bill... I think Jerry's just DILI-DALIing around.... ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: supporting other machines Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 13:22:06 -0700 On Aug 27, 2005, at 12:43 PM, Bill Sapsis wrote: > OK. I *think* he said all that in English, but I'm not certain. =20 > Is there > an English to English translation available anywhere? > > <> > Bill S. Oh, you want English, =10TOO!? :) ------------------------------ Message-ID: <3998154b05082714198215b13 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 14:19:54 -0700 From: Paul Puppo Subject: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple In-Reply-To: References:

Uh, Noah, I know John McKernon is a very versital programer, but your links seem to credit him with most of the applications in your lighting section... Paul Puppo www.Nifty-Gadgets.com On 8/27/05, Noah Price wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 > On Aug 23, 2005, at 3:01 PM, Michael S. Eddy wrote: >=20 > > My question to the group at large is -- what are theatre companies > > running > > these days Microsoft, Apple, or Linux? >=20 > I put together a web site to gather Apple/Mac software used in theatre: > >=20 > I'm always looking for additions, especially more recent theatre- > specific software. >=20 > I'm happy to add a Linux section if there's some specialty software > becoming available. >=20 > One example I started looking at a while ago and have running on > MacOS X will also run under Linux: > >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Noah > ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:05:55 -0400 Message-ID: <003701c5ab5b$e41f0920$6601a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > > I'm happy to add a Linux section if there's some specialty software > > becoming available. I'm holding out for Apple ][+, Commodore 64, and Atari 800. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 19:55:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Asteroids. I wanna play asteroids. On 8/27/05 7:05 PM, "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" wrote: > I'm holding out for Apple ][+, Commodore 64, and Atari 800. ------------------------------ From: "Tony Deeming" Subject: RE: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:58:07 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: If you're sure, I reckon I may have a copy somewhere round here...... (for the PC, mind) > -----Original Message----- > From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net]On Behalf Of Bill > Sapsis > Sent: 28 August 2005 00:56 > To: Stagecraft > Subject: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple > > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Asteroids. I wanna play asteroids. > > > > On 8/27/05 7:05 PM, "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" > wrote: > > > I'm holding out for Apple ][+, Commodore 64, and Atari 800. > > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <000301c5ab66$95121010$0600000a [at] BRUTUS> From: "Jon Ares" Cc: stagecraft [at] jeffsalzberg.com References: Subject: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:22:32 -0700 > I'm holding out for Apple ][+, Commodore 64, and Atari 800. > Yes, would someone PLEASE write some light plot/CAD software and maybe some offline editing software for my VIC-20?? First one to do that I'll buy a cassette copy..... (I'd love to hook up some sort of show control with a VIC-20, just to see the expression on someone's face. "I should trust my life to THAT?!") - Jon Ares www.hevanet.com/acreative ------------------------------ From: "Tony Deeming" Subject: RE: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 01:24:39 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > -----Original Message----- > From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net]On Behalf Of Jon Ares > Sent: 28 August 2005 01:23 > To: Stagecraft > Cc: stagecraft [at] jeffsalzberg.com > Subject: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple > > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > > I'm holding out for Apple ][+, Commodore 64, and Atari 800. > > > > Yes, would someone PLEASE write some light plot/CAD software and > maybe some > offline editing software for my VIC-20?? First one to do that I'll buy a > cassette copy..... > > (I'd love to hook up some sort of show control with a VIC-20, just to see > the expression on someone's face. "I should trust my life to THAT?!") > > - Jon Ares Er, I still have my Sinclair ZX Spectrum in the attic ........ 8-)) TD ------------------------------ Message-ID: From: "Occy" References: Subject: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:42:03 -0700 I sold my asteroid machine to a buddy that screwed it it even had the carboard interlays on it ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sapsis" > > Asteroids. I wanna play asteroids. > > > > On 8/27/05 7:05 PM, "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" > wrote: > > > I'm holding out for Apple ][+, Commodore 64, and Atari 800. > > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <2E3198416D5E7A4FB3FEC7E6838FE36B020394 [at] ct11exm60.ds.mot.com> From: Wood Chip-P26398 Subject: RE: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 17:45:01 -0700 Don't forget the 6809 based Radio Shack 64K Color Computer. One smokin' machine! Chip -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Jon Ares > I'm holding out for Apple ][+, Commodore 64, and Atari 800. ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References:

Message-Id: <0F1F837B-A35F-4773-882A-4BFD2C7F1849 [at] theprices.net> From: Noah Price Subject: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 21:47:16 -0700 On Aug 27, 2005, at 2:19 PM, Paul Puppo wrote: > Uh, Noah, > > I know John McKernon is a very versital [sic] programer, but your > links seem to credit him with most of the applications in your > lighting section... Hmmm.... thought I fixed that cut'n'paste error months ago. Fixed now! I guess it tells you what package I put up first :-) Noah ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20050828004229.01cba400 [at] mail.insightbb.com> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:43:09 -0500 From: Mike Brubaker Subject: Asteroids (was: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple) In-Reply-To: References:

http://www.gamesgnome.com/arcade/asteroids/ At 06:55 PM 8/27/2005, Bill Sapsis wrote: >Asteroids. I wanna play asteroids. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 08:56:56 +0100 (BST) From: Charlie Richmond Cc: stagecraft [at] jeffsalzberg.com Subject: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, Jeffrey E. Salzberg wrote: > I'm holding out for Apple ][+, Commodore 64, and Atari 800. We have that. Plus Amiga (of course!) and BeOS..... Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:03:30 +0100 (BST) From: Charlie Richmond Subject: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References:

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005, Jon Ares wrote: > (I'd love to hook up some sort of show control with a VIC-20, just to see the > expression on someone's face. "I should trust my life to THAT?!") Our first control system was C-64 software and that was extremely reliable but not life safety quality.... Charlie ------------------------------ Message-ID: <90d9c99805082802411b40546 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 05:41:41 -0400 From: Scott Parker Subject: Re: Asteroids (was: Re: Linux vs Microsoft and Apple) In-Reply-To: References:

Ok, it's 5:30 and the dog, my WIFE's dog at that, has kept me up since 3:30 becuase she's sick. Can't sleep, so why not get a little work done. Now what do I find?!? Asteroids! That's all I needed. Now, no sleep and no work. It's going to be a long day. ;-> On 8/28/05, Mike Brubaker wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- >=20 > http://www.gamesgnome.com/arcade/asteroids/ >=20 > At 06:55 PM 8/27/2005, Bill Sapsis wrote: >=20 > >Asteroids. I wanna play asteroids. >=20 >=20 -- ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #502 *****************************