Return-Path: X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Lite Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 25638763; Mon, 21 Nov 2005 03:01:02 -0800 X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #592 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 03:00:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on prxy.net X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.5 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, SARE_MILLIONSOF autolearn=unavailable version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4f2 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #592 1. Re: Advertising genius. by "Bill Nelson" 2. Re: Kristi's POV on Rigging Cert. by Bill Sapsis 3. Re: Advertising genius. by Greg Williams 4. Re: Advertising genius. by IAEG [at] aol.com 5. Re: Advertising genius. by Charlie Richmond 6. Re: Kristi's POV on Rigging Cert. by "Donald A Rowe" 7. Re: Certification info. (long) by MissWisc [at] aol.com 8. Re: Advertising genius. by Greg Williams 9. Re: Kristi's POV on Rigging Cert. by "Matthew Breton" 10. Re: Certification info. by CB 11. Interesting use of resettable fuse by Jerry Durand 12. Re: Interesting use of resettable fuse by Charlie Richmond 13. Re: Interesting use of resettable fuse by Jerry Durand 14. Re: Certification by "Bill Conner" 15. Re: Advertising genius. by Jim Hyslop 16. Re: Certification by "Jeff Mabray" 17. Re: Certification info. by Bill Sapsis 18. Re: Certification by "Bill Conner" 19. Re: Interesting use of resettable fuse by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 20. Re: Interesting use of resettable fuse by Charlie Richmond 21. Re: Interesting use of resettable fuse by Jerry Durand 22. Re: Certification by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 23. Re: Kristi's POV on Rigging Cert. by "RD" 24. Re: Certification by Mick Alderson 25. Re: Certification info. by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 26. Re: Certification by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 27. Poseidon Adventure: I just have to vent! by Scott Parker 28. Re: Poseidon Adventure: I just have to vent! by IAEG [at] aol.com 29. Re: Advertising genius. by Kevin Lee Allen 30. Re: Poseidon Adventure: I just have to vent! by "Jon Ares" 31. rigging by Kevin Lee Allen 32. Re: Certification by Scott Parker 33. Re: Poseidon Adventure: I just have to vent! by Scott Parker 34. Stage Lighting Workshop: Sat. Jan. 7th NYC by Scott Parker 35. Re: Certification info. by "RD" 36. Re: Certification info. by Bill Sapsis *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-ID: <1556.208.51.52.108.1132492960.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 05:22:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Advertising genius. From: "Bill Nelson" > Picked this up from another forum and thought it would be interesting to > many here, in appreciation of the sheer magnitude PLUS the fact that this > was made with NO CGI!! Can this be viewed with an earlier version of QT? QT7 require XP/2000 and I run WIN98. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 08:15:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Kristi's POV on Rigging Cert. From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Andrew. Thanks for the post but I must humbly disagree with your assessment of job descriptions. The people who design rigging are also the people who install rigging. There are very, very few people in this world who's job it is to simply design rigging. Can you or your organization afford to have someone like that on your payroll? I can't. Riggers design and riggers rig. And riggers are constantly going into buildings that present oddball situations that require serious calculations and a very high level of understanding of things like math and physics. Your example of the Atlantic City failure is *exactly* why we need certification for riggers. Had the head rigger on that tour been certified and had the venue had one person on their staff who was certified, then the chances of that accident happening would have been all but eliminated. As far as the minimum requirements are concerned, I still disagree. For the group that we are trying to reach they DO meet the minimum requirements. The numbers at the test proved it. Andrew, other than your gut feelings about rigging and designers and stuff, from where are you drawing your information? We did not simply make up this test one day and foist it on the industry. We spent years (about 5) working on it, conducting surveys, review data asking questions, in an attempt to insure that this program was appropriate, accurate and, above all else, fair. (had I known what I was getting into in the beginning I may not have gotten involved. The time commitment was enormous) And, most importantly, it was put together by riggers. Not administrators. Not engineers. Not bosses (OK. Some of us are bosses also). Riggers. Very, very good riggers. People who have been in this industry for a very long time and have helped this industry grow. I've said it before but it bears repeating. This certification is exactly what this industry desperately needs. We need to be able to trust the rig that we are walking/working under. And the only way to do this is to trust the guy (gender neutral form of that word) in charge of putting that rig up there. And the only way to do that is to identify the skill level of that person. That's what Certification does. And a very important by-product of Certification is better training. This program will spawn more training programs, not just for top tier riggers, but also for entry and mid level people. Because many of those entry/mid level people want to move to the top tier and they will demand that training. ESTA, through it's Essential Skills program is already beginning to address that issue. And if you think trainers like myself and the others you all know are going to sit on our hands idly watching the parade pass us by, you've got some more thinking to do. I don't really know what else to say. I hear your concerns and I appreciate that you have your own POV. But the horse is out of the barn. The program is here to stay and I'm very proud of it. Thanks Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Join the Long Reach Long Riders on their 3rd annual cross country charity motorcycle ride. On 11/20/05 12:13 AM, "Riter, Andrew (Head Ltg)" wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > First, I agree that some sort of certification process is needed. But I also > do agree with Kristi's point of view. > > In British Columbia, entertainment electricians are certified by the > provincial government (I won't go into the stupid requirements that need to be > met for our piece of paper). But we are divided into 2 categories: a Limited > Entertainment, and a Full > Entertainment certificate. The differences are meaningless to this > discussion. > > My thought is that there are people who DESIGN rigging for a career (Bill, > Rock and roll concert designers, etc), and there are those that hang it > (either as part of the road crew or the local one day hires). The need for > knowledge of rigging practices, > physics, theory etc is vastly different between these two groups (yes yes > there is cross over of knowledge too). Proper training/certifications of the > designers would hopefully prevent the disasters we've seen > (Timberlake/Augulara pulling down the Super > truss). > > The ESTA test (as I understand it) definitely covers the first group, and so > it should. But what about the second group? To my experience, they put the > points where they are needed. If they need to make bridal to make a point > where there is no girder, > some physic comes into play, but for the majority of people that rig, they > will have a hard time meeting the minimum requirements. > > The rigger on the day of install has to assume that the weight of the load on > his/her point will be less than the SWL of all components and building. The > day riggers have no idea of the big picture, only that "a point goes here, > here and here". They > have no idea how much will be hung from each point. > > Does this test examine the correct method of bridaling(shackle orientation, > size of equipment so that shackles can't rotate through an eye and get side > loaded)? These are the sort the things the Riggers (as opposed to the Rigging > DESIGNERS) need to be > aware of, the day the rig goes up. > > > > Andrew M. Riter > Head Lighting Technician > Chan Centre, UBC > 604-822-2372 > > *********************** > You understand, we are tied down to a language which makes up in obscurity > what it lacks in style. > Stoppard, R&G are Dead > ************************ > > ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References:

