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X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 26649711; Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:01:23 -0800 X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #652 Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 03:00:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.1 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, SARE_UN4,TW_PP autolearn=unavailable version=3.0.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on prxy.net X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4f2 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #652 1. Position Announcement by "Travis Whitaker" 2. Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant by "Bill Nelson" 3. Birthday of Note by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 4. Re: Birthday of Note by Bill Sapsis 5. Re: vector works by "Stephen E. Rees" 6. Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant by SS 7. Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 8. Re: Detroit supplier by Noemi Ybarra 9. Flame proofing by b Ricie 10. stages abroad by David Wetmore 11. Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant by SS 12. Re: Followspot Boomerang by CB 13. Another sprinkler story by CB 14. Re: The Phantom of Opera' officially knocked off 'Cats' NEWS by CB 15. Source for stageweights by Shelly A Ford 16. Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant by CB 17. Re: Source for stageweights by "Peter Scheu" 18. Re: Source for stageweights by Scott Parker 19. Re: Source for stageweights by Greg Bierly 20. Re: Source for stageweights by Bill Sapsis 21. Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 22. Re: Followspot Boomerang by "Mitch Hefter" 23. Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 24. Re: diy multicable? by "Mitch Hefter" 25. Re: Flame proofing by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 26. Re: diy multicable? by "Mitch Hefter" 27. Beauty Queen Leenane by "Robert Napoli" 28. Re: Beauty Queen Leenane by Stephen Litterst 29. Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant by "Idaho Scenic and Rigging" 30. Re: Source for stageweights by "Peter Scheu" 31. Re: Beauty Queen Leenane by Pat Kight 32. Union Dealings by "Jeffrey Kanyuck" 33. Re: Union Dealings by Stephen Litterst 34. Re: Union Dealings by "Storms, Randy" 35. Re: Union Dealings by "Cyr, Dale" 36. Re: Union Dealings by "Idaho Scenic and Rigging" 37. Re: Union Dealings by "Jeffrey Kanyuck" 38. Re: Union Dealings by "Tom Heemskerk" 39. Re: Union Dealings by "Jeffrey Kanyuck" 40. Re: Union Dealings by "Storms, Randy" 41. Re: Union Dealings by SS 42. Re: Union Dealings by MissWisc [at] aol.com 43. Re: Union Dealings by "Jeffrey Kanyuck" 44. Re: Union Dealings by MissWisc [at] aol.com 45. Re: Union Dealings by Jim Hyslop 46. Re: Union Dealings by Stuart Wheaton 47. Re: Flaming arrows and Coleman fuel by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 48. Re: Union Dealings by Jim Hyslop 49. Re: Union Dealings by "Idaho Scenic and Rigging" 50. Re: Flaming arrows and Coleman fuel by "Idaho Scenic and Rigging" 51. Re: Union Dealings by Tony Kambic 52. Carpentry/Paint Call by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 53. Re: stages aboard by "Thad Kramer" 54. Re: stages aboard by "Thad Kramer" *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 13 Jan 2006 11:51:55 -0000 Message-ID: <20060113115155.9133.qmail [at] mail18.cybercon.com> From: "Travis Whitaker" Subject: Position Announcement References: In-Reply-To: Hey there! I've been in lurk mode for a while now, and thought someone on the list might be interested. I will be leaving my position here in Michigan to return to the Philadelphia area, and thought I would pass along the position announcement to help the district find a replacement. The position as posted is a bit vague, but I would be happy to offer more info, just contact me off line. Travis travis_w [at] cpacpresents.com DIRECTOR: PERFORMING ARTS CENTER - Charlotte, MI, US Job posted on January 9, 2006 Charlotte Public Schools in Charlotte, Michigan, is looking for a Supervisor for our Performing Arts Center. Bachelor's Degree preferred. Experience or training in technical systems including lighting design, computer light boards, complex sound systems, costume design, set design and construction. Experience in managing program budget. Must have excellent organizational skills and interpersonal skills. Ability to work with public, staff, and students. Will be responsible for professional bookings, rentals, and internal use of calendar. For venue overview see www.cpacpresents.com. Send letter of interest, resume, and credentials to: CHARLOTTE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, 378 State Street, Charlotte, MI 48813 by February 21, 2006. 517-541-5103. ------------------------------ Message-ID: <2218.208.51.52.47.1137155920.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 04:38:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant From: "Bill Nelson" > Why would flat black paint, particularly if flame > retardant was used char faster than > unpainted/untreated lumber, or lumber paints another > color? Because the dark flat paint absorbs the heat much better than a light colored panel. The paint is a good enough heat conductor that it transfers this heat to the underlying wood. ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: Birthday of Note Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:56:28 -0500 Message-ID: <000501c61840$c511ced0$6701a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: Today is Tabitha Stevens' 40th birthday. Can't quite place her? Think Samantha...Darren...and Grandma Endorra.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:22:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Birthday of Note From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: The Baby!!!!!????? Great. I wasn't feeling old enough already..... On 1/13/06 7:56 AM, "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Today is Tabitha Stevens' 40th birthday. > > Can't quite place her? Think Samantha...Darren...and Grandma Endorra.... > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <43C7AFA9.8050605 [at] fredonia.edu> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:48:25 -0500 From: "Stephen E. Rees" Reply-To: Rees [at] fredonia.edu Subject: Re: vector works References: Chris, For VW, it's Control Z, Control Z, Control Z. :) Steve Rees CB wrote: > All I have to say is that you really have to be wary of software designers > that can't find the delete key and can't follow simple instructions. Maybe > its that 'pro' thang... > Chris "Chris" Babbie ------------------------------ Message-ID: <8231e7ea0601130715t51e18c06ubb9a93fce54ce2dd [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:15:20 -0500 From: SS Subject: Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant In-Reply-To: References: >>>I've also seen "smoulders" caused by ellipsoidals getting too close to s= oft goods. Don't think that just because something has been flame retarded, tha= t it'll never burn, but the fact it does a good job of slowing down the proce= ss is well worth the small added expense of using the stuff.<<< Which is exactly one of the reasons (or so I've been told and try to follow in practice) one should try not to put an LX pipe directly up/down stage of goods. If I had a nickel for every house I've been in that had "burns" on the backside (and occasionally the front) of legs, borders, travellers, etc etc, well.....I'd have a whole bunch of nickels :) Zetex offers a nice solution on those short running productions. -SS TTS EKU "Oh, and next Friday... is Hawaiian shirt day... so, you know, if you want to you can go ahead and wear a Hawaiian shirt and jeans. " --Bill Lumbergh ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: Scenery and Flame Retardant Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:20:13 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c61854$d9ad4a90$6701a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > Which is exactly one of the reasons (or so I've been told and > try to follow in practice) one should try not to put an LX > pipe directly up/down stage of goods. ...Which is why we have Zetec ("Zetex"? "Zetek"? Bill! Barney! Help!). ------------------------------ Message-ID: <43C7CB2A.3BF345ED [at] jonesphillips.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:45:46 -0500 From: Noemi Ybarra Subject: Re: Detroit supplier References:

Don't forget Tobin's Lake Studios! Noemi Ybarra Kevin Lowry wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Vincent Lighting has a Detroit office, there is also Pegasus > theatrical either should be able to help > > Kevin Lowry > > On 1/3/06, IAEG [at] aol.com wrote: > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > friends, i am looking for a lighting supplier, with movers in the Detroit > > area for a small rental I need to do in the northern suburbs of Detroit in > > February. ( Empasis SMALL ) > > > > please respond off list, , , to iaeg [at] aol.com > > > > > > very best, > > > > Keith Arsenault > > > > IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group > > Tampa, Florida > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20060113160652.61524.qmail [at] web50611.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:06:52 -0800 (PST) From: b Ricie Subject: Flame proofing In-Reply-To: Again, it is flame RETARDANT not flame Proofing. When your on tour and the venue you are going to requires everything to be back painted, you back paint. Last year the final stop of our 7 month tour required everything to be flame retarded and back painted. If we could not provide them with the certificates stating so the stuff would be field tested. What ever did not pass the test did not get loaded in. Had the show not been properly advanced then there would not have been a final stop. The few weeks before our final stop was spent finding time on good load in days to back paint and figuring out what we could do the show without. Flame retard it all, back paint, keep certificates. >>But a 10" 2KW fresnel with a cracked lens will eat L117HT in about 5 minutes. I think that it all depends on the exact optics.<< Has anyone ever lit a cigarette with a source 4 10 degree lens and the sun? It happens quick. Brian Rice 508-685-0716 b_ricie [at] yahoo.com "Blessed are the cracked: For it is they who let in the light." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <11853137.1137168956807.JavaMail.davidfitwe [at] mac.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:15:56 -0800 From: David Wetmore Subject: stages abroad Well I guess its time for a tech that does work on board, and also on big ship, to chime in. I have never worked on "small ships" but I have worked on smaller ships. I now work on some of the largest "cruise" ships in the world. All cruise ship sailing these days as far as I know have at least 2 stabalizers, the even bigger ships have 4. The ship I am on currently has 4. This isn't to say that we always use 4 or that using 4 instead of 2 is always better. I can't say it would make things worse, it just doesn't always make it better. It all depends on the sea conditions. For the most part the mega ships are very steady, yes being long helps a lot. I do also agree that at certain times of the year, getting to Bermuda isn't fun. I just finished a season of NYC to Bermuda. Lets see, rigging. Yes everything is in tracks. The first ship with a fly grid was the Carnival Destiny, no tracks. They didn't know any better at the time. I have heard so many stories from techs, who knows what the truth about what happened is anymore, but the jist is this. Everything was fine in the shipyard (aka just like a land theatre), then they went for sea trials. Wait a minute everything is banging into each other. The 2000+ lbs sencery piece that is right next to a row of cybers, well so much for the cybers, scenery wins!!! They installed tracks very soon after. And mega ships have had them ever since. Most electrics are not movable, I have worked with a few ship that have had at least the farthest us truss movable. The truss is still in tracks. Its is kind of nice to have a truss full of movers that you can bring to the deck in a show and raise up on cue, makes for some nice effects, especially for magic acts. Getting to lights. Three options, some ships have all three, some have only one or two. These would be Ladder, Genie, or scaffolding. I currently have all three, plus catwalks for my foh lights. Most ships do not have catwalks at foh due to space for the decks above, so scaff, or rigging chairs are used a lot. It really isn't all that bad to be on a ladder or genie at sea. yes it takes a little getting used to, but it isn't all that bad. Now here is the interesting part about shows being canceled due to bad weather. It does happen but not that often, IF you are talking about the production shows, in the theatre. But some ships also have ice skating rinks. These shows are much more likely to get canceled, although not that often. If you are interested in what a ship tech does from day to day, check out my blog. http://shiptech.blogspot.com David Wetmore light tech [at] sea ------------------------------ Message-ID: <8231e7ea0601130842q27591c54x407ef1feb5324093 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:42:33 -0500 From: SS Subject: Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant In-Reply-To: References:

>>>>Which is why we have Zetec ("Zetex"? "Zetek"? Bill! Barney! Help!).<= <<< Hey, I just said that!!! See... >>>Zetex offers a nice solution on those short running productions.<<< Seriously though, I don't know what most folks on this list prefer to call it, but in most instances in my life it has always been referred to as Zetec (spell it how you will). Much like yourself, I have heard tons of different variations on pronunciation :) However, the "technical" or, "brand" name is Zetex. Check it out. Follow the link below: (section 4-1, or pg. 35 of JR Clancy's catalog) http://www.jrclancy.com/Downloads/ProductCatalog55.pdf - SS TTS EKU "Oh, and next Friday... is Hawaiian shirt day... so, you know, if you want to you can go ahead and wear a Hawaiian shirt and jeans. " --Bill Lumbergh ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20060113102604.00d1aae0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:26:04 From: CB Subject: Re: Followspot Boomerang I gotta say, if I was to decide to write a follow spot standard (don't worry, I don't see that happening...) the first thing that I'd do is call June, and ask how she does things... Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20060113102731.00d1aae0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:27:31 From: CB Subject: Another sprinkler story > It seems a mom had hung a gown on a sprinkler head in the motel room. A gown... yeah, that's it, we hung a gown up there. That's what set it off... Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20060113102819.00d1aae0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:28:19 From: CB Subject: Re: The Phantom of Opera' officially knocked off 'Cats' NEWS >What I can't believe is that Bob still uses a corded mic. Nothing more dependable than copper! Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:31:33 -0500 (EST) From: Shelly A Ford Subject: Source for stageweights Message-id: <7254843.1137173493701.JavaMail.lumadmin [at] northshore> Can anyone recommend a supplier for stageweights and sandbags? Thanks ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20060113104029.00d1aae0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:40:29 From: CB Subject: Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant >Which is why you will not find black vinyl car seats in Phoenix We did a bit of a test, and discovered that cars heat up just as high, but darker (more absorptive) cars just heat up a bit faster. if you're going to have the thing out in the sun for more than twenty minutes, its pretty much a moot point. You won't, however, find any incovered vinyl seats of any color on any car in Phoenix. Not on someone that's been here at least one summer! 'Seasoned' vets from the desert know that the sun is a caustic source of dangerous radiation. Anything left out in the sun that isn't rocks and sand will be eaten up, bit by bit. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Peter Scheu" Subject: RE: Source for stageweights Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:59:29 -0500 Organization: Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. Message-ID: In-reply-to: Shelly A Ford wrote: >Can anyone recommend a supplier for stageweights and sandbags? Thanks For counterweights, it depends upon the amount you are looking for. If you're looking for a large quantity (i.e. 1,000' s of lbs) I'd try: Concord Steel of Ohio Inc (800) 321-8027 1451 Buena Vista Ave NE Warren, OH 44483 You may need to provide them with a drawing of what you need, but they should be familiar with stage weights as they supply most of the large manufacturers and some dealers. If you need a smaller amount, you may be stuck going though stage rigging equipment dealers like Mr. Sapsis. For sandbags, try you local ROSCO dealer, or Syracuse Scenery & Stage Lighting. SSSL makes their own line of sandbags. Peter Scheu Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. www.scheuconsulting.com Tel: 315.422.9984 fax: 413.513.4966 >-----Original Message----- >From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf >Of >Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 12:32 PM >To: Stagecraft >Subject: Source for stageweights > > >For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > >--------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <90d9c9980601130959t55cad622o318ff6d47de00a06 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:59:47 -0500 From: Scott Parker Subject: Re: Source for stageweights In-Reply-To: References: Where are you? Shipping cost will come to play when shopping for weight. My supplier gives me a break only when they have a truck coming nearby. Otherwise, it's cheaper to buy locally. Scott On 1/13/06, Shelly A Ford wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Can anyone recommend a supplier for stageweights and sandbags? > Thanks > -- Take care, Scott =09Scott C. Parker =09Professor/Technical Director =09Dept. of Performing Arts =09Dyson College of Arts and Sciences [at] Pace University =09Office/shipping: 41 Park Row, 1205F =09Mailing: 1 Pace Plaza =09New York, NY 10038 =09212-346-1423 Fax: 914-989-8425 ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <51fc00dfcf6a43b4e6158f6a7aa87f53 [at] dejazzd.com> From: Greg Bierly Subject: Re: Source for stageweights Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:04:56 -0500 > Can anyone recommend a supplier for stageweights and sandbags? > Thanks Stageweights - anyone LOCAL, shipping is gonna cost more than the weights in some cases. Sandbags (loaded) - see above Sandbags (unloaded) - Proadv.com, Sapsis-rigging.com, Proexp.com, etc.... fill in any vendor from this list. Sand - anyone LOCAL that can provide DRY sand. Greg Bierly Technical Director Hempfield HS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:24:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Source for stageweights From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: OK. First misconception. Trucking is NOT more expensive. In fact, if you get the trucking from the supplier it tends to make the overall cost LESS expensive. Second, going to a manufacturer when you do not have an account with them will result in a higher price. The manufacturers do not like doing onesies & twosies. Three . "If you need a smaller amount, you may be stuck going though stage rigging equipment dealers like Mr. Sapsis." STUCK????? WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY STUCK????? Four. Do NOT buy from a local steel mill. Not only will it cost you more but it will more than likely not be right. Counterweight should be a no brainer but it isn't. Anyone who has received a 15,000 lb shipment of weight that wasn't ground down or didn't have the notches cut right will attest to the fact that it becomes a royal pain in the butt to deal with. Five As far as "....fill in any vendor from this list." I would amend that to read....fill in any active vendor from this list. Bill Sapsis www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Join the Long Reach Long Riders on their 3rd annual cross country charity motorcycle ride. On 1/13/06 12:31 PM, "Shelly A Ford" wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Can anyone recommend a supplier for stageweights and sandbags? > Thanks And then Peter said.... For counterweights, it depends upon the amount you are looking for. If you're looking for a large quantity (i.e. 1,000' s of lbs) I'd try: Concord Steel of Ohio Inc (800) 321-8027 1451 Buena Vista Ave NE Warren, OH 44483 You may need to provide them with a drawing of what you need, but they should be familiar with stage weights as they supply most of the large manufacturers and some dealers. If you need a smaller amount, you may be stuck going though stage rigging equipment dealers like Mr. Sapsis. For sandbags, try you local ROSCO dealer, or Syracuse Scenery & Stage Lighting. SSSL makes their own line of sandbags. And then Scott said Where are you? Shipping cost will come to play when shopping for weight. My supplier gives me a break only when they have a truck coming nearby. Otherwise, it's cheaper to buy locally. Scott And then Greg said Stageweights - anyone LOCAL, shipping is gonna cost more than the weights in some cases. Sandbags (loaded) - see above Sandbags (unloaded) - Proadv.com, Sapsis-rigging.com, Proexp.com, etc.... fill in any vendor from this list. Sand - anyone LOCAL that can provide DRY sand. ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <13e.22d3218b.30f94ab3 [at] aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:25:55 EST Subject: Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant In a message dated 13/01/06 00:37:09 GMT Standard Time, idahoscenic [at] cableone.net writes: > While out with a tour last year a Socapex, while disconnected from > the fan out, and having just been dropped to the stage from a landed > truss, smoldered for who knows, not more than a couple minutes,(we > smelled SOMETHING) and then promptly burst into flames. We > "chemicalled" it and killed power to that pack. The resulting damage > was a very melted connector, approximately 30 inches of visibly damaged > multi and a 10inch burn mark on the stage deck where it had caught > fire. This happened all within 60 seconds in front of a dozen deck > hands and three roadies. Had circumstances been different? Was the > Deck Fireproofed? What worries me most about this incident is the HOW. A Socapex is a connector designed for heavy duty use. Was it correctly wired, in terms of connections and cable clamping? Why didn't the overcurrent protction trip? The post-mortem results are often informative, although from such a badly damaged connector you may find little of use. I once had a Strand Patt 23 catch fire, with flaming material dropping from it. You might think this impossible, seeing that the lantern is made from die-casting alloy, steel, brass, ceramic, and glass. What's to burn? Well, there is one small flammable component. Between the P28S lampholder and the lamp tray, there is a disc of Paxolin (SRBP). There had been a bad connection to the lampholder, which had deteriorated so far as to establish a maintained arc. The brass connection had melted. The reason the overcurrent protection had not tripped was that the lamp filament was still in series with the arc, limiting the current. The time scale of the event causes me little surprise. First, you have to notice something wrong; next, analyse it to see what is happening: then, decide on appropriate action: lastly, take it. You are all to be complimented on your speed. The time it takes for a minor fire to turn into a major one is small. The advice we have is: "If it is not under control inside two minutes, send for the fire team, and evacuate.". All our House staff and stage crew have some training in fire procedures, sketchy at times, since I have had to do it myself on occasion. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-ID: <59812.208.215.238.2.1137177077.squirrel [at] webmail5.pair.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:31:17 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Followspot Boomerang From: "Mitch Hefter" Reply-To: stagecraft02 [at] DesignRelief.com June Abernathy wrote: > > Of course, anyone can ignore any "standard", and do > what they will, if the standard in question is a > recommendation and not a law, or is just plain > unenforceable, as in the case of the boomerang. The > problem I see with not contesting such a "recommended > standard" is that there is the potential for students > and educators to see it and assume that it is, indeed, > the industry standard, and teach accordingly. > > > If someone is going to go to the trouble to write a > standard, whether it be recommended or required, > enforceable or not, I think it behooves them to > research as best they can what the current "standard" > is. Absolutely . Part of the research is why this Recommended Practice has had several public reviews and is going through another one right now. > June, please make sure you send your comments to USITT. Also, anyone else who has comments on this subject or any other parts of the document. There is no restriction on anyone participating, other than using the form that you can download with the draft document. http://www.usitt.org/standards/UsittRP-2v5.html If enough people make strong, reasoned arguments such as June has done, then a change is possible. Please participate ! . . . ------------------------------------- Mitch Hefter Member USITT Standards Committee Office: Entertainment Technology / a Division of the Genlyte Group mhefter [at] genlyte.com +1-214/ 647-7880 x 7967 (Direct 214/ 647-7967) +1-214/ 647-4738 Fax http://www.etdimming.com ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <2e2.865647.30f94d73 [at] aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:37:39 EST Subject: Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant In a message dated 13/01/06 00:57:23 GMT Standard Time, MissWisc [at] aol.com writes: > Maia makes an excellent point.. it's flame RETARