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X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 25676046; Wed, 23 Nov 2005 03:01:26 -0800 X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #595 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 03:00:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on prxy.net X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.6 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, TW_KL autolearn=unavailable version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4f2 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #595 1. Re: DMX termination by "Paul Sanow" 2. Got your 6 by "Stephen E. Rees" 3. Re: Got your 6 - Whole Nine Yards by IAEG [at] aol.com 4. Re: Got your 6 - Whole Nine Yards by Stephen Litterst 5. Re: Got your 6 - Whole Nine Yards by IAEG [at] aol.com 6. Re: Got your 6 - Whole Nine Yards by Stephen Litterst 7. Re: Got your 6 - Whole Nine Yards by IAEG [at] aol.com 8. Portable Seating by "Dempsey, John" 9. Re: Certification info. by "Bill Conner" 10. Re: Portable Seating by Stephen Litterst 11. Re: Rigging Certification by "Bill Conner" 12. Re: Portable Seating by Steve Larson 13. Re: Portable Seating by "richard j. archer" 14. Re: DMX termination by Jerry Durand 15. Re: Rigging Certification by MissWisc [at] aol.com 16. Re: Rigging Certification by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 17. Re: Got your 6 - Whole Nine Yards by "Jon Ares" 18. Rigging certification by b Ricie 19. Re: Portable Seating by "JUSTIN DAVID BENNETT" 20. Certification expanded by Stephen Litterst 21. Christmas lights by Jerry Durand 22. Re: Andrew's POV on Rigging Cert (was Kristi's thread) by "Riter, Andrew (Head Ltg)" 23. Re: Andrew's POV on Rigging Cert (was Kristi's thread) by Jim Hyslop 24. Re: Rigging Certification by "Michael Finney" 25. Choreographed Light Display by CB 26. Re: Choreographed Light Display by CB 27. Re: Choreographed Light Display by Charlie Richmond 28. Re: Choreographed Light Display by CB 29. Re: Choreographed Light Display by Jonathan Wills 30. Re: Choreographed Light Display by Charlie Richmond 31. In reference to Rigging Certification. by CB 32. DMX termination by CB 33. Re: Certification expanded by "RD" 34. USB to RS-232/485 board by Jerry Durand 35. Re: Andrew's POV on Rigging Cert (was Kristi's thread) by Greg Williams 36. Covad down by Jerry Durand 37. Re: What kind of system can do this? (fwd) by Charlie Richmond 38. Re: Andrew's POV on Rigging Cert (was Kristi's thread) by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 39. Re: Choreographed Light Display by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 40. Re: DMX termination by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 41. Re: DMX termination by Jerry Durand 42. Re: Choreographed Light Display by "Don Taco" 43. The problem at hand by Mike McElroy 44. Re: The problem at hand by Bill Sapsis 45. Re: The problem at hand by Dale Farmer 46. Re: Choreographed Light Display by Jim Hyslop 47. Re: Choreographed Light Display by Jim Hyslop 48. Re: Choreographed Light Display by Jim Hyslop 49. Re: Choreographed Light Display by megironda [at] att.net (Gerry G.) 50. Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. by Norman Lazarus 51. Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. by Dale Farmer 52. Re: Rigging Certification by June Abernathy 53. Re: Rigging Certification by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 54. Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. by "Occy" 55. Re: DMX termination by "Bill Nelson" 56. Re: What kind of system can do this? (fwd) by "Bill Nelson" *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: DMX termination Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:18:29 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Paul Sanow" snip > I am attempting to build a DMX terminator. My research has=20 > lead me to=20 > believe I need a 1W 120 ohm resistor. I have at my disposal a 1W 150=20 > ohm resistor and an 0.25W 120 ohm resistor. So now I ask those far=20 > wiser than I, which resistor should I use? My copy of Recommended Practice indicates a 1/4 w is fine. The resister = should match the impedance of your actual cable, but 120ohm is generally = considered acceptable. We build ours with 1/4w resistors. Paul *********************************************************** Paul Sanow psanow [at] vls.com Technical Sales www.vincentlighting.com Vincent Lighting Systems 1420 Jamike Ln. #2 Erlanger, KY 41018 (859) 525-2000 x211 FAX (859) 525-2050 *********************************************************** ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4383211D.2050804 [at] fredonia.edu> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:46:05 -0500 From: "Stephen E. Rees" Reply-To: Rees [at] fredonia.edu Subject: Got your 6 References: Bill, Fighter pilot jargon. I've got your 6:00 o'clock position. Am behind you fending off bad guys. IOW - I'm covering your ass. Steve Bill Sapsis wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Could someone explain to me where the phrase "I've got your six" comes from? > I know what it means I just can't remember the connection. > > Bill S > www.sapsis-rigging.com > 800.727.7471 > 800.292.3851 fax > 267.278.4561 mobile > > Join the Long Reach Long Riders on their 3rd annual cross country charity > motorcycle ride. > > > > > > > On 11/21/05 8:22 PM, "MissWisc [at] aol.com" wrote: > > >>I got your six, Unkle! > > ------------------------------ From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: <21d.37381a8.30b47bcd [at] aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:49:01 EST Subject: Re: Got your 6 - Whole Nine Yards In a message dated 11/22/05 8:46:08 AM, Rees [at] fredonia.edu writes: << Bill, Fighter pilot jargon. I've got your 6:00 o'clock position. Am behind you fending off bad guys. IOW - I'm covering your ass. Steve >> the "Whole Nine Yards" is fighter pilot jargon as well, , , referring to the 27' of machine gun belt / ammo in WWII Fighters, I "gave them the whole nine yards" would be they emptied the magazine into the target. I had always wondered where that phrase came from , , the "Nine Yards" just didn't make sense to me in any frame of reference I would think of, I think I heard it explained on some cable documentary one night when I couldn't sleep very best, Keith Arsenault IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:06:09 -0500 From: Stephen Litterst Subject: Re: Got your 6 - Whole Nine Yards In-reply-to: Message-id: <438325D1.5090604 [at] ithaca.edu> Organization: IC-Dept. of Theatre Arts References: IAEG [at] aol.com wrote: > --------------------------------------------------- > > the "Whole Nine Yards" is fighter pilot jargon as well, , , referring to the > 27' of machine gun belt / ammo in WWII Fighters, > > I "gave them the whole nine yards" would be they emptied the magazine into > the target. > > I had always wondered where that phrase came from , , the "Nine Yards" just > didn't make sense to me in any frame of reference I would think of, The problem with this is that there is no record of the saying previous to 1966. For it to be a WWII saying, and kept out of the written record for 20 years is unlikely. Other possibilities are the cement industry (capacity of a mixer), textiles (amount of cloth on a bolt of fabric), and sailing (number of sails). More speculation on "The Whole Nine Yards" can be found here -- http://www.yaelf.com/nineyards.shtml and here -- http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_252.html Steve L. -- Stephen C. Litterst Technical Supervisor Ithaca College Dept. of Theatre Arts 607/274-3947 slitterst [at] ithaca.edu ------------------------------ From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:15:03 EST Subject: Re: Got your 6 - Whole Nine Yards In a message dated 11/22/05 9:06:46 AM, slitterst [at] ithaca.edu writes: << The problem with this is that there is no record of the saying previous to 1966. >> really ? geee, , , , , I was 13 in 66, , and although I do not have any specific memory of the phrase, it doesn't seem like a phrase I have only heard since that time, , , seems like a phrase that has been with me for ever, so I will definately want to look at the linkls memtioned, thanks Steve very best, Keith Arsenault IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:25:20 -0500 From: Stephen Litterst Subject: Re: Got your 6 - Whole Nine Yards In-reply-to: Message-id: <43832A50.6040409 [at] ithaca.edu> Organization: IC-Dept. of Theatre Arts References: IAEG [at] aol.com wrote: > --------------------------------------------------- > > > In a message dated 11/22/05 9:06:46 AM, slitterst [at] ithaca.edu writes: > > << The problem with this is that there is no record of the saying > > previous to 1966. >> > > really ? > > geee, , , , , I was 13 in 66, , and although I do not have any specific > memory of the phrase, it doesn't seem like a phrase I have only heard since that > time, , , seems like a phrase that has been with me for ever, Hey, it's on the internet, it must be true! Five minutes of research shows that there are scads of anecdotal evidence of the saying previous to the 60s, but no written evidence. Doesn't mean you weren't saying it as a kid, just that there's no credible proof. (Not that I'm saying you're not credible -- it's the etymologists who say that. :)) Steve L. -- Stephen C. Litterst Technical Supervisor Ithaca College Dept. of Theatre Arts 607/274-3947 slitterst [at] ithaca.edu ------------------------------ From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: <21c.374868a.30b48664 [at] aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:34:12 EST Subject: Re: Got your 6 - Whole Nine Yards In a message dated 11/22/05 9:26:11 AM, slitterst [at] ithaca.edu writes: << Doesn't mean you weren't saying it as a kid, just that there's no credible proof. (Not that I'm saying you're not credible -- it's the etymologists who say that. :)) >> damn those etymologists ! ! ! (maybe because I grew up in an Air Force town ? ) very best, Keith Arsenault IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida www.iaeginc.com www.circusnexus.org ------------------------------ Subject: Portable Seating Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:40:18 -0600 Message-ID: <28D62335F7D5D44C8C47692CF001DF5E04E4B176 [at] EMPMAIL.ad.csbsju.edu> From: "Dempsey, John" Here at the College of St. Benedict we are in the midst of adding on to our Arts Center. The addition includes a Black Box Theater, Music Rehearsal Hall and Dance Studio. My question concerns seating in the Black Box. I've got the platforming under control, but am having a tough time coming up with portable seating options. I want a comfortable, upholstered, folding type chair that is not going to break the bank. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Jack Dempsey, Production Manager=20 Fine Arts Programming/Theater College of St. Benedict / St. John's University 37 S. College Ave.=20 St. Joseph, MN 56374=20 320-363-5905 - office=20 320-363-6097 - fax St. Cloud Steward I.A.T.S.E. Local #13 Stagehands=20 ------------------------------ Message-ID: <003c01c5ef73$90dd31e0$6401a8c0 [at] BCA1> Reply-To: "Bill Conner" From: "Bill Conner" Subject: RE: Certification info. Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:46:44 -0600 In response to a few posts, my understanding is if you apply and are not accepted, as in your experience is deemed not sufficient, you loose $200. From the handbook "If your application is rejected for any reason, including, without limitation, incomplete, inaccurate or unverifiable information then your application fee, less a $200 administration fee, will be refunded." Life is tough. I'm sure this is similar to other certification programs. Probably best to not apply on a whim. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:48:10 -0500 From: Stephen Litterst Subject: Re: Portable Seating In-reply-to: Message-id: <43832FAA.6030803 [at] ithaca.edu> Organization: IC-Dept. of Theatre Arts References: Dempsey, John wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Here at the College of St. Benedict we are in the midst of adding on to > our Arts Center. The addition includes a Black Box Theater, Music > Rehearsal Hall and Dance Studio. My question concerns seating in the > Black Box. I've got the platforming under control, but am having a > tough time coming up with portable seating options. I want a > comfortable, upholstered, folding type chair that is not going to break > the bank. Any help would be greatly appreciated. We re-did our arena theatre a few years ago and purchased chairs from Clarin after auditioning several brands. Well padded seats, and the angle and height of the back is quite comfortable. Steve l. -- Stephen C. Litterst Technical Supervisor Ithaca College Dept. of Theatre Arts 607/274-3947 slitterst [at] ithaca.edu ------------------------------ Message-ID: <004401c5ef75$80ac1320$6401a8c0 [at] BCA1> Reply-To: "Bill Conner" From: "Bill Conner" Subject: Re: Rigging Certification Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:00:35 -0600 "Oh an by the way. Just a small note of very deep appreciation to the 200 or so people that did take the test. It took guts to be the first. It took a lot of courage to walk into that room and let yourself be seen by your peers. You could have waited to do the computer test in anonymity, but you didn't. I was humbled by your unselfishness and extremely grateful you were willing to take the chance with us." Well thanks Bill S. What a nice way of saying fools rushed in .... Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:07:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Portable Seating From: Steve Larson Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Irwin seating has a telescoping system where 218 seats on four units will cost about $100K. The telescope back into storage 3.5' deep. Steve > From: "Dempsey, John" > Reply-To: "Stagecraft" > Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:40:18 -0600 > To: "Stagecraft" > Subject: Portable Seating > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Here at the College of St. Benedict we are in the midst of adding on to > our Arts Center. The addition includes a Black Box Theater, Music > Rehearsal Hall and Dance Studio. My question concerns seating in the > Black Box. I've got the platforming under control, but am having a > tough time coming up with portable seating options. I want a > comfortable, upholstered, folding type chair that is not going to break > the bank. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Jack Dempsey, Production Manager > Fine Arts Programming/Theater > College of St. Benedict / St. John's University > 37 S. College Ave. > St. Joseph, MN 56374 > 320-363-5905 - office > 320-363-6097 - fax > St. Cloud Steward > I.A.T.S.E. Local #13 > Stagehands > ------------------------------ Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:12:44 -0500 From: "richard j. archer" Subject: Re: Portable Seating >For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see >--------------------------------------------------- > >Dempsey, John wrote: >>For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see >>--------------------------------------------------- >> >>Here at the College of St. Benedict we are in the midst of adding on to >>our Arts Center. The addition includes a Black Box Theater, Music >>Rehearsal Hall and Dance Studio. My question concerns seating in the >>Black Box. I've got the platforming under control, but am having a >>tough time coming up with portable seating options. I want a >>comfortable, upholstered, folding type chair that is not going to break >>the bank. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > >We re-did our arena theatre a few years ago and purchased chairs >from Clarin after auditioning several brands. Well padded seats, >and the angle and height of the back is quite comfortable. > >Steve l. >-- >Stephen C. Litterst >Technical Supervisor >Ithaca College >Dept. of Theatre Arts >607/274-3947 >slitterst [at] ithaca.edu Over at Ithaca's other college we too have Clarin portable chairs. We've had ours since before I got here and I arrived in 1979. Indestructible. (well, we have broke a few) Dick A TD, Cornell U ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: DMX termination Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:27:34 -0800 On Nov 21, 2005, at 10:38 PM, James Feinberg wrote: > I am attempting to build a DMX terminator. My research has lead me > to believe I need a 1W 120 ohm resistor. I have at my disposal a > 1W 150 ohm resistor and an 0.25W 120 ohm resistor. So now I ask > those far wiser than I, which resistor should I use? 1/4W is fine. The max voltage across the resistor is 5V (assuming the cable isn't plugged into power by mistake). power = volts * volts / resistance = 5 * 5 / 120 = 0.208W ------------------------------ From: MissWisc [at] aol.com Message-ID: <29.7fb5b3e2.30b495a8 [at] aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:39:20 EST Subject: Re: Rigging Certification bill [at] sapsis-rigging.com writes: << Page 26 of the ever popular, but still unread, it seems, Candidate Handbook. >> We read it, Unkle Bill, and interpreted it differently. That's why we're asking. Seems I'm not the only one who thought that I couldn't qualify only to find out that I might. We thank you and Peter and the rest of the SME's for clarifying, referring, and being the proud Poppas (and momma's) that you should be. Seems everyone agrees it's a great idea, just want to know more about it. If someone thought they couldn't qualify, reads the discussion we've had the past two days, decides to try it and passes - we ALL benefit. Kristi ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Cc: bill [at] bcaworld.com ('Bill Conner') Subject: RE: Rigging Certification Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:42:59 -0500 Message-ID: <001401c5ef7b$6df38960$6601a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: On behalf of every non-rigger who has to walk under the various objects dangling overhead, thanks, folks, for doing this. ------------------------------ Message-ID: <000d01c5ef7d$99fb9780$0600000a [at] BRUTUS> From: "Jon Ares" References:

Subject: Re: Got your 6 - Whole Nine Yards Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 07:58:38 -0800 > Other possibilities are the cement industry (capacity of a mixer), > textiles (amount of cloth on a bolt of fabric), and sailing (number of > sails). Yeah, I understood it to come from the bolt of fabric thing.... - Jon Ares www.hevanet.com/acreative ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20051122161318.57960.qmail [at] web50601.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:13:18 -0800 (PST) From: b Ricie Subject: Rigging certification In-Reply-To: I agree the certification is a good and needed thing. My worry is employers will want to make it a standard. I have read time and time again that if you pass you will be in the top 1/3 of the profession. You can see the math start to add up. The top 1/3 ain't exactly standard. If the time comes when venues only allow certified riggers to do all the rigging(running fly system, changing weight, simple things) it is then I will change my tune. Unka Bill et all, thank you and congratulations on completing a very large step one. But, as CB said I don't think the job is quite finished. I say this not as a demand on you for more,but in response to a lot of questions and concerns I see. I went to the ESTA page, do I have the points to take the test? I think so. There it is again "I THINK so". So it seems there is clarification needed as to who is qualified to take the exam. A bit more clarification I am sure will lead to more test takers which will lead to more money to pay more bills. My next concern is what is the purpose of certification. I think this needs VERY CLEAR DEFINITION. As we have read venues are already calling for only certified riggers to be on the calls. This all before the first test was given. If certification is to make sure that only certified riggers rig, then there will be a bunch of un-happy out of work used to be OK but now worthless riggers out there. This information is necessary. if it is to be so, we need to know so those of us who still want to rig can bone up and take the test. If not, verbiage needs to be put into place to protect the standing of the non-certified rigger. As been said before, " it is better WE do this now then wait for some government agency to do it." Agreed. So, let's do it all the way. Part one seems to have been successful. For part two I would suggest WE, define EXACTLY what the roll of the certified rigger is, rather than waiting for some Government agency to do so. Brian Rice 508-685-0716 b_ricie [at] yahoo.com "Blessed are the cracked: For it is they who let in the light." __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "JUSTIN DAVID BENNETT" Subject: RE: Portable Seating Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:28:18 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would also suggest Clarin. I have two types of chairs: the "ugly ones" and the "good ones." The ugly ones are Wenger (I think) and are actually newer than the Clarin (Good) chairs. Clarins are stamped '85, and of the 60 or so I have in stock, 2 have lost the pad on the back, but are still perfectly functional. One seat pad per decade is a perfectly acceptable failure rate in my book. Justin Bennett Technical Director / Theatre Manager St. Philip's College - Watson Fine Arts Center jbennett43 [at] mail.accd.edu (210) 531-4706 Office (210) 531-4768 Fax -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Dempsey, John My question concerns seating in the Black Box. I've got the platforming under control, but am having a tough time coming up with portable seating options. I want a comfortable, upholstered, folding type chair that is not going to break the bank. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:38:39 -0500 From: Stephen Litterst Subject: Certification expanded Message-id: <4383498F.5060307 [at] ithaca.edu> Organization: IC-Dept. of Theatre Arts Ok, good discussion about what certification means to our industry and how it can/should/might be applied. Thanks again to all on and off list who gave of their time and knowledge to develop this program. Moving forward, the electrical certification is currently in the works. This is going to be just as dicey as the rigging cert, I believe, because there are so many more levels of electrical work in our industry, and because the top tier is so much fuzzier. Who's the Uncle Bill of the electrical world? We all know who to call with rigging questions and to bring in an expert when we're beyond our comfort level, but who do we call for electrical questions? Is there anyone who offers safety seminars on electricity? When we talk about the Rigging ETCP being targeted at the top 1/3 I have a pretty good idea of who that is. (not me) But who is the top tier of the electricians? For what tasks would I be hired as a certified electrician? (assuming I qualify for the test). Now would be the time to bat these questions around and hit a few of the answers towards the Electrical Skills Working Group and the newly appointed SMEs. Before it's after the test and we're asking the same questions. Steve L. -- Stephen C. Litterst Technical Supervisor Ithaca College Dept. of Theatre Arts 607/274-3947 slitterst [at] ithaca.edu ------------------------------ Message-Id: <68B23DBE-EE22-4524-922A-E15DE7A1418B [at] interstellar.com> From: Jerry Durand Subject: Christmas lights Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 09:00:38 -0800 Wow, this seems to be a popular video, giving my server a real workout. No harm done, but some people may notice a slower than usual response. Enjoy. -- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. Los Gatos, California, USA www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <0E0CDE94AC5F92428C823684D00244E602038E6B [at] exchange10.mercury.ad.ubc.ca> From: "Riter, Andrew (Head Ltg)" Subject: RE: Andrew's POV on Rigging Cert (was Kristi's thread) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 10:30:56 -0800 > From: Bill Sapsis > > I don't really know what else to say. I hear your concerns and I > appreciate > that you have your own POV. But the horse is out of the barn. The program > is here to stay and I'm very proud of it. > And I want the horse out of the Barn. I'm thankful and appreciate the time you (the plural, to include everyone) spent on this massive project. I take your point about full time designers. I'm looking at more this way, then: All designers rig, not all riggers design (with pen and paper, doing the vectors, calculating loads etcs.) > Riggers design and riggers rig. And riggers are constantly going into > buildings that present oddball situations that require serious > calculations > and a very high level of understanding of things like math and physics. > Your example of the Atlantic