Return-Path: X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Lite Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 25692932; Thu, 24 Nov 2005 03:01:37 -0800 X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #597 Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 03:00:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on prxy.net X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.6 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, SEE_FOR_YOURSELF autolearn=unavailable version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4f2 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #597 1. Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. by Jason Tollefson 2. Re: DMX termination by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 3. Re: "Not for Lifting" ratings on hardware by Delbert Hall 4. Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. by "Jon Ares" 5. Re: The problem at hand by Jim Hyslop 6. Re: Andrew's POV on Rigging Cert (was Kristi's thread) by Jim Hyslop 7. Re: questions by Jim Hyslop 8. Finally colored bubbles..can fog be far behind? by Herrick Goldman 9. Re: Rigging Certification by CB 10. Re: Rigging Certification by Bill Sapsis 11. Re: Andrew's POV on Rigging Cert (was Kristi's thread) by CB 12. Re: The problem at hand by "Bill Nelson" 13. Re: The problem at hand by Mike McElroy 14. Re: "Not for Lifting" ratings on hardware by "Donald A Rowe" 15. Re: "Not for Lifting" ratings on hardware by Bill Sapsis 16. Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. by Mat Goebel 17. Re: The problem at hand by Loren Schreiber 18. Re: Finally colored bubbles..can fog be far behind? by Dale Farmer 19. Re: "Not for Lifting" ratings on hardware by Brian Munroe 20. Re: "Not for Lifting" ratings on hardware by Brian Munroe 21. Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 22. Re: The problem at hand by "Bill Nelson" 23. Re: Certification expanded -Electrics by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 24. Re: The problem at hand by "Occy" 25. Re: Certification expanded by "Occy" 26. Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. by "Occy" 27. Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. by "Occy" 28. Re: Rigging Certification by "Occy" 29. Re: Walt Disney AV by Jason Tollefson *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-ID: <20051123233603.22095.qmail [at] web51004.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 15:36:03 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Tollefson Reply-To: jason [at] tollefsondesigns.com Subject: Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. In-Reply-To: Before you go to far in bashing the mouse (who, in the interest of full disclosure, does sign my paycheck) you should know a few more things about this situation. First of all the outsourcing only concerns the resort hotels, not the four parks at WDW. Second, this transfer will happen over the course of at least a year presumably so Disney can monitor and evaluate the success of the plan. Third, nobody is being fired or phased out. The fact of the matter is that WDW has been over 50 technicians short of where the company would like to be for some time. Finding, hiring and keeping qualified technicians has been very difficult. The 70 or so techs at the resort will be transfered to stages or other areas with in the parks to fill those holes. Hopefully this will relieve some of the scheduling and overtime headaches we've been forced to endure. There will, no doubt, be some thinning of the ranks either through better offers (I'd imagine the the comany awarded the bid will be hiring soon) or by resignations of those who don't enjoy their new role but in this case I really do think that Disney is attempting to do right by it's cast members in the face of a severe labor shortage. Thanks for listening and have a Disney day, Jason Tollefson > > > It seems that the Walt Disney World, Orlando, FL Audio > > > Visual Dept has been outsourced and the new AV > > > provider is Presentation Services. > > > > Interesting. One more sign of the decline of Disney. ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <1e3.4884c161.30b65879 [at] aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:42:49 EST Subject: Re: DMX termination In a message dated 23/11/05 21:11:18 GMT Standard Time, psyd [at] cox.net writes: > >> A pair of the quarter watt in parrallel, or go to the electronics > store > >> and get the half W 120 Ohm. > > > >Wrong. Two 120 ohm resistors in parallel is 60 ohm. > > Of course, Frank. Then you should use two in parallel and two in series. The numbers add up, with interpretation. But how a DMX terminator can need such heavyweight restors is beyond me. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 19:37:07 -0500 From: Delbert Hall Cc: peter [at] scheuconsulting.com Subject: Re: "Not for Lifting" ratings on hardware In-Reply-To: References:

On 11/23/05, Peter Scheu wrote: > For example... 1/4" proof coil Grade 30 chain, normally used for trim cha= ins > to attach lift lines to a pipe batten often comes with the disclaimer "No= t > for Lifting" (i.e. McMaster Carr). So how come everyone uses and spec's i= t > to be used to terminate lift lines? The use of 1/4" proof coil Grade 30 chain for creating trim chains on battens is common. The "proper" use of 1/4" proof coil Grade 30 chain for creating trim chains on battens is far less common. I see a lot of trim chains and a very large number are not properly made.=20 Properly made trim chains should start at the thimble on the lift cables, and terminate back to the thimble. So, the 1/4" proof coil chain, which has a WLL of about 1300 lbs, can support up to around 2600 lbs since each leg of the trim chain holds only 50% of the total load. Too many times the one end of the trim chain is terminated back to the chain itself. This causes two problems: 1) the part of the chain that is above the termination is holding 100% of the load, and 2) one link of the chain is being pinched between the attachment hardware (usually a shackle) and another link. This is bad. Even when terminated back to the thimble, you still must be careful to not "capture" a link between the attachment hardware and another link.=20 Jay Gelrum explains the proper and improper way to make a trim chain in his book. As for quicklinks, all quicklinks are not created equally. French made Maillon Rapide (quicklinks) are rated for overhead lifting. If you do a web search you can find them. The performer flying industry uses a lot of Maillon Rapides, but there are a few tricks properly using them. When used in a vertical orientation, the coupler should screw "down" to close the link, and if the quickline is used in conjunction with a swivel, wrap tape around link so that the coupler cannot unscrew. -Delbert ------------------------------ Message-ID: <003b01c5f090$ea4e15f0$0600000a [at] BRUTUS> From: "Jon Ares" References: Subject: Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:49:24 -0800 > Walt is dead. Another piece of ecidence that Mike is the devil and the > lowest idder will rule the world. Or what's left of it. Mike is gone, too... (not dead, just relieved of his duties). Or is he just relieved of his duties where ABC and their studio ventures are concerned? - Jon Ares www.hevanet.com/acreative ------------------------------ Message-ID: <438510EA.90105 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:01:30 -0500 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: The problem at hand References:

In-Reply-To: Mike McElroy wrote: > I like this idea of a pair of legs underneath as a failsafe. The only > potential problem is easy and safe lowering once the show is over. Since the legs are only a fail-safe, lowering should be accomplished by simply controlling the air or oil used to hold it up. > I'll have to ponder it, but I'm still unconvinced of the virtues of > pneumatics over hydraulics. I don't know enough about either to render even an un-informed opinion ;=) -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Message-ID: <438511DD.8010108 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:05:33 -0500 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: Andrew's POV on Rigging Cert (was Kristi's thread) References: In-Reply-To: Bruce Purdy wrote: >>And what sort of dink designs a performing space with windows all over the >>top of it? > > > The Geneva NY High School just built a brand new auditorium that opened > this year. They actually have skylights over the auditorium! And here I thought the Scarborough Village Theatre (in Scarborough, Ontario) was the only theatre that had a skylight in it. It is now permanently covered over, but still... -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4385129E.3010506 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:08:46 -0500 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: questions References: In-Reply-To: jdgrams [at] saintmarys.edu wrote: > Are you guys talking about stage craft or your weekend plans???? There's a difference?!? -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:21:30 -0500 Subject: Finally colored bubbles..can fog be far behind? From: Herrick Goldman Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Those of you who read slashdot may have seen this: http://tinyurl.com/ca9ga But they can now make cool colored bubbles. Very fun. -- Herrick Goldman Lighting Designer, NYC www.HGLightingDesign.com 917-797-3624 "To the scores of silent alchemists who wreak their joy in darkness and in light bringing magic to life, we bow most humbly. "-CDS ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20051123185849.00d02650 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:58:49 From: CB Subject: Re: Rigging Certification >I wasn't taking any of this personally before and I did not think it was an >attack on myself or Peter or anyone else. But I'm beginning to wonder. Take it personally, Unk, just not as an attack. These are your friends, who trust you to give them the straight dope, and not to candy it up. As suspected, they were right. Thanks for going the additional mile and answering as if it were your job! BTW, it seems as if I may be able to add 'savant' *AND* 'rigger' to my title! Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 21:23:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Rigging Certification From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: As far as I'm concerned, this is my job. Or at least one of them. And a darn good one at that. Congrats on the new titles. Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Join the Long Reach Long Riders on their 3rd annual cross country charity motorcycle ride. On 11/23/05 6:58 PM, "CB" wrote: > Thanks for going the additional mile and > answering as if it were your job! > BTW, it seems as if I may be able to add 'savant' *AND* 'rigger' to my > title! ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20051123191651.00d02650 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 19:16:51 From: CB Subject: Re: Andrew's POV on Rigging Cert (was Kristi's thread) >You were very lucky to have a tour rigger who could. But, I >say again, with good planning this situation should not arise. Ehm, with teh planning your suggest, touring would never occur. It would never get out out the planning stage. Sometimes, (that is, not every time, but some of the times) myself and the A1, on the last coupla tours I did, would get the opportunity to see the venue on Monday afternoon when we arrived in a new city, and sometimes we'd get to see it for the first time Tuesday morning, the day of the first show. Depended on luck, how far we were staying from the venue, etc. One of the skills that a touring technician has to have is the ability to get it done. Period. Make it work. Make something to make it work. Do it now, we have a show. Frank, you need to walk a mile in a touring technician's shoes. You'[d be a mile away, but you'd have new shoes. Really though, touring and working in the same house for twenty years are as similar as hunting alligators and taking care of the family spaniel. Yeah, both situations deal with animals, but so what? They just don't compare. There is nothing in the curriculum vitae that you have provided us that makes your comments to any touring technician about touring much use at all. It'd be nice to have all that planning, but the first step is to get the specs from the theatre you're going into, and they'll be wrong. They just will! And all of the pre-planning you've done will have gone for naught, and you'll end up having to fake it anyways. Micght as well spend the time wrapped around a good single malt, and worry about the in on Tuesday morning. >And what sort of dink designs a performing space with windows all over the >top of it? The facility's designer isn't usually at fault, its the guy that decided to use that facility to do a show. I'll refer you to the ice hockey rink we did "The King and I" at in Tallahassee. The guy designed a great ice hockey rink, he just didn't figure that we'd be doing live theatre in there, counterweight system and all! Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1097.208.51.52.105.1132800805.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:53:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: The problem at hand From: "Bill Nelson" >> But, Bruce, it's a big ship. Enormous inertia. Everything happens >> slowly, even sinking. Which is why neither hydraulics nor pneumatics are really suitable. They tend to have problems with very small and slow movements. Remember your physics lessons in static and dynamic friction. Bill ------------------------------ Message-ID: <90b4c67a0511231858x383faf8cp737209478da3a545 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 02:58:35 +0000 From: Mike McElroy Subject: Re: The problem at hand In-Reply-To: References:

Well, it wouldn't be a small or particularly slow movement. The actuators I'm spec'ing have a stroke length of 36", and it would be moving maybe a little slower than the full flow output of the hydraulic pump (courtesy of a flow regulator). -MikeMac On 11/24/05, Bill Nelson wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > >> But, Bruce, it's a big ship. Enormous inertia. Everything happens > >> slowly, even sinking. > > Which is why neither hydraulics nor pneumatics are really suitable. They > tend to have problems with very small and slow movements. Remember your > physics lessons in static and dynamic friction. > > Bill > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <004e01c5f0a6$f1cfec20$0201a8c0 [at] hsd1.pa.comcast.net> From: "Donald A Rowe" References:

Subject: Re: "Not for Lifting" ratings on hardware Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 22:26:55 -0500 Just a curiosity question here.... A theater I have had the "privilege" of working at got an OSHA inspection and all of their battens trim chains were redone. Now they run like this: The lift line ends in a nicopress and thimble. in the thimble is a 1/4" shackle (painted blue) pin up and the pin ziptied in. the chain is just long enough to go around the pipe (about 6 links) and each end of the chain is in the shackle. Also none of the "inspected" battens come in further that 6" from the deck. So the question is... should I be glad that there is a 100% hard hat policy while working in the space??? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Delbert Hall" To: "Stagecraft" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 7:37 PM Subject: Re: "Not for Lifting" ratings on hardware For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- On 11/23/05, Peter Scheu wrote: > For example... 1/4" proof coil Grade 30 chain, normally used for trim chains > to attach lift lines to a pipe batten often comes with the disclaimer "Not > for Lifting" (i.e. McMaster Carr). So how come everyone uses and spec's it > to be used to terminate lift lines? The use of 1/4" proof coil Grade 30 chain for creating trim chains on battens is common. The "proper" use of 1/4" proof coil Grade 30 chain for creating trim chains on battens is far less common. I see a lot of trim chains and a very large number are not properly made. Properly made trim chains should start at the thimble on the lift cables, and terminate back to the thimble. So, the 1/4" proof coil chain, which has a WLL of about 1300 lbs, can support up to around 2600 lbs since each leg of the trim chain holds only 50% of the total load. Too many times the one end of the trim chain is terminated back to the chain itself. This causes two problems: 1) the part of the chain that is above the termination is holding 100% of the load, and 2) one link of the chain is being pinched between the attachment hardware (usually a shackle) and another link. This is bad. Even when terminated back to the thimble, you still must be careful to not "capture" a link between the attachment hardware and another link. Jay Gelrum explains the proper and improper way to make a trim chain in his book. As for quicklinks, all quicklinks are not created equally. French made Maillon Rapide (quicklinks) are rated for overhead lifting. If you do a web search you can find them. The performer flying industry uses a lot of Maillon Rapides, but there are a few tricks properly using them. When used in a vertical orientation, the coupler should screw "down" to close the link, and if the quickline is used in conjunction with a swivel, wrap tape around link so that the coupler cannot unscrew. -Delbert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 22:44:34 -0500 Subject: Re: "Not for Lifting" ratings on hardware From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: When was the last time you heard of a trim chain failure? It rarely happens. Your rig sounds fine with the exception that the batten is free to rotate in the chain basket. Remember that most 1/4' proof coil chain has a WLL of at least 1,200 pounds. The 1/4" 7 X 19 GAC has a WLL of 1,000 pounds, as does the shackle. So the weak link in the system is not the chain. I'm assuming you mean 6'(feet) off the deck, yes? Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Join the Long Reach Long Riders on their 3rd annual cross country charity motorcycle ride. On 11/23/05 10:26 PM, "Donald A Rowe" wrote: > Just a curiosity question here.... > A theater I have had the "privilege" of working at got an OSHA inspection > and all of their battens trim chains were redone. Now they run like this: > The lift line ends in a nicopress and thimble. in the thimble is a 1/4" > shackle (painted blue) pin up and the pin ziptied in. the chain is just > long enough to go around the pipe (about 6 links) and each end of the chain > is in the shackle. Also none of the "inspected" battens come in further > that 6" from the deck. So the question is... should I be glad that there is > a 100% hard hat policy while working in the space??? ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:17:43 -0800 From: Mat Goebel Cc: jason [at] tollefsondesigns.com Subject: Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. In-Reply-To: References:

Are the WDW techs IA? I know the DL resort techs are (or at least have the option). On 11/23/05, Jason Tollefson wrote: >Third, nobody is being fired or phased out. The fact of the matter is that WDW has > been over 50 technicians short of where the company would like to be for = some time. Finding, > hiring and keeping qualified technicians has been very difficult. The 70= or so techs at the > resort will be transfered to stages or other areas with in the parks to f= ill those holes. -- Mat Goebel www.matgoebel.com Mobile: 510.693.1448 ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.2.20051123203915.03d76d60 [at] mail.sdsu.edu> Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 21:04:00 -0800 From: Loren Schreiber Subject: Re: The problem at hand In-Reply-To: References: I think I said this in my original post: > >You could also just run it up against a hard stop and put in more air > >pressure than you need. It wouldn't budge a bit. Mike, it sounds like you WANT to use hydraulics and are looking for backup from this list. I say, go for it! Hydraulics will definitely work. They will be a little messier than pneumatics and probably a bit more expensive since you will need to buy a pump (manual or motorized) and all the fittings cost more. I have used both forms of fluid power over the (many) years and I prefer to use pneumatics if the design allows. Pneumatics are clean, simple and relatively inexpensive. Furthermore, I've recently been using paintball gun CO2 tanks for portable pneumatics and SFX. The articulating wings for "Angels in America" I exhibited at USITT Tech Expo is one example. You may have seen my article on "Reverse Peristalsis" in TD&T wherein I used hydraulic pressure to push pinch rollers along a serpentine hose to achieve a difficult motion profile. I've used both systems a lot. All I am saying is don't discount pneumatics, especially if you have not used either system. For your application--8000 pounds of dead lifting, then hydraulics may be the only way you can go. That's a big load! Readily available air cylinders top out at about 4" bore. At 100 psi shop air that's only 1250 pounds of force. But I'm not sure that I'd design a system that REQUIRED 8000 pounds of force in the first place. It sounds a bit, um . . . Soviet. A counterbalance might be something to consider. As far as safety locks, for when the system is in position, you should consider Destaco brand clamping units. They come in various sizes and "cam over" so that even when pressure is lost, they don't unlock. http://www.destaco.com I did a 10' x 12' rocking deck for "The Tempest" at the Old Globe in San Diego back in the 80s. I used a 2" hydraulic cylinder, a 5HP pump and a throttle valve to control the rocking. It looked great! I think that pump has been used maybe twice in the last 20 years. The Old Globe's pneumatics have been use much more frequently. That is to say, plan for your future. Then talk to Dan McNeil at the Denver Center. He's a die-hard hydraulic guy. In other words this is the way to go: <-----> Loren Schreiber, Technical Director School of Theatre, Television and Film San Diego State University Long Reach Long Riders announce dates for the 2006 Charity Ride. Check out www.lrlr.org for more information, and then join us! ------------------------------ Message-ID: <43854BD6.81185598 [at] cybercom.net> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 00:12:54 -0500 From: Dale Farmer Organization: The fuzz in the back of the fridge. Subject: Re: Finally colored bubbles..can fog be far behind? References: Herrick Goldman wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Those of you who read slashdot may have seen this: > > http://tinyurl.com/ca9ga > > But they can now make cool colored bubbles. Very fun. Probably just as long as it takes them to license the dye chemistry. --Dale ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:20:00 -0500 From: Brian Munroe Subject: Re: "Not for Lifting" ratings on hardware In-Reply-To: References:

Donald A Rowe wrote: > Just a curiosity question here.... > A theater I have had the "privilege" of working at got an OSHA inspection > and all of their battens trim chains were redone. Now they run like this= : > The lift line ends in a nicopress and thimble. in the thimble is a 1/4" > shackle (painted blue) pin up and the pin ziptied in. the chain is just > long enough to go around the pipe (about 6 links) and each end of the cha= in > is in the shackle. Also none of the "inspected" battens come in further > that 6" from the deck. So the question is... should I be glad that there= is > a 100% hard hat policy while working in the space??? What is the purpose of the chain in this setup? Certainly not to "trim" if the chain is that short. Get rid of the chain and go from the thimble to a shackle to a batten clamp. Brian Munroe bpmunroe [at] gmail.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:22:56 -0500 From: Brian Munroe Subject: Re: "Not for Lifting" ratings on hardware In-Reply-To: References:

Bill Sapsis wrote: > Remember that most 1/4' proof coil chain has a WLL of at least 1,200 poun= ds. > The 1/4" 7 X 19 GAC has a WLL of 1,000 pounds, as does the shackle. So t= he > weak link in the system is not the chain. What is the design factor on 1/4" proof coil chain? That is, if the WLL is 1200#, what is the breaking strengtth? Brian Munroe bpmunroe [at] gmail.com ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: <22f.2553b66.30b6b83f [at] aol.com> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:31:27 EST Subject: Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. >Are the WDW techs IA? Yes, they are all represented by Local 631 and work under an IA contract. Since Florida is a "right to work" State, each individual has the option to formally join or not. Anyone hired by Disney as a Stage Technician is eligible to join. SteveV Orl, FL ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1343.208.51.52.70.1132815099.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 22:51:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: The problem at hand From: "Bill Nelson" If the motion is to be in only one direction, consider using a bleed-down hydraulic system. No pump needed, although it makes the platform raising easier. Before the performance, you open the source fluid valve and raise the platform/load, then close the valve and install the safety lock on the platform. When you want the motion to start, remove the safety lock then open the bleed-down valve - which is set for the flow rate you desire. If friction is kept low, the motion will be smooth and as slow as you want it to be. When the platform is all the way down, close the bleed-down valve. I used this setup for the "melting" of the Wicked Witch on Wizard of Oz. Hydraulics are preferred, as the fluid is not compressible. Bill ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: <1e5.48f8b77c.30b6befd [at] aol.com> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 02:00:13 EST Subject: Re: Certification expanded -Electrics From Steve L - >Now would be the time to bat these questions around and hit a few of >the answers towards the Electrical Skills Working Group and the newly >appointed SMEs. With regard to the Electrics Certification you posed some excellent questions. As someone who has been involved with this effort since the beginning, I offer these observations: 1) There are significantly more people who work with electrical issues everyday in entertainment than there are who do rigging. Practically everyone uses electrical energy to get their work done so it is not just the lighting department's issue. 2) The definition of a "master electrician" is even more vague in our business than that of a master rigger. It is further complicated by the existence of "licensed" electricians who may not really know the particulars of entertainment specific equipment and applications. 3) A major difference between the development efforts for the rigging certification and the electrics certification is an established model national code that sets a standard of knowledge and performance (NFPA 70, National Electrical Code and NFPA 70E, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace). Even though it's adoption by various jurisdictions across the country varies, it is still a gold standard reference. 4) After 5 years of Working Group efforts to create a document to define a full Body of Knowledge for an Entertainment Electrician (top 1/3), we have progressed to the Subject Matter Expert (SME) phase for test writing and you have an opportunity to have direct input to the process. The following is quoted from the ESTA - ETCP web site under Calls for Action: "Job analysis is the foundation upon which to build a viable and rigorous certification examination. The job analysis will focus on analyzing electrical tasks based on importance, time spent and consequence of error." "ETCP needs your help to ensure that the examination reflects the job requirements. Your judgments will assist the SMEs in developing the examination specifications. If you are an experienced entertainment electrician and are interested in participating, please submit the form below. Applicants will be sent details on the on-line survey as soon as it is available." Please sign on (www.esta.org) and contribute your experience to the effort. Thank you, Steve Vanciel ETCP Electrical Skills Working Group member, Lighting and Rigging Production Planner, Disney Event Group Orlando, Florida ------------------------------ Message-ID: From: "Occy" References:

Subject: Re: The problem at hand Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 00:47:08 -0800 Are you guys living in the real world? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Hyslop" >> > Jerry Durand wrote: > > You could also just run it up against a hard stop and put in more air > > pressure than you need. It wouldn't budge a bit. > > I kind of like the hinged legs idea, as a backup in case the pneumatics > or hydraulics spring a leak. > > -- > Jim Hyslop > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: From: "Occy" References: Subject: Re: Certification expanded Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 00:52:00 -0800 Guess you didn't read your yellow card? ----- Original Message ----- From: "CB" > > >Now would be the time to bat these questions around and hit a few of > >the answers towards the Electrical Skills Working Group and the newly > >appointed SMEs. Before it's after the test and we're asking the same > >questions. > > So, how will this affect us skweeks, who have suddenly discovered (much to > our surprise and chagrin) that we are electricians? It has already taken > away our rental car, and our representation at Dept. Heads meetings, what > else is in store? > Chris "Chris" Babbie > Location Sound > MON AZ > > Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates > negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... > ------------------------------ Message-ID: From: "Occy" References: Subject: Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 00:55:17 -0800 Mike is gone too from the company ----- Original Message ----- From: "CB" > Walt is dead. Another piece of ecidence that Mike is the devil and the > lowest idder will rule the world. Or what's left of it. > Chris "Chris" Babbie > Location Sound > MON AZ > > Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates > negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... > ------------------------------ Message-ID: From: "Occy" References:

Subject: Re: Walt Disney World Audio Visual Dept. Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:19:00 -0800 Mat, Not the a/v techs at the 3 hotels they are PS-AV, might be thinking of the engineers (OE) that do the convention center and such at the DL resort. Tech services only see parts of it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mat Goebel" Are the WDW techs IA? I know the DL resort techs are (or at least have the option). On 11/23/05, Jason Tollefson wrote: >Third, nobody is being fired or phased out. The fact of the matter is that WDW has > been over 50 technicians short of where the company would like to be for > some time. Finding, > hiring and keeping qualified technicians has been very difficult. The 70 > or so techs at the > resort will be transfered to stages or other areas with in the parks to > fill those holes. -- Mat Goebel www.matgoebel.com Mobile: 510.693.1448 ------------------------------ Message-ID: From: "Occy" References: Subject: Re: Rigging Certification Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 01:46:40 -0800 Well I have over 3,000 points then. Was never worried about the points system was more worried about the math and how they wanted it, and how tricky are the questions. I just didn't want to look like a fool is all. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sapsis" --------------------------------------------------- > > OK. I'm back. > > First. I never said I was "over" this. I said I was out of energy and > time. Might not be a big difference to you but it is to me. > > Second. As noted previously, certification for other grades of riggers > isn't planned. The Essential Skill program, which I discussed in this > forum > and offered a website address so you could go see it for yourself, is > planning on addressing this issue. > > Third. In response to one of Kristi's posts I did indeed address what > qualifies as "rigging experience". Obviously, I didn't do it well enough. > How's this. > > Pulling on ropes. > Hanging anything. > Un-hanging anything. > Weighting anything. > Un-weighting anything. > Rigging a traveler. > Un-rigging a traveler. > Designing a hanging plot. > Thinking about designing a hanging plot. > Making cable clips. > Making swage fittings. > Buying shackles from Sapsis Rigging. > Buying any rigging (ie..suspension) hardware from Sapsis Rigging. > Buying any rigging hardware from anywhere. > Hanging hoists > Putting truss together. > Taking truss apart. > Making bridles. > Making bridals. (hmmm. Maybe not) > Pulling dimmer racks up to the fly gallery. > Running a show from the rail. > Loading in a show at the rail > Striking a show at the rail. > Doing math problems to figure out the load on a bridle. > Getting out a bathroom scale to double check the math you did to figure > out > the load on a bridle. > Explaining to your crew why you should wear a hard hat on stage. > Showing your crew the divot in your stage made by a falling counterweight. > Evaluating which rope to use when you come over to hang me. > Designing fall Arrest systems > Using Fall Arrest systems > Hanging in a Fall Arrest system waiting for rescue. > Hanging speakers. (animate and inanimate) > > The list goes on and on. > Anyone else want to add more? Maybe you could take a look at the > Candidate > handbook and review the Content Outline. There are 3.5 pages of notes on > what the test will cover. If you do any of those things, ever, that's > rigging. > > Third.1 ESTA did not/does not determine what is rigging experience. In a > sense, you did. All those surveys helped us determine what should be > tested. > > Third.2 The people who developed the test and the qualifications are one > of > us. They are not outsiders who do not know anything about our business. > They/we/I understand that records aren't always kept for things that we > do. > They/we/I understand if you have to estimate sometimes and if things are a > bit vague. This is not the IRS fer cryin' out loud. > > Fourth. If we did not pre-qualify people for the test; simply let anyone > who strolled up go on in and take it, then there would be a lot of people > taking the test who weren't qualified to take the test. And they would > fail. And that failure would be pointless. All that would happen is that > they would be frustrated, embarrassed and discouraged. How would you feel > if you sat down to take a test and realized, after reading the questions, > that you did not have a clue. I know how I would feel and I wouldn't want > that to happen to anyone. > > > Folks, if you don't like something, that's fine. Do something to change > it. > Got a suggestion? Talk to the ETCP people. Peter says that they would be > happy to speak with you and I'll take his word for it. (Note to self. > Don't sit between Peter and Katie at the next meeting.) If you are > looking > to me to change something because you do not like it, I'm sorry, but > that's > not going to happen. > > I wasn't taking any of this personally before and I did not think it was > an > attack on myself or Peter or anyone else. But I'm beginning to wonder. > > Thanks > Bill S. > www.sapsis-rigging.com > 800.727.7471 > 800.292.3851 fax > 267.278.4561 mobile > > Join the Long Reach Long Riders on their 3rd annual cross country charity > motorcycle ride. ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20051124105844.50532.qmail [at] web51013.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2005 02:58:44 -0800 (PST) From: Jason Tollefson Reply-To: jason [at] tollefsondesigns.com Subject: Re: Walt Disney AV In-Reply-To: Mike is gone. Find a new target to slam. Jason Tollefson > Walt is dead. Another piece of ecidence that Mike is the devil and the > lowest idder will rule the world. Or what's left of it. > Chris "Chris" Babbie > Location Sound > MON AZ ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #597 *****************************