Message-Id: <72003FC4-A9CD-4205-939C-191F67C5010E [at] appstate.edu> From: Greg Williams Subject: Re: Advertising genius. Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 08:54:21 -0500 On Nov 20, 2005, at 8:22 AM, Bill Nelson wrote: > Can this be viewed with an earlier version of QT? QT7 require XP/ > 2000 and > I run WIN98. > > Bill To Bill: I think the low-rez versions can be viewed with earlier QT's. To everyone: What a great commercial, and I loved the one fellow's comment that there's more "soul" in doing it live versus CGI. Did anyone else notice that with all the cool editing software at Sony's disposal, someone still left the "f" word in one of the "behind the scenes" clips? Do you think that it was meant to be intentionally edgy, or was it a slip-up? Inquiring minds and all that. -=Greg Williams=- Production Manager Valborg Theatre, Appalachian State University www.LRLR.org - 2006 ride dates July 9-18 - c'mon and join us! ------------------------------ From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: <22f.1ea985a.30b1de36 [at] aol.com> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:12:06 EST Subject: Re: Advertising genius. In a message dated 11/20/05 8:55:06 AM, gwilliams [at] appstate.edu writes: << Did anyone else notice that with all the cool editing software at Sony's disposal, someone still left the "f" word in one of the "behind the scenes" clips? Do you think that it was meant to be intentionally edgy, or was it a slip-up? >> remember , , this is the SONY EUROPE site, , not a US site, , , , they aren't quite as touchy about "bad words" over there very best, Keith Arsenault IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:08:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Charlie Richmond Subject: Re: Advertising genius. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: On Sun, 20 Nov 2005, IAEG [at] aol.com wrote: > remember , , this is the SONY EUROPE site, , not a US site, , , , they aren't > quite as touchy about "bad words" over there Yep. The last time BBC Radio 4 got a complaint about bad words was when a piece that was littered with them was played before the 8AM news... Charlie ------------------------------ Message-ID: <037a01c5edf6$56bea6c0$0201a8c0 [at] hsd1.pa.comcast.net> From: "Donald A Rowe" References: Subject: Re: Kristi's POV on Rigging Cert. Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:17:41 -0500 After reading all of the posts and my past frustrations rising up again I now have to insert my 2 cents.... > Riggers design and riggers rig. And riggers are constantly going into > buildings that present oddball situations that require serious calculations > and a very high level of understanding of things like math and physics. Most of the riggers I have seen couldn't spell vector let alone calculate the forces exerted on a point. Most of them use the "I was shown this way" method. The certified rigger system is a great idea and I will be taking the test as soon as possible but we have all run into the venue where for example, the high man runs the forklift but has no license and will tell you "I've been doing it this way and that's how it get's done". I am curios to hear stories of certified riggers being ignored despite their license. Just as a mild example of this I asked some of the riggers in my local about the certification and the basic response I got was........ "There is no such thing and besides you can't know enough to rig in every venue." Well that's my opinion delete it if you think I'm full of it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sapsis" To: "Stagecraft" Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 8:15 AM Subject: Re: Kristi's POV on Rigging Cert. > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Andrew. Thanks for the post but I must humbly disagree with your assessment > of job descriptions. The people who design rigging are also the people who > install rigging. There are very, very few people in this world who's job it > is to simply design rigging. Can you or your organization afford to have > someone like that on your payroll? I can't. > > Riggers design and riggers rig. And riggers are constantly going into > buildings that present oddball situations that require serious calculations > and a very high level of understanding of things like math and physics. > Your example of the Atlantic City failure is *exactly* why we need > certification for riggers. Had the head rigger on that tour been certified > and had the venue had one person on their staff who was certified, then the > chances of that accident happening would have been all but eliminated. > > As far as the minimum requirements are concerned, I still disagree. For the > group that we are trying to reach they DO meet the minimum requirements. > The numbers at the test proved it. > > Andrew, other than your gut feelings about rigging and designers and stuff, > from where are you drawing your information? We did not simply make up this > test one day and foist it on the industry. We spent years (about 5) working > on it, conducting surveys, review data asking questions, in an attempt to > insure that this program was appropriate, accurate and, above all else, > fair. (had I known what I was getting into in the beginning I may not have > gotten involved. The time commitment was enormous) And, most importantly, > it was put together by riggers. Not administrators. Not engineers. Not > bosses (OK. Some of us are bosses also). Riggers. Very, very good > riggers. People who have been in this industry for a very long time and > have helped this industry grow. > > I've said it before but it bears repeating. This certification is exactly > what this industry desperately needs. We need to be able to trust the rig > that we are walking/working under. And the only way to do this is to trust > the guy (gender neutral form of that word) in charge of putting that rig up > there. And the only way to do that is to identify the skill level of that > person. That's what Certification does. > > And a very important by-product of Certification is better training. This > program will spawn more training programs, not just for top tier riggers, > but also for entry and mid level people. Because many of those entry/mid > level people want to move to the top tier and they will demand that > training. ESTA, through it's Essential Skills program is already beginning > to address that issue. And if you think trainers like myself and the others > you all know are going to sit on our hands idly watching the parade pass us > by, you've got some more thinking to do. > > I don't really know what else to say. I hear your concerns and I appreciate > that you have your own POV. But the horse is out of the barn. The program > is here to stay and I'm very proud of it. > > Thanks > Bill S. > > www.sapsis-rigging.com > 800.727.7471 > 800.292.3851 fax > 267.278.4561 mobile > > Join the Long Reach Long Riders on their 3rd annual cross country charity > motorcycle ride. > > > > > > > > > On 11/20/05 12:13 AM, "Riter, Andrew (Head Ltg)" > wrote: > > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > First, I agree that some sort of certification process is needed. But I also > > do agree with Kristi's point of view. > > > > In British Columbia, entertainment electricians are certified by the > > provincial government (I won't go into the stupid requirements that need to be > > met for our piece of paper). But we are divided into 2 categories: a Limited > > Entertainment, and a Full > > Entertainment certificate. The differences are meaningless to this > > discussion. > > > > My thought is that there are people who DESIGN rigging for a career (Bill, > > Rock and roll concert designers, etc), and there are those that hang it > > (either as part of the road crew or the local one day hires). The need for > > knowledge of rigging practices, > > physics, theory etc is vastly different between these two groups (yes yes > > there is cross over of knowledge too). Proper training/certifications of the > > designers would hopefully prevent the disasters we've seen > > (Timberlake/Augulara pulling down the Super > > truss). > > > > The ESTA test (as I understand it) definitely covers the first group, and so > > it should. But what about the second group? To my experience, they put the > > points where they are needed. If they need to make bridal to make a point > > where there is no girder, > > some physic comes into play, but for the majority of people that rig, they > > will have a hard time meeting the minimum requirements. > > > > The rigger on the day of install has to assume that the weight of the load on > > his/her point will be less than the SWL of all components and building. The > > day riggers have no idea of the big picture, only that "a point goes here, > > here and here". They > > have no idea how much will be hung from each point. > > > > Does this test examine the correct method of bridaling(shackle orientation, > > size of equipment so that shackles can't rotate through an eye and get side > > loaded)? These are the sort the things the Riggers (as opposed to the Rigging > > DESIGNERS) need to be > > aware of, the day the rig goes up. > > > > > > > > Andrew M. Riter > > Head Lighting Technician > > Chan Centre, UBC > > 604-822-2372 > > > > *********************** > > You understand, we are tied down to a language which makes up in obscurity > > what it lacks in style. > > Stoppard, R&G are Dead > > ************************ > > > > > > ------------------------------ From: MissWisc [at] aol.com Message-ID: <59.3350f60e.30b20f7d [at] aol.com> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:42:21 EST Subject: Re: Certification info. (long) _bill [at] sapsis-rigging.com_ (mailto:bill [at] sapsis-rigging.com) writes: << Kristi. Looks like I have some explaining to do. First off, you should know that over 200 people took the test on Saturday, so at least somebody met the requirements. >> Oh Unkle! I hope you aren't considering this to be a personal attack. I have always held you in the greatest esteem. We both want people in our industry to be safe and competent. I believe that having national standards and an exam to prove it is an excellent thing. Please consider this to be a request for clarification and healthy discourse. << The ETCP certification was directed at the top 1/3rd of the rigging population. Why? Mostly because it would not be possibly to write a test that was fair and accurately identified the skill level of the people taking the test if those people represented too broad a range of experience. The test would have been meaningless. And by all accounts this test was not. >> Should it really matter if the guy who is hanging the truss does it every day or one day a month? Both must do it safely and correctly. My teacher certification and for that matter certification tests in any other field I can think of are designed to eliminate anyone who is unsafe/incompetent for the task. They are entry-level exams. Perhaps June is right and the ESTA exam should be renamed "Master Rigger Certification" to more accurately reflect the fact it's targeted at experienced masters of the craft. There are now national standards for what makes a "Master Teacher". In Wisconsin, we have a test called the PRAXIS for each teaching certification area. I was involved in the validity study for the PRAXIS for music teachers as well as working for Pearson/ETS on things with the new SATs, so I have experience in putting together nationally standardized tests. Passing the PRAXIS is a requirement before you are able to get your teacher certification here (which is also different than licensing... certification says I have passed the tests and shown you can do it, each state has different licensing requirements which make it legal for you to do it in that state. For example, even though I've taught for 15 years in WI, I'd have to do additional requirements to get my license in New York.) I know that wasn't ESTA's goal, but since they've started it, why not have an "entry level certification exam" also - perhaps consisting of basic safety things from the existing test? << Because I am involved (immersed?0 in this certification I will not spend too much time addressing the "what about the other guy" issues. I think you dealt with that well enough. There are many seminars, classes, apprenticeship programs out there that address the entry & middle level needs. And there will be many more. (check out the ESTA Essential Skills website) >> We're in agreement on that! <> With a $600 price tag, I don't think that anyone is going to take it just for the heck of it. I'd bet that many of those who did take it did so because their company or their company's insurance company wanted them to. My IA local discussed it and we'd love to send folks to take the test, but from our interpretation, no one meets the requirements. <> Perhaps the crux is this: Exactly what activites count towards the 30 points? If running the rig counts, Brian could probably qualify to take it. How can ESTA verify what was actually done on the job? As an IATSE hand in a mixed local, Brian works in all departments from time to time. There isn't any record kept of "He was on the fly rail" versus "he was a deck carp". Would having the BA say "He's rigged at venues A,B and C since 1990" be sufficent? What about employers who are no longer in business or who don't keep specific records? Can hours spent doing arena rigging count towards the theatre test or vice versa - or do you need 30 points in each area? If someone applies and ESTA says "you don't have enough hours that we can verify even though you've been doing this for 15 years" are you out the $600? <> You and Rocky are certainly not chopped liver. You are probably the top 2% of riggers. BUT since you were involved in the creation of the test, you may not ethically take the exam and hence you can't be ESTA certified riggers. :) That's the catch-22 for you the folks who put this together. Your staff can - and I hope they would! <> Perhaps because they are defining "rigging" as our IA local's executive board did. <> Professional theatres - YES! I bet Doom is thinking the same thing I am... what about non-professional venues? You already have a set of test questions which the psychometricians should have normed, checked for bias, and checked for validity. Break off a smaller test of say 1 hour in length for folks who work in HS/Non-profit theatres that focuses on operating a fly system safely, knots, working loads, and those common user activities. Perhaps a "fly operator certificate". Could make it something that a typical IA hand would have. You've already done the hard part - developing the questions and getting a place to administer them. << (cut) You know those little guns they use at the bar to squirt soda into your drink? They needed a license to install those. Did I? Nope. Not once did anyone (except a NY Times reporter) ask me if I knew what I was doing. (I told him, Yes, I did) In my city, you need a license to USE that little soda gun in a bar too. <> We're agreed! <> I know that feeling. I hope that if we can clarify what can count towards those 30 points and make it possible for get others to take the exam. As I said before, I want to know that the person hanging stuff overhead knows what they are doing. And though I wouldn't qualify for the master level test, I'd love to have something that says "Kristi can do this safely." K ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: From: Greg Williams Subject: Re: Advertising genius. Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:46:55 -0500 On Nov 20, 2005, at 9:12 AM, IAEG [at] aol.com wrote: > Do you think that it was meant to be intentionally edgy, or was it a > slip-up? >> > > remember , , this is the SONY EUROPE site, , not a US site, , , , > they aren't > quite as touchy about "bad words" over there > Yeah, okay, but it was a little surprising that it was edited out of others, and left in the one... -=Greg Williams=- Production Manager Valborg Theatre, Appalachian State University www.LRLR.org - 2006 ride dates July 9-18 - c'mon and join us! ------------------------------ Message-ID: In-Reply-To: From: "Matthew Breton" Subject: Re: Kristi's POV on Rigging Cert. Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 12:57:29 -0500 >Most of the riggers I have seen couldn't spell vector let alone calculate >the forces exerted on a >point. Most of them use the "I was shown this >way" method. Nah, not me. Working with a lot of hotels, I've met a few guys who come from the AV world and rig now and again; even they don't call themselves riggers. Rigging pays better, so it's attractive, but generally they're there to fill out a crew, not act as head rigger -- or structural engineer. They're AV guys, they get off on five-wire and triax and all that good stuff instead of shackles and spansets. So say I oversee a couple of guys rigging in a show. A lot of the work *is* pretty straightforward. To get the job done on a hotel timeline, I can't have everyone spend the first fifteen minutes, let alone the first hour, to break out the calculators and double-check the math. The more experienced guys hang points, the less experienced guys bolt truss together and watch the others so they *get* experienced. Now, I need to make certain every structural point on the truss or other flown gear is good before it flies anywhere. With some of my crew, I know that they know what they're doing (and they know I know it!) and I can observe their work from a distance and know they're doing a good job, or can easily tell when something bollixes up. With newer crew members, I go over the major details with them so that we both have confidence in their work. Eventually I wean them off of me standing over their shoulder, 'cause after it drives them (and me) crazy. If I've got the time to tell *why* a shackle should hang a certain way, instead of just showing them how to use one, good. Usually, over a dozen rigs with a guy, it'll come up. Or they'll hear it from another crew member. Or they're not curious, in which case they can keep on bolting truss together for me, while others get to do the fun stuff. The ETCP program shouldn't have to test whether you know how to swage nicosleeves correctly, or whatever. It's not that riggers don't need to know those things. For one thing, you'd never be able to test that at an H&R Block office :) But in real life, hanging a point isn't a multiple choice question. You can do it right, you can do it sloppy, you can do it all sorts of wrong. You need to look at the work as it's being performed no matter what. Given the ETCP's general qualification requirements -- a thousand points, or some time in a technical theater program where you're going to learn a lot more about shackles than you'll ever use -- you're going to have encountered that sort of information before. If you're serious about the test but not certain you'd make the grade, bone up on your knowledge. You'll learn it there, too. But show up on a call and get it wrong, and it's going to get known really quickly. -- Matt ======== _________________________________________________________________ Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20051120112823.00ce3d80 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:28:23 From: CB Subject: Re: Certification info. >they will be at H & R Block offices. So you can get your taxes >done and get certified all at the same time. Unfortunately, H&R Block revenooers don't have a clue as to what riggers do, or how they get paid for it. Usually, someone on the entertainment business that travels and is an employee of six or eight different entities a year, and a contractor to a dozen more, confuzzes the heck outta anyone who does taxes out of a supermarket stall. Last time I went to them, they just declined. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20051120103411.029e5500 [at] 192.168.0.13> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:43:04 -0800 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Interesting use of resettable fuse For those who like to build strange electrical things: I just built some prototypes for a customer using the new 50F Aerogel super capacitors (that's "F", not "uF") and had a problem with how to charge these up without toasting the power supply while protecting from smoke if the charging plug gets shorted. If you haven't seen these yet, they're almost a full battery, only you can recharge them millions of times and discharge them at really high currents. Normal inrush current limiters would still need a fuse in series, so I tried just using a Polyswitch resettable fuse (it's a thermistor, when it heats up, the resistance goes way up, when it cools, the resistance drops back). This turned out to be perfect, it actually self-regulates right about at the trip current charging the capacitors at almost a constant rate. Cheap, simple, tiny, reliable. Essentially a one-component battery/capacitor charger and fuse. -- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:04:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Charlie Richmond Subject: Re: Interesting use of resettable fuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: On Sun, 20 Nov 2005, Jerry Durand wrote: > I just built some prototypes for a customer using the new 50F Aerogel super > capacitors (that's "F", not "uF") and had a problem with how to charge these url? How expensive? Do they hold a charge well over long periods of minimal external power drain? How would they do as an auto battery substitute? (ie, with brief periods of very high current requirements but otherwise simply a smoothing/short term storage unit). > Normal inrush current limiters would still need a fuse in series, so I tried > just using a Polyswitch resettable fuse (it's a thermistor, when it heats up, > the resistance goes way up, when it cools, the resistance drops back). This > turned out to be perfect, it actually self-regulates right about at the trip > current charging the capacitors at almost a constant rate. Cheap, simple, > tiny, reliable. Brilliant solution! We've been using them successfully for years with extremely good results. They are extremely robust, seem to last forever and are almost faultless. An amazing device! BTW, they are available from a variety of sources, most of them cheaper than the Polyswitch brand.... Charlie ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20051120111032.029ff2c8 [at] 192.168.0.13> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 11:15:24 -0800 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: Interesting use of resettable fuse In-Reply-To: References:

At 11:04 AM 11/20/2005, you wrote: >>I just built some prototypes for a customer using the new 50F >>Aerogel super capacitors (that's "F", not "uF") and had a problem >>with how to charge these > >url? http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Criteria?Ref=440146&Site=US&Cat=31785499 >How expensive? 50F ones are $26.78 each if you only buy one. >Do they hold a charge well over long periods of minimal external >power drain? Seem to, I haven't done any long term hold tests. >How would they do as an auto battery substitute? (ie, with brief >periods of very high current requirements but otherwise simply a >smoothing/short term storage unit). They're used in the Prius for the brakes. >Brilliant solution! We've been using them successfully for years >with extremely good results. They are extremely robust, seem to >last forever and are almost faultless. An amazing device! BTW, >they are available from a variety of sources, most of them cheaper >than the Polyswitch brand.... A trivia bit that most people don't know, a PTC thermistor is a MECHANICAL device. You take metal particles, imbed them in ceramic so they're touching and you have low resistance. Heat up the ceramic and it expands, breaking contacts between the particles. The more contacts you break, the higher the resistance. -- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <000d01c5ee0b$ffdd6ec0$7301a8c0 [at] BCA1> Reply-To: "Bill Conner" From: "Bill Conner" Subject: Re: Certification Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 13:52:44 -0600 As far as eligibility, my opinion is some of you are taking the "rigging work experience" too strictly. If you hang curtains and drops, run sets, etc., I would think certainly this time counts. I'd be tempted to say that if you worked part time - 25 hours a month - yes you would have to work ten years. So is it for the part timer? Maybe not and perhaps you should be at least half time rigger - 1000 hrs per year or three years. It seems from having been in the theatre exam that most of the examinees were union guys who work full time as a stage hand, but then I only chatted with a couple and looks can be deceiving. There were a number of installer types - not company owners but the guys who regularly work on installs. I only recognized a few of us - 5 or 6 - who are in manufacturing and consulting side - and we were there for mostly personal reasons or to find out what it was all about or to support the program. (Man, will this hurt if I don't pass and that is a possibility.) I can't reveal details of exam but it covered a broad range of skills and tasks, nearly all that have been mentioned here and many more. Look at the "content outline" on the web site - it was pretty accurate. It was broader and more difficult than I had been led to believe by at least two of the SME's - or maybe I was set up. For my part as a consultant, I'm fairly confident that an install supervisory should be able to pass this and I may include that in my specifications. A house rigger for a large facility should be able to pass this. Anyone specifically responsible for rigging safety and quality control should certainly be able to pass this. I would hope that all in those positions had the equivalent of 1 1/2 year full time in the trade. That doesn't seem like much. Based on the questions and comments, I think if you take the exam as I did you will agree that it does reasonably test skills and tasks that the in-charge folks doing production work should know - which is exactly the target that was set. Take the exam and find out. Bill ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4380D4CF.1030004 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:55:59 -0500 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: Advertising genius. References:

In-Reply-To: Kevin Lee Allen wrote: > OK! that was good, let's get another one. Set them up. Nah, we'll fix it in post. -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ From: "Jeff Mabray" Cc: bill [at] bcaworld.com (Bill Conner) Subject: RE: Certification Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 13:59:12 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Bill Conner opined: " For my part as a consultant, I'm fairly confident that an install supervisory should be able to pass this and I may include that in my specifications. A house rigger for a large facility should be able to pass this. Anyone specifically responsible for rigging safety and quality control should certainly be able to pass this. I would hope that all in those positions had the equivalent of 1 1/2 year full time in the trade. That doesn't seem like much." What about consultants? These people design rigging systems all the time but rarely, if ever, actually install or work with. (I only speak of the consultants that I know of and work with regularly) How do they qualify to take the test? As an industry, should we be pushing those people to be certified as well, or are they covered by another entity? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:29:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Certification info. From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: CB. It ain't about the taxes. The certification administration company simply rents some space from H & R Block. The two are not intertwined. Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Join the Long Reach Long Riders on their 3rd annual cross country charity motorcycle ride. On 11/20/05 11:28 AM, "CB" wrote: > Unfortunately, H&R Block revenooers don't have a clue as to what riggers > do, or how they get paid for it. Usually, someone on the entertainment > business that travels and is an employee of six or eight different entities > a year, and a contractor to a dozen more, confuzzes the heck outta anyone > who does taxes out of a supermarket stall. > Last time I went to them, they just declined. ------------------------------ Message-ID: <001201c5ee12$93f29da0$7301a8c0 [at] BCA1> Reply-To: "Bill Conner" From: "Bill Conner" Cc: jeff.mabray [at] comcast.net (Jeff Mabray) References: Subject: Re: Certification Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:39:54 -0600 Jeff posted: "What about consultants? These people design rigging systems all the time but rarely, if ever, actually install or work with. (I only speak of the consultants that I know of and work with regularly) How do they qualify to take the test? As an industry, should we be pushing those people to be certified as well, or are they covered by another entity?" I certainly am not doing rigging on stage but a few occasions a year and then only for a day or two at most. ( I have done much more prior to turning consultant, as have many other professional consultants.) On the other hand, I read whatever I can on the subject, talk to other experts in the field, and try to stay up to date. I most enjoy when I can chat with basic union stage hands, ask them questions about what works and what doesn't, and so on. And I also try to find occasions where I can just observe riggers working. But " design" is a key word in your question. Do I establish a layout of rigging for a permanent install, set parameters such as quantity and capacity of line sets, type (single purchase, double purchase (I hope never), motorized, hemp and bag), and specify features, functional requirements , and minimal design factors? Yes. But there is more to the design and the successful fabrication and installation of the system depends on the manufacturer's and installers to do their job as well. I don't do structural engineering but make sure the work is reviewed by a structural engineer. Architects and engineers are registered design professions. Theatre consultant's are generally not registered (a few are but even of those who are I don't believe any of them seal drawings) and there is so far no program of registration for this very small profession - maybe 100 people in the US. Do look at http://www.theatreconsultants.org/ though for a list of professional theatre consultants and let me know if we have the same folks in mind. How did I qualify? 23 years of full time consulting and at least 25% of my time spent on rigging design - well over 100 points. I didn't even bother with education - to much hassle and cost. And I think I could say 1/3 of my time and know I work more like 2500 or more hours, not 2080 - so close to 200 points but after 30, it didn't matter, did it? Now, I suppose if I pass the exam - even along with the two other consultants I saw take the test - I'd say sure, require that consultants who design rigging be certified. But that won't happen and it's ok. Bill ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <2b6.54e48.30b25981 [at] aol.com> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:58:09 EST Subject: Re: Interesting use of resettable fuse In a message dated 20/11/05 19:04:39 GMT Standard Time, charlier [at] RichmondSoundDesign.com writes: > Brilliant solution! We've been using them successfully for years with > extremely > good results. They are extremely robust, seem to last forever and are > almost > faultless. An amazing device! BTW, they are available from a variety of > sources, most of them cheaper than the Polyswitch brand.... They are. The UK brand name I know them under is "Littelfuse", as I remember. They are ideal for loudspeaker protection, as their cold resistance is much lower than that of a conventional fuse. Any additional impedance in series between a loudspeaker and its drive amplifier is bad news, as it impairs the damping. Conventional fuses offer surprisingly high impedances, given the area in which one is working here. From the electromagnatic damping side, one has perhaps an 8 ohm source working into a load of less than 0.5 ohm at the amplifier. Adding even 0.25 ohm into the path is significant. The only problem that I had was that the available values formed an inadequate set, but this was in the early days. Also the range which would handle our 230V supplies was even more limited. We were looking at them about 15 years ago, particularly in 12V battery chargers, in which I had a particular interest at the time. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:02:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Charlie Richmond Subject: Re: Interesting use of resettable fuse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: On Sun, 20 Nov 2005, FrankWood95 [at] aol.com wrote: > The only problem that I had was that the available values formed an > inadequate set, but this was in the early days. Also the range which would handle our > 230V supplies was even more limited. They still can't handle voltages higher than about 70V I think... > We were looking at them about 15 years ago, particularly in 12V battery > chargers, in which I had a particular interest at the time. They also aren't available in really low or high amperage values, either but their range is pretty wide and quite useful for this purpose... Charlie ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20051120150727.02970fc0 [at] 192.168.0.13> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:07:51 -0800 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: Interesting use of resettable fuse In-Reply-To: References:

At 03:02 PM 11/20/2005, you wrote: >They also aren't available in really low or high amperage values, >either but their range is pretty wide and quite useful for this purpose... The Polyfuse line I used goes down to 0.1A trip and up to 60V. -- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <25b.1c496d7.30b2625c [at] aol.com> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 18:35:56 EST Subject: Re: Certification In a message dated 20/11/05 20:40:36 GMT Standard Time, bill-conner [at] att.net writes: > Architects and engineers are registered design professions. Theatre > consultant's are generally not registered (a few are but even of those who > are I don't believe any of them seal drawings) and there is so far no > program of registration for this very small profession - maybe 100 people in > > the US. Do look at http://www.theatreconsultants.org/ though for a list of > professional theatre consultants and let me know if we have the same folks > in mind. Even so, it can be very difficult to get right. Start off with the engineer. Are the original structural drawinggs and the design calculations on which they were based available? Has the structure been modified, with the same caveats? It needs to be borne in mind that older structural materials had different properties from those now available. For example, in the mid-ninetenth century, wrought iron was commonly used, where we should now use mild steel. The two have different properties. As for the architect, his problems are even worse, but related. Have holes been made in structural walls? Have they been filled in? The passage from gas lighting to electricity required changes. Has decorative plasterwork stood the test of time? Apparently not, from the recent incident at the London Coliseum. Above all, can you achive the requirements of the modern management while keeping the period atmosphere, and conforming to modern safety standards? All this applys to pre-existing and elderly theatres, of which there are many. With these, the aesthetics are defined, I hope. To build a new one, from the ground up, is more challenging, and undoubtably there are things that will be wrong. To take a concrete example, I attended the opening night of the 'Opera Bastille', in Paris. I soon noticed the absence of high side FOH lighting positions. The last time I visited the hyouse, I saw that this had been remedied. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "RD" Subject: RE: Kristi's POV on Rigging Cert. Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:39:20 -0700 In-reply-to: Message-ID: I believe it might be difficult to state that "all people who design rigging are also those who install rigging." Perhaps it is not broad enough in its context or in its definition. I certainly have been involved for half a century in writing specifications for rigging, product analysis of rigging components, but I have never installed rigging systems per se. Perhaps the phrase "design rigging" could be expanded or receive more focus as to its intent, i.e. design the components that to into a rigging system, or specify rigging. Bill is correct in his assessment that the test was not just drawn from out in space. We, meaning my company and our associates, have been developing rigging requirements long before ESTA, and developing certification guidelines, and have indeed submitted them to ESTA over the long haul. Many people, many experts from many companies, countries, have been involved in our own personal advancement of rigging requirements and certification, all the way back to 1975 when we first raised this with all the rigging companies at USITT. I agree with Bill that certification is needed and our own attempts and organization at developing those requirements goes along with his statements. Perhaps I have been more involved than Bill over the long haul of many years, since 1943, and can see the perspective that gives us all the picture of need for skilled riggers. In point of face, most of those who were involved have been involved in the programs we began many years ago in our Risk Management Rigging Workshops, in this country and elsewhere. Again, in agreement with Bill, our work, thankfully, has spawned other groups around the planet in developing further training. We have involved some of the largest industrial groups in the world in our own development of rigging skills and find that direction is the direction needed. WE are duly appreciative of the work that the committees have done, and we continue to keep our contacts with a number of groups and corporations outside of this country who believe the certification is the way to proceed. Respectfully, Dr. Doom -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Bill Sapsis Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 6:16 AM To: Stagecraft Subject: Re: Kristi's POV on Rigging Cert. For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Andrew. Thanks for the post but I must humbly disagree with your assessment of job descriptions. The people who design rigging are also the people who install rigging. There are very, very few people in this world who's job it is to simply design rigging. Can you or your organization afford to have someone like that on your payroll? I can't. Riggers design and riggers rig. And riggers are constantly going into buildings that present oddball situations that require serious calculations and a very high level of understanding of things like math and physics. Your example of the Atlantic City failure is *exactly* why we need certification for riggers. Had the head rigger on that tour been certified and had the venue had one person on their staff who was certified, then the chances of that accident happening would have been all but eliminated. As far as the minimum requirements are concerned, I still disagree. For the group that we are trying to reach they DO meet the minimum requirements. The numbers at the test proved it. Andrew, other than your gut feelings about rigging and designers and stuff, from where are you drawing your information? We did not simply make up this test one day and foist it on the industry. We spent years (about 5) working on it, conducting surveys, review data asking questions, in an attempt to insure that this program was appropriate, accurate and, above all else, fair. (had I known what I was getting into in the beginning I may not have gotten involved. The time commitment was enormous) And, most importantly, it was put together by riggers. Not administrators. Not engineers. Not bosses (OK. Some of us are bosses also). Riggers. Very, very good riggers. People who have been in this industry for a very long time and have helped this industry grow. I've said it before but it bears repeating. This certification is exactly what this industry desperately needs. We need to be able to trust the rig that we are walking/working under. And the only way to do this is to trust the guy (gender neutral form of that word) in charge of putting that rig up there. And the only way to do that is to identify the skill level of that person. That's what Certification does. And a very important by-product of Certification is better training. This program will spawn more training programs, not just for top tier riggers, but also for entry and mid level people. Because many of those entry/mid level people want to move to the top tier and they will demand that training. ESTA, through it's Essential Skills program is already beginning to address that issue. And if you think trainers like myself and the others you all know are going to sit on our hands idly watching the parade pass us by, you've got some more thinking to do. I don't really know what else to say. I hear your concerns and I appreciate that you have your own POV. But the horse is out of the barn. The program is here to stay and I'm very proud of it. Thanks Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Join the Long Reach Long Riders on their 3rd annual cross country charity motorcycle ride. On 11/20/05 12:13 AM, "Riter, Andrew (Head Ltg)" wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > First, I agree that some sort of certification process is needed. But I also > do agree with Kristi's point of view. > > In British Columbia, entertainment electricians are certified by the > provincial government (I won't go into the stupid requirements that need to be > met for our piece of paper). But we are divided into 2 categories: a Limited > Entertainment, and a Full > Entertainment certificate. The differences are meaningless to this > discussion. > > My thought is that there are people who DESIGN rigging for a career (Bill, > Rock and roll concert designers, etc), and there are those that hang it > (either as part of the road crew or the local one day hires). The need for > knowledge of rigging practices, > physics, theory etc is vastly different between these two groups (yes yes > there is cross over of knowledge too). Proper training/certifications of the > designers would hopefully prevent the disasters we've seen > (Timberlake/Augulara pulling down the Super > truss). > > The ESTA test (as I understand it) definitely covers the first group, and so > it should. But what about the second group? To my experience, they put the > points where they are needed. If they need to make bridal to make a point > where there is no girder, > some physic comes into play, but for the majority of people that rig, they > will have a hard time meeting the minimum requirements. > > The rigger on the day of install has to assume that the weight of the load on > his/her point will be less than the SWL of all components and building. The > day riggers have no idea of the big picture, only that "a point goes here, > here and here". They > have no idea how much will be hung from each point. > > Does this test examine the correct method of bridaling(shackle orientation, > size of equipment so that shackles can't rotate through an eye and get side > loaded)? These are the sort the things the Riggers (as opposed to the Rigging > DESIGNERS) need to be > aware of, the day the rig goes up. > > > > Andrew M. Riter > Head Lighting Technician > Chan Centre, UBC > 604-822-2372 > > *********************** > You understand, we are tied down to a language which makes up in obscurity > what it lacks in style. > Stoppard, R&G are Dead > ************************ > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <43811C2E.2020904 [at] uwosh.edu> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 19:00:30 -0600 From: Mick Alderson Subject: Re: Certification June Abernathy wrote: > And while > you don't expect every venue to have all "certified" > riggers on staff, maybe the suits who run the > buildings and their insurance people don't quite > understand that only a minute percentage of the > industry is certified, or, under the rigorous criteria > currently set, COULD be certified. What if they start > requiring it, because it exists? Or paying people who > don't have it less? I would point out that this is already happening. I am in the same IA Local as Kristi, and we have a venue for which Clear Channel is the booking agency. We negotiated a new contract this Fall, and Clear Channel was already trying to insert language requiring we supply ALL and ONLY Cerified riggers for their shows. We managed to get the language changed THIS time partially because the test hadn't even been given yet! (Not that any of us could likely meet all the requirements, anyway.) But the handwriting is on the wall. I have been to the information sessions on the certification test presented at the last few USITT conventions, so I know a bit of the backgound. More counts as rigging than you might think. Our industry needs something like this, and I certainly laud the work and goals of the Committee. They did not expect that every rigger would need to be certified, but don't be surprised if our employers don't agree. After all, it should shift responsibility for any accident pretty firmly onto the "Certified Rigger" who "allowed" it to happen, at least in the eyes of a jury. -- Mick Alderson TD, Fredric March Theatre University of Wis. Oshkosh ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 01:05:43 GMT Subject: Re: Certification info. Message-Id: <20051120.170641.17548.5848 [at] webmail37.lax.untd.com> Dear Bill, Will the cost of 'Errors and Omissions' (or other non-vehicular) liabili= ty insurance of those who become certified be lowered? Was this a factor= ed in to the net cost for someone to become certified? /s/ Richard __________________________________ CB. It ain't about the taxes. = Bill S. ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 01:36:45 GMT Subject: Re: Certification Message-Id: <20051120.173709.17548.5915 [at] webmail37.lax.untd.com> Dear Nick, = I also see the industry going in the way that you suggest with ever-incr= easing numbers of personnel being required to be certified. For decades,= I have always been ready to pay a premium to Certified Welders who carr= y their own E&O and Workers Comp insurance. When practicable, I have als= o given a hiring preference to semi-retired but still licensed, bonded,= and insured electrical contractors who can electrically build, tie-in, = wire, or rig my shows. There is not a substantial difference between the= IBEW and IA rates for the time involved. When the Electrical Certificat= ion testing process is completed by the ESTA working group involved, I M= IGHT switch over to ESTA-Certified Electricians in those situations wher= e hiring a licensed electrical contractor is either not cost effective f= or the risk involved or there is no licensed and insured personnel avail= able. /s/ Richard ____________________ More counts as rigging than you might think. Our industry needs somethin= g like this, and I certainly laud the work and goals of = the Committee. They did not expect that every rigger would need to be certified, but don't be surprised if our employers don't agree. After = all, it should shift responsibility for any accident pretty firmly onto = the "Certified Rigger" who "allowed" it to happen, at least in the eyes = of a jury. Mick Alderson ------------------------------ Message-ID: <90d9c9980511201739g16ae0e9cjadf7b75ffd404f67 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:39:42 -0500 From: Scott Parker Subject: Poseidon Adventure: I just have to vent! OMG! How could they do this to such a classic movie?!? I wanted to rant: I'm speechless... For anyone who happened to see this TV dreck, PLEASE go rent the original. The one with Gene Hackman, Ernest Borgnine, Red Buttons, Carol Lynley, Roddy McDowall, Stella Stevens, Shelley Winters, Jack Albertson. -- Take care, Scott =09Scott C. Parker =09Professor/Technical Director =09Dept. of Performing Arts =09Dyson College of Arts and Sciences [at] Pace University =09Office/shipping: 41 Park Row, 1205F =09Mailing: 1 Pace Plaza =09New York, NY 10038 =09212-346-1423 Fax: 914-989-8425 ------------------------------ From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: <128.697a4dd9.30b27fd4 [at] aol.com> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 20:41:40 EST Subject: Re: Poseidon Adventure: I just have to vent! In a message dated 11/20/05 8:40:20 PM, scparker [at] gmail.com writes: << OMG! How could they do this to such a classic movie?!? I wanted to rant: I'm speechless... For anyone who happened to see this TV dreck, PLEASE go rent the original. The one with Gene Hackman, Ernest Borgnine, Red Buttons, Carol Lynley, Roddy McDowall, Stella Stevens, Shelley Winters, Jack Albertson. >> just please, please do not subject me to another chorus of THERE'S GOT TO BE A MORNING AFTER PLEASE ! very best, Keith Arsenault IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 21:03:15 -0500 From: Kevin Lee Allen Subject: Re: Advertising genius. In-reply-to: Message-id: <1DF05FFF-9ED8-44C7-8C45-C5A8B30A2093 [at] klad.com> References:

OK< as long as some one understands /sarcasm/ in plain text On Nov 20, 2005, at 2:55 PM, Jim Hyslop wrote: > Nah, we'll fix it in post. ----- Kevin Lee Allen Architect of Dreams http://www.klad.com 973.744.6352.voice 201.280.3841.mobile klad [at] klad.com =F0 ------------------------------ Message-ID: <000d01c5ee40$250cca40$0600000a [at] BRUTUS> From: "Jon Ares" References: Subject: Re: Poseidon Adventure: I just have to vent! Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 18:06:11 -0800 > OMG! How could they do this to such a classic movie?!? I wanted to > rant: I'm speechless... > I hear you, man... I was dumbstruck when I heard it was coming. I'm dumbstruck AGAIN as I just heard on the news that there's a theatrical (cinema) release coming next year with Kurt Russell!!! Ugh. For those that may not know... "The Poseidon Adventure" was the first mega-disaster movie to kick off the 70's spell of human distaster movies: the Airport films, Towering Inferno, Earthquake, etc. - Jon Ares www.hevanet.com/acreative ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 21:11:07 -0500 From: Kevin Lee Allen Subject: rigging Message-id: Look, this is all out of my my purview, but: it would see to me there are are some valid issues here, all of which =20= might make for more time investment by the volunteers, and I =20 understand volunteer time: ' 1. is there a 'rigger' 2. is there a 'master rigger.' 3. I there is a rigging designer?' Should there be differentiated? ----- Kevin Lee Allen Architect of Dreams http://www.klad.com 973.744.6352.voice 201.280.3841.mobile klad [at] klad.com =F0 ------------------------------ Message-ID: <90d9c9980511201820g1b1e3873w58ac8b2882b52b9 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 21:20:37 -0500 From: Scott Parker Subject: Re: Certification In-Reply-To: References: Perhaps the method of review of the application materials can be examined. If you send in your resume and list of "points" and a check for $600, you run the risk of losing some of your money. I believe, if you get rejected, you would get a $400 refund. Well, $200 to have my materials reviewed seems a bit steep. It will be very telling to see the list of passing test takers and then viewing their resumes. On 11/20/05, Mick Alderson wrote: > I have been to the information sessions on the certification test > presented at the last few USITT conventions, so I know a bit of the > backgound. More counts as rigging than you might think. > > -- > Mick Alderson > > TD, Fredric March Theatre > University of Wis. Oshkosh > -- Take care, Scott =09Scott C. Parker =09Professor/Technical Director =09Dept. of Performing Arts =09Dyson College of Arts and Sciences [at] Pace University =09Office/shipping: 41 Park Row, 1205F =09Mailing: 1 Pace Plaza =09New York, NY 10038 =09212-346-1423 Fax: 914-989-8425 ------------------------------ Message-ID: <90d9c9980511201830xbabdc7qc09221e78de59a80 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 21:30:05 -0500 From: Scott Parker Subject: Re: Poseidon Adventure: I just have to vent! In-Reply-To: References:

Just so you know, This version has the ship hit by terrorists. Rogo is a homeland security sea marshal, (not a cop on vacation.) The capt. got shot. The Olympic swimmer, Winter's part, is a widow. No Jack Albertson. Keith, you can relax. the pretty girl didn't sing... Not yet anyway and the ship is already upside down. Back when the movie came out, I made my dad take me several times. In fact, I think he sat in the car reading the paper during my third viewing. Scott On 11/20/05, Jon Ares wrote: > I hear you, man... I was dumbstruck when I heard it was coming. I'm > dumbstruck AGAIN as I just heard on the news that there's a theatrical > (cinema) release coming next year with Kurt Russell!!! Ugh. > > - Jon Ares > www.hevanet.com/acreative > > -- Take care, Scott =09Scott C. Parker =09Professor/Technical Director =09Dept. of Performing Arts =09Dyson College of Arts and Sciences [at] Pace University =09Office/shipping: 41 Park Row, 1205F =09Mailing: 1 Pace Plaza =09New York, NY 10038 =09212-346-1423 Fax: 914-989-8425 ------------------------------ Message-ID: <90d9c9980511201938v25085fdas6b395573dfb20839 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:38:02 -0500 From: Scott Parker Subject: Stage Lighting Workshop: Sat. Jan. 7th NYC Greetings All, Sonny Sonnenfeld and I are producing an all day lighting seminar here in NYC on Jan. 7th, 2006. Several well know lighting professionals well be speaking/presenting. For info: www.stagelightingseminars.com -- Take care, Scott =09Scott C. Parker =09USITT NY Section ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "RD" Subject: RE: Certification info. Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:43:36 -0700 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you Richard .... a salient point. Doom -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of ladesigners [at] juno.com Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 6:06 PM To: Stagecraft Subject: Re: Certification info. For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Dear Bill, Will the cost of 'Errors and Omissions' (or other non-vehicular) liability insurance of those who become certified be lowered? Was this a factored in to the net cost for someone to become certified? /s/ Richard __________________________________ CB. It ain't about the taxes. Bill S. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 05:51:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Certification info. From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Richard. You aren't serious, are you? We've been talking about a rigging exam, not insurance companies. What happens with rates for any type of insurance is up to the insurance companies, not trade associations or rigging companies. Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Join the Long Reach Long Riders on their 3rd annual cross country charity motorcycle ride. On 11/20/05 8:05 PM, "ladesigners [at] juno.com" wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Dear Bill, > Will the cost of 'Errors and Omissions' (or other non-vehicular) liability > insurance of those who become certified be lowered? Was this a factored in to > the net cost for someone to become certified? > /s/ Richard > __________________________________ > CB. It ain't about the taxes. > Bill S. > > ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #592 *****************************