City failure is *exactly* why we need > certification for riggers. Had the head rigger on that tour been >certified and had the venue had one person on their staff who was >certified, then the chances of that accident happening would have been all >but eliminated. > > > Andrew, other than your gut feelings about rigging and designers and > stuff, > from where are you drawing your information? We did not simply make up > this > test one day and foist it on the industry. We spent years (about 5) > working > on it, conducting surveys, review data asking questions, . . . I know, I filled out one of the surveys. > > I've said it before but it bears repeating. This certification is exactly > what this industry desperately needs. We need to be able to trust the rig I agree. > And a very important by-product of Certification is better training. This > program will spawn more training programs, not just for top tier riggers, > but also for entry and mid level people. Good. I don't see riggers design. I see a show come off a truck, the Show Head Rigger chalk out point on the arena's floor (locations designed elsewhere, for loads designed previously). I see the local riggers climb up, and drop a rope down. I see the local ground rigger assemble the basket and/or bridal needed to get the chain over the chalk mark. (OK there is some design here, to ensure the bridal legs are not too short, but none of the local riggers knows the weight of the load on that point, or what the stresses will be on the leg if they install two 20' legs or two 5' legs.) I see the chain get pulled, and the basket made, and the chain motor run up, and load attached, and the truss/speaker cluster flown out. Where in this process is the act of design? It's all been done previously, with a rigger working with set/sound/lighting designers. I assume, as a local day hire, that the show crew has a file with each point, load type, weight, ratings, etc. Does this information (that the DS Truss points are at 80% capacity, so the bridal legs need to longer, so to reduce the side-to-side pull of the bridal, that the Mid stage traveler line is at 20% of capacity) ever get passed onto the local crew? Please let me know how the rock n' roll world works. I know that the convention industry (being more of a one-off type) is different again, and the theatre world is a third fruit (apple, orange, mango?) That was more my point. I agree that the certification process is necessary, and step up, and wonderful. I can't say that I know it address all issues of knowledge and how the industry works. (I'm not saying it doesn't, I JUST DON"T KNOW) Back to Atlantic City, The show rigger knew the weight of the points needed to hang his rig (assumptions are made as to sex and knowledge). Did the show rigger or show TD pass this along to the House TD prior to arrival, and ask "Can your rig support mine?" Did the local Head Rigger Day Hire look at it and think "It's massive, but I don't how much it weighs, but the points look fine, and someone else must have run the numbers that we can support his beheamoth, so we're OK") Based on what I've assumed above, the certification process would help the Tour Rigger know how much was on each point. But beyond that, it comes to the people involved to ensure that the information gets passed along, and approved, and stamped, and certified, that the building can support the tour. I don't want to, don't mean to, don't intend to knock the certification process, or the goals. Like I said, the govt has certified theatre electricians here. Would we have been better off if we had an ESTA-type process instead of the govt one? Probably. But as Kristi pointed out, not everyone who rigs will ever have a hope in H-E-double-hockey-sticks of meeting the pre-requisites. Thanks for your work on this project. Probably in the next few months, you can stop attending meetings, answering emails, and worrying about this baby. Andrew M. Riter Head Lighting Technician Chan Centre, UBC 604-822-2372 *********************** You understand, we are tied down to a language which makes up in obscurity what it lacks in style. Stoppard, R&G are Dead ************************ ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4383675A.5060604 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:45:46 -0500 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: Andrew's POV on Rigging Cert (was Kristi's thread) References: In-Reply-To: Riter, Andrew (Head Ltg) wrote: Sorry, I just have to jump in here - this has been bugging me since the thread started: > chalk mark. (OK there is some design here, to ensure the bridal legs > are not too short bridal: of or relating to a bride or wedding ceremony bridle: a span of chain, wire or rope that can be secured at both ends to an object and slung from its center point. (www.dictionary.com) (now re-read the quoted sentence - lends a whole new perspective, don't it? :-) -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Rigging Certification Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:09:59 -0800 Message-ID: From: "Michael Finney" On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 Bill Sapsis < It's a start. And, as far as I know, my next job at ESTA.>> ...and please notice the other tab on the page - the one that says "volunteers needed": http://www.estafoundation.org/eset/volunteers.htm A big tip of the hat to Bill for the outstanding job he's done of explaining the Certification Program and answering questions about it (yep, many of which are in the handy and much beloved Handbook)(Bill - I apologize for not weighing in earlier - I can't post remotely right now, so I've been watching this from the edges). =20 As Bill said, a bunch of people were (and continue to be) involved in this process - individuals, representatives of employers, employees, trade associations, educational associations, unions (at both the local and national levels), etc. etc. And, interestingly enough, a lot (OK - *all*) of the questions that have been raised in this forum were *also* raised (and endlessly debated) in the process of developing the first of what I hope to be a number of Certifications for our industry. And, to my immense admiration, this group was smart enough to reach out to people who design and administer tests for a living. All in the interest of making the process as fair, objective, and effective as possible. To top it all off, this groups was then smart enough to not just set the first one aside and say "ok, *that's* done*. Nope, ESTA has left the structures in place to continue to develop new programs, and to review/administer existing programs. As Bill has said - that ain't cheap, and it means a continued commitment from the people involved (a commitment of both time and money - many of the folks involved go out of their own pockets to travel to meetings). =20 Where am I going with all of that? Folks, this didn't happen in a vacuum - and the process continues in a lot of different ways. Soooo - there are some people on this list who obviously have the skills (and opinions!) to participate in the process...and I'd sure encourage you to *not* sit on the sidelines. If you're concerned, please get involved! Check out that web site (http://www.estafoundation.org/eset/volunteers.htm), and volunteer. If not with ESTA, then with USITT or somebody else. And, when ESTA (or USITT, or anybody else) announces that there are draft documents posted for comments...take some time, check out the document, and *comment*. This all works a lot better if you're involved. And (trust me) - it's definitely worth your time...the rewards are worth every bit of the effort. ..Now, Bill - all we have to do is convince the Essential Skills Working Group to stop scheduling meetings at the same time as Council meetings....but that's a whole *'nother* kettle of fish... =20 Michael Finney Thinkwell Design & Production mfinney [at] thinkwelldesign.com www.thinkwelldesign.com=20 ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20051122123137.00ceabf8 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:31:37 From: CB Subject: Choreographed Light Display >My wife has now decided our house must >look like this, as if Christmas is not busy enough. > >http://members.cox.net/transam57/lights.wmv >(TSO as accompaniment) Shoulda guessed it was the Tucson Synphony Orchestra. Where else could you put up that kinda light show and not worry about snow? (Or the neighbors getting upset based on taste?) Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20051122123837.00ceabf8 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:38:37 From: CB Subject: Re: Choreographed Light Display >Windows Media is so bad it just stutters along. Cheez, Mac guys! Now he knows how I feel about yesterday's Quicktime file. Herrick, if you haven't got it solved by now, let me kow, I DL'd it and can try to convert it to something that'll make you happier. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:48:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Charlie Richmond Subject: Re: Choreographed Light Display In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: On Tue, 22 Nov 2005, CB wrote: >> (TSO as accompaniment) Means Trans Siberian Orchestra in this case ;-) Charlie ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20051122124344.00ceabf8 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:43:44 From: CB Subject: Re: Choreographed Light Display >The audio was obviously dubbed - it's just too good a quality to have >been recorded live. But that could have been done simply to provide a >better quality sound track (it happens all the time in movies). I'm not sure what yo mean by 'dubbed', but it could be that the same source that is triggering the moves (i.e., a keyboard outputting midi) is being recorded from the console to the camcorder. In this case, the whole thing could be being played live, and the recording could be of the actual live mix. OTOH, if you meant that it wasn't being recorded from the camcorder's onboard mic, I concur. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:04:04 -0500 From: Jonathan Wills Subject: Re: Choreographed Light Display In-Reply-To: References: Well another Forum I am on has highly speculated that this comapny made the control device. Looking at some of the products it may be these guys, may be able to be done easier than most of use think. http://www.animatedlighting.com/ Jonathan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:09:27 +0000 (GMT) From: Charlie Richmond Subject: Re: Choreographed Light Display In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References:

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005, Jonathan Wills wrote: > Well another Forum I am on has highly speculated that this comapny > made the control device. Looking at some of the products it may be > these guys, may be able to be done easier than most of use think. It can easily be done by 100s if not 1000s of different types of systems. Many low cost options are equally likely. Wanting to do more that this narrows the field down a bit ;-) Charlie | Charlie Richmond - Richmond Sound Design - Skype: charlierichmond | | http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com "Performance for the Long Run" | | Show Control List: http://www.RichmondSoundDesign.com/sclist.html | ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20051122130940.00ceabf8 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:09:40 From: CB Subject: In reference to Rigging Certification. >The "training program" for riggers at the building, I work most often, >differentiates between "Riggers" and "Climbers." In sound it goes: Sound Engineer Sound Guy Slider Rider Girlfriend Guitartist Drummer Mime Depending on abilities. A 'Sound Engineer' can take a stack of gear, figure out what is useful, what isn't, put it all together in order, and make the band/show sound good. He knows what is happening at all points in the signal path, downto a component level. A 'Sound Guy' can take a package that has been pre-designed, put it together, and make the band/show sound good. He knows what each box does, and knows the signal path from box to box. A 'Slider Rider' can mix, but isn't always up on signal flow, doesn't know what everything does, and can't put a system together, but knows what sounds good and is familiar with all of the knobs and most of their uses. A 'Girlfriend' is someone that can watch the console while you 'check the plumbing' or go re-orient one of the drum mikes. Note that a 'Girlfriend' can be of either sex, and the person's actual relation to you is of no consequence. A 'Guitarist' is usually just that. He has an ear for music, and understands that knobs change the sound, and can be used as a last resort. The mix will probably be too loud, and string oriented. A 'Drummer' is someone that you put in front of the console when the client tries to save money by ripping off the sound provider. This person doesn't actually have to know how to play drums, just have the whole 'survive by hitting things' mentality. 'Mime'. Never use for sound. Ever. Except, maybe as a fuse. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20051122131619.00ceabf8 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 13:16:19 From: CB Subject: DMX termination > I have at my disposal a 1W 150 >ohm resistor and an 0.25W 120 ohm resistor. So now I ask those far >wiser than I, which resistor should I use? A pair of the quarter watt in parrallel, or go to the electronics store and get the half W 120 Ohm. Since they are so danged cheap, and you went all that way to get it, you might as well spend the extra buck on a pack of five +/- 1%'ers, too! Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "RD" Subject: RE: Certification expanded Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 14:13:05 -0700 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard D. Thompson, Ken Vannice, Mitch Hefter. These are the gurus. I began, with them, the original workshops for electrical safety and worked with the Canadians on their certification, over a period of years, just as I did with the Rigging expertise. I am pleased that this is moving forward. Dr. Doom -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Litterst Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 9:39 AM To: Stagecraft Subject: Certification expanded For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Ok, good discussion about what certification means to our industry and how it can/should/might be applied. Thanks again to all on and off list who gave of their time and knowledge to develop this program. Moving forward, the electrical certification is currently in the works. This is going to be just as dicey as the rigging cert, I believe, because there are so many more levels of electrical work in our industry, and because the top tier is so much fuzzier. Who's the Uncle Bill of the electrical world? We all know who to call with rigging questions and to bring in an expert when we're beyond our comfort level, but who do we call for electrical questions? Is there anyone who offers safety seminars on electricity? When we talk about the Rigging ETCP being targeted at the top 1/3 I have a pretty good idea of who that is. (not me) But who is the top tier of the electricians? For what tasks would I be hired as a certified electrician? (assuming I qualify for the test). Now would be the time to bat these questions around and hit a few of the answers towards the Electrical Skills Working Group and the newly appointed SMEs. Before it's after the test and we're asking the same questions. Steve L. -- Stephen C. Litterst Technical Supervisor Ithaca College Dept. of Theatre Arts 607/274-3947 slitterst [at] ithaca.edu ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20051122142237.03c95658 [at] 192.168.0.13> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 14:27:48 -0800 From: Jerry Durand Subject: USB to RS-232/485 board We haven't put this on our web page yet, but I've just finished testing our DILI-2 USB to RS-232/485 board. This is the same size as the other DILI boards, intended for permanent installation in single gang wall boxes, etc. It uses standard drivers, so will work on Windows, Mac, or Linux and appear as a normal serial port. It can be used to talk to any of our devices or anything else you might need. If anyone would like more info, contact me off line. I'm tied up with a couple of wireless projects and don't know when I'll get this on the web page. -- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:26:58 -0500 From: Greg Williams Subject: Re: Andrew's POV on Rigging Cert (was Kristi's thread) In-reply-to: Message-id: <5BB4679D-CDB1-48A9-8B35-43FB04EC8120 [at] appstate.edu> References:

On Nov 22, 2005, at 1:45 PM, Jim Hyslop wrote: > Riter, Andrew (Head Ltg) wrote: > > Sorry, I just have to jump in here - this has been bugging me since > the > thread started: > >> chalk mark. (OK there is some design here, to ensure the bridal legs >> are not too short > > bridal: of or relating to a bride or wedding ceremony > > bridle: a span of chain, wire or rope that can be secured at both ends > to an object and slung from its center point. > > (www.dictionary.com) > > (now re-read the quoted sentence - lends a whole new perspective, > don't > it? :-) Yes, Jim, it does. I had the same thought. In fact, if you read another quoted phrase: "so the bridal legs need to longer, so to reduce the side-to-side pull of the bridal", we just _might_ have a way to lower the divorce rate! With apologies to Andrew, of course! -=Greg Williams=- Production Manager Valborg Theatre, Appalachian State University www.LRLR.org - 2006 ride dates July 9-18 - c'mon and join us! ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20051122151746.03c756c0 [at] 192.168.0.13> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:20:01 -0800 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Covad down Our DSL connection is partially down, I seem to be able to send mail, but nothing comes in and we can't browse the web. Our server says it can't contact our DNS server. So, looks like we'll be off the air for a while, tech support says "sorry, no estimate of the time to fix it, lots of areas of California are down". If you need to contact me, call (glad we're not using VoIP/Skype). -- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:27:20 +0000 (GMT) From: Charlie Richmond Subject: Re: What kind of system can do this? (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:23:30 -0000 From: David Buckley To: Show-Control [at] yahoogroups.com Subject: [Show-Control] Re: What kind of system can do this? --- In Show-Control [at] yahoogroups.com, "beardedbil22" wrote: > > Curious what kind of system could accomplish this for christmas > lighting? That video is doing the rounds. The answer is http://www.lightorama.com/ There is a whole bunch of folk with time on their hands that do fancy things for christmas, ands the one in the video represents a shedload of programming with 88 channels of control, more info from http://cr.planetchristmas.com/default.asp?action=9&fid=83&read=10130 Have a read of that forum for some "light" entertainment, and find out about the "400 amp club" :-) ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <84.521f08bc.30b50d0e [at] aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:08:46 EST Subject: Re: Andrew's POV on Rigging Cert (was Kristi's thread) In a message dated 22/11/05 18:31:52 GMT Standard Time, chanlights [at] exchange.ubc.ca writes: > Does > this information (that the DS Truss points are at 80% capacity, so the > bridal legs need to longer, so to reduce the side-to-side pull of the bridal, > that the Mid stage traveler line is at 20% of capacity) ever get passed onto > the local crew? All this should have been solved at the design stage. Stage plans and vertical sections are needed then, not at the time of rigging. Bridles induce compressive stresses in a truss, in proportion to the tangent of half the angle at the apex, and in the components of the bridle as well, as tensions. The directions of the loads need to be considered. These can be well over the suspended load. I was taught at school how to work all these out, but have not had to do it, although I think that I can remember how. The point is to be aware of what is going on in the structure, even if you have forgotten your mathematics. As soon as the structure is off the ground and hanging free, stop, and look at it. An experienced eye will tell you when there is something wrong with the rig, even if all its components are rated. The load distribution on the truss needs consideration, as well, together with any dynamic loads other than up and down. All in all, this is why you need an expert to design the installation for each and every house. What you did last night may not be what you need tonight. Frank Wood ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <84.521f08e0.30b5141f [at] aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:38:55 EST Subject: Re: Choreographed Light Display In a message dated 22/11/05 20:10:37 GMT Standard Time, charlier [at] RichmondSoundDesign.com writes: > > Well another Forum I am on has highly speculated that this comapny > > made the control device. Looking at some of the products it may be > > these guys, may be able to be done easier than most of use think. I find it interesting that there has been no comment on the aesthetic aspects of this. Can it really be that we are all so obsessed with the HOW that we ignore the WHY? Frank Wood ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <1e9.479efd39.30b5165f [at] aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:48:31 EST Subject: Re: DMX termination In a message dated 22/11/05 20:22:58 GMT Standard Time, psyd [at] cox.net writes: > A pair of the quarter watt in parrallel, or go to the electronics store > and get the half W 120 Ohm. Wrong. Two 120 ohm resistors in parallel is 60 ohm. |But, as has already been said, the possible power dissipation in a DMX termination is not a lot. The protocol sends 5V signals, and the terminator is specified at 120 ohm. You do the sums. 0.25W resistors are entirely adequate, even before you take diversity into account. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.3.4.0.20051122165145.03c6cc00 [at] 192.168.0.13> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:53:04 -0800 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: DMX termination In-Reply-To: References: At 04:48 PM 11/22/2005, you wrote: >But, as has already been said, the possible power dissipation in a DMX >termination is not a lot. The protocol sends 5V signals, and the >terminator is >specified at 120 ohm. You do the sums. 0.25W resistors are entirely >adequate, even >before you take diversity into account. Depends, the new ANSI DMX spec does suggest you be able to withstand mis-plugging without damage. This entails high-wattage resistors and isolated inputs. -- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <02c101c5efcb$bd56a960$e28aaa43 [at] DonTaco> From: "Don Taco" References: Subject: Re: Choreographed Light Display Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:17:57 -0800 >> > Well another Forum I am on has highly speculated that this comapny >> > made the control device. Looking at some of the products it may be >> > these guys, may be able to be done easier than most of use think. > > I find it interesting that there has been no comment on the aesthetic > aspects > of this. Can it really be that we are all so obsessed with the HOW that we > ignore the WHY? > > > Frank Wood > Oohh, ooh!! I know! I got this one! It's because every single one of us is thinking, 'I could do that better.' ------------------------------ Message-ID: <90b4c67a0511221719i3bd07ce8s3992ccffeafb8642 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:19:41 -0800 From: Mike McElroy Subject: The problem at hand Hi everyone! I hope y'all can help me out with this before I get too far in over my head. My community theatre is doing Titanic in a few months, and I've volunteered to do the set design. I want to install a minor hydraulic system to provide a visible "slanting" effect for the next to last scene. The rest of the sinking effect is provided by static tilted scenery. The power generation side of the system would be set up outside the theatre and sound dampened, with hoses running to the control and actuating side, inside a 6' deep x 12' wide x 4' tall wagon representing the 1st Class Smoke Room ("The Wagon"). Now, I have the following concept for the structure of the Wagon: 6x12 deck on top, 5 or 6" tall steel frame providing underflooring. (That is to say, two 6x12 frames with cross-beams sandwiching some small steel beams to separate the frames and distribute point loads better) The frame would hinge to the actual wagon on a 6' side. When lowered, the deck fits (approximately) perfectly on the wagon so no hydraulic pressure is necessary. The steel underflooring would be attached to two hydraulic cylinders at about 4-5' away from the hinge (that's just shy of halfway along the deck length) which would rotate the deck along the hinge and lift deck, scenery and actor (only one) to an angle of around 35, maybe 40 degrees. I've crunched numbers on all this, and I think it can work. My question is, do you? My preliminary budgetting and price checking have said I can build this hydraulic system for less than $1500. Does anyone have any better ideas? Lifting one side of the deck with pulleys & mechanical advantage has been suggested already, but I've dismissed it as demolishing any scenic illusion. Pneumatics have been dismissed for being loud and not easily controlled. I'd use a flame-retardant hydraulic oil. If I'm missing anything I should be describing, please let me know.=20 This is a big deal to me, and I want it to look as if the ship is actively tilting during this scene. Does anyone have any better/cheaper/faster/easier ideas? -MikeMac ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:27:48 -0500 Subject: Re: The problem at hand From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Hi Mike. The concept seems basically sound. I like it all except for the hydraulics. If something goes wrong they tend to be a bit...messy. Have you thought about a linear actuator for this effect? I bet you can get one that will do a 3' throw for about $500-$700. With the rest of the rigging it might come in a bit under the $1,500. Just a thought. Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Join the Long Reach Long Riders on their 3rd annual cross country charity motorcycle ride. On 11/22/05 8:19 PM, "Mike McElroy" wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Hi everyone! > > I hope y'all can help me out with this before I get too far in over my > head. My community theatre is doing Titanic in a few months, and I've > volunteered to do the set design. I want to install a minor hydraulic > system to provide a visible "slanting" effect for the next to last > scene. The rest of the sinking effect is provided by static tilted > scenery. The power generation side of the system would be set up > outside the theatre and sound dampened, with hoses running to the > control and actuating side, inside a 6' deep x 12' wide x 4' tall > wagon representing the 1st Class Smoke Room ("The Wagon"). Now, I > have the following concept for the structure of the Wagon: > > 6x12 deck on top, 5 or 6" tall steel frame providing underflooring. > (That is to say, two 6x12 frames with cross-beams sandwiching some > small steel beams to separate the frames and distribute point loads > better) > > The frame would hinge to the actual wagon on a 6' side. When lowered, > the deck fits (approximately) perfectly on the wagon so no hydraulic > pressure is necessary. > > The steel underflooring would be attached to two hydraulic cylinders > at about 4-5' away from the hinge (that's just shy of halfway along > the deck length) which would rotate the deck along the hinge and lift > deck, scenery and actor (only one) to an angle of around 35, maybe 40 > degrees. I've crunched numbers on all this, and I think it can work. > > My question is, do you? My preliminary budgetting and price checking > have said I can build this hydraulic system for less than $1500. Does > anyone have any better ideas? Lifting one side of the deck with > pulleys & mechanical advantage has been suggested already, but I've > dismissed it as demolishing any scenic illusion. Pneumatics have been > dismissed for being loud and not easily controlled. I'd use a > flame-retardant hydraulic oil. > > If I'm missing anything I should be describing, please let me know. > This is a big deal to me, and I want it to look as if the ship is > actively tilting during this scene. Does anyone have any > better/cheaper/faster/easier ideas? > > -MikeMac ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4383CF59.BE1D6F87 [at] cybercom.net> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:09:29 -0500 From: Dale Farmer Organization: The fuzz in the back of the fridge. Subject: Re: The problem at hand References: Mike McElroy wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Hi everyone! > > I hope y'all can help me out with this before I get too far in over my > head. My community theatre is doing Titanic in a few months, and I've > volunteered to do the set design. I want to install a minor hydraulic > system to provide a visible "slanting" effect for the next to last > scene. The rest of the sinking effect is provided by static tilted > scenery. The power generation side of the system would be set up > outside the theatre and sound dampened, with hoses running to the > control and actuating side, inside a 6' deep x 12' wide x 4' tall > wagon representing the 1st Class Smoke Room ("The Wagon"). Now, I > have the following concept for the structure of the Wagon: > > 6x12 deck on top, 5 or 6" tall steel frame providing underflooring. > (That is to say, two 6x12 frames with cross-beams sandwiching some > small steel beams to separate the frames and distribute point loads > better) > > The frame would hinge to the actual wagon on a 6' side. When lowered, > the deck fits (approximately) perfectly on the wagon so no hydraulic > pressure is necessary. > > The steel underflooring would be attached to two hydraulic cylinders > at about 4-5' away from the hinge (that's just shy of halfway along > the deck length) which would rotate the deck along the hinge and lift > deck, scenery and actor (only one) to an angle of around 35, maybe 40 > degrees. I've crunched numbers on all this, and I think it can work. > > My question is, do you? My preliminary budgetting and price checking > have said I can build this hydraulic system for less than $1500. Does > anyone have any better ideas? Lifting one side of the deck with > pulleys & mechanical advantage has been suggested already, but I've > dismissed it as demolishing any scenic illusion. Pneumatics have been > dismissed for being loud and not easily controlled. I'd use a > flame-retardant hydraulic oil. > > If I'm missing anything I should be describing, please let me know. > This is a big deal to me, and I want it to look as if the ship is > actively tilting during this scene. Does anyone have any > better/cheaper/faster/easier ideas? > > -MikeMac Pneumatics would be safer and less potentially messy. You control the noise of pneumatics by putting the valves and restrictors outside next to your compressor, and running larger air hoses to the set piece. The only drawback is that they are bouncy. The other thing you may try is a worm gear scissors lift with a small electric motor that is geared down to turn it. Very quiet, very controllable, and you just need a reversible electric motor and a controller. Worm gear is also good if you are looking for a slower motion and fine control of position. Do install some limit switches/valves so you don't break things if you have a stuck control, and a lockout switch for safety. --Dale ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4383D299.4080402 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:23:21 -0500 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: Choreographed Light Display References: In-Reply-To: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com wrote: > I find it interesting that there has been no comment on the aesthetic aspects > of this. Can it really be that we are all so obsessed with the HOW that we > ignore the WHY? I figured that was so obviously bad and wrong that it hardly bore mentioning. You may recall my earlier response was "ohhh... my... gawd" :=) -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4383D415.9080806 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:29:41 -0500 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: Choreographed Light Display References:

In-Reply-To: I wrote: > FrankWood95 [at] aol.com wrote: > >>I find it interesting that there has been no comment on the aesthetic aspects >>of this. Can it really be that we are all so obsessed with the HOW that we >>ignore the WHY? > > > I figured that was so obviously bad and wrong that it hardly bore > mentioning. You may recall my earlier response was "ohhh... my... gawd" :=) > Clarification; I figured the display was so obviously bad and wrong (just in case anyone thought I meant your message was wrong ;=). -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4383D76E.3030603 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:43:58 -0500 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: Choreographed Light Display References: In-Reply-To: CB wrote: >>The audio was obviously dubbed - it's just too good a quality to have >>been recorded live. But that could have been done simply to provide a >>better quality sound track (it happens all the time in movies). > > > I'm not sure what yo mean by 'dubbed', but it could be that the same source > that is triggering the moves (i.e., a keyboard outputting midi) is being > recorded from the console to the camcorder. In this case, the whole thing > could be being played live, and the recording could be of the actual live > mix. > OTOH, if you meant that it wasn't being recorded from the camcorder's > onboard mic, I concur. Sorry, my TV/film background slipped in there ;=) Yeah, that's basically what I meant. Dubbed audio is recorded later, after the video. It's often used to re-record actors' voices if there's a lot of background noise (next time you're watching a movie credits, look for "ADR [etc.]" - "Additional Dialog Recording"). If I were taping the lights, I'd use the onboard mic as a synchronization reference, then superimpose the digital audio track from the original source in my editing software. But now we're wandering out of the theatre into film & television ;=) -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ From: megironda [at] att.net (Gerry G.) Cc: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Subject: Re: Choreographed Light Display Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 03:57:03 +0000 Message-Id: <112320050357.17021.4383E88F000B09560000427D21612436460E0B02019D07090A03 [at] att.net> Some people ask why, I ask WHY NOT????????????????? For some strange reason Frank doesn't approve???? -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 22/11/05 20:10:37 GMT Standard Time, > charlier [at] RichmondSoundDesign.com writes: > > > > Well another Forum I am on has highly speculated that this comapny > > > made the control device. Looking at some of the products it may be > > > these guys, may be able to be done easier than most of use think. > > I find it interesting that there has been no comment on the aesthetic aspects > of this. Can it really be that we are all so obsessed with the HOW that we > ignore the WHY? > > > Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20051123042130.49620.qmail [at] web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:21:30 -0800 (PST) From: Norman Lazarus Subject: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. In-Reply-To: It seems that the Walt Disney World, Orlando, FL Audio Visual Dept has been outsourced and the new AV provider is Presentation Services. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4383F1FD.514CBCD [at] cybercom.net> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:37:17 -0500 From: Dale Farmer Organization: The fuzz in the back of the fridge. Subject: Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. References: Norman Lazarus wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > It seems that the Walt Disney World, Orlando, FL Audio > Visual Dept has been outsourced and the new AV > provider is Presentation Services. Interesting. One more sign of the decline of Disney. --Dale ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20051123045657.85108.qmail [at] web33112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:56:57 -0800 (PST) From: June Abernathy Subject: Re: Rigging Certification I'm sorry Bill is so over this already, and I'm sorry that this thread has managed to seem like an attack on Bill, Peter, and their efforts, which I don't think any of us intended. I really haven't seen any posts from people who have issues with the test itself (other than to say that ESTA should probably consider a second, less rigorous test for day to day riggers who don't figure loads for full entertainment systems but do still need to know a lot of more basic stuff.) What there is issue with, that neither Bill or Peter or anyone else is addressing, is the very central question of what qualifies as "rigging" experience, in terms of what you need to accrue to be allowed to take the test, is still there. Or how you can possibly verify that experience. Depending on how tight or how loose the definitions of your particular self, employer, union local, or whatever are, there are HUGE differences. Not to mention what ESTA considers qualified rigging experience. You want more people to take the test? You want to have more "certified" riggers in the world? I know this is radical, but why not just let any random idiot who wants to take the test, take the test? If they pass, they pass. If it's a good test, as I presume it is, then you won't be passing people who don't know what the hell they are doing. Why not let the test itself be the bar you have to cross? June Abernathy IATSE #321 (Tampa, FL) FOH Electrician The Lion King National Tour (Gazelle) __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 05:41:31 GMT Subject: Re: Rigging Certification Message-Id: <20051122.214206.17548.13589 [at] webmail37.lax.untd.com> Hmmm... Speaking of a 'bar', I would like to mention that in California,= which is arguably the most highly regulated State, you are NOT required= to go to ANY Law School or have any real-life legal experience prior to= taking the Bar Exam. Your chance of passing may be slim, but you are no= t barred from taking it just because you avoided some hallowed halls and= a bill for $100,000. Yes, it is possible that an inexperienced Rigger w= ho just passed the Rigger's Exam could put someones life in danger, but = so could an inexperienced lawyer who just passed the bar exam do so when= he or she immediately starts defending death-penalty criminal cases. An= imperfect analogy... /s/ Richard = _______________________________ You want more people to take the test? You want to have more "certified" riggers in the world? I know this is radical, but why not just let any random idiot who wants to take the test, take the test? If they pass, they pass. If it's a good test, as I presume it is, then you won't be passing people who don't know what the hell they are doing. Why not let the test itself be the bar you have to cross? June Abernathy = ------------------------------ Message-ID: From: "Occy" References:

Subject: Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:18:30 -0800 It been that way at Disneyland Hotel for many years the PS-AV (AVHQ) had the a/v contract surprise it took this long. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Farmer" > > Norman Lazarus wrote: > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > It seems that the Walt Disney World, Orlando, FL Audio > > Visual Dept has been outsourced and the new AV > > provider is Presentation Services. > > Interesting. One more sign of the decline of Disney. > > --Dale > > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1236.208.51.52.18.1132731586.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:39:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: DMX termination From: "Bill Nelson" >> I have at my disposal a 1W 150 >>ohm resistor and an 0.25W 120 ohm resistor. So now I ask those far >>wiser than I, which resistor should I use? > > A pair of the quarter watt in parrallel, or go to the electronics store > and get the half W 120 Ohm. Since they are so danged cheap, and you went > all that way to get it, you might as well spend the extra buck on a pack > of five +/- 1%'ers, too! The 1/4 watt should be fine. Although not recommended, I used an 1/8 watt resistor in one terminator I made, and it did not get hot. If you are going to use two resistors in parallel, they will have to be 220 ohm - which will give a 110 ohm resistance. Either a 110 or 120 ohm resistance will work fine with any DMX cable. So will 100 ohm except in extreme situations. Bill ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1370.208.51.52.18.1132735099.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 00:38:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: What kind of system can do this? (fwd) From: "Bill Nelson" That 16 channel box would be useful, if it ran off DMX or MPX protocol. Bill ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #595 *****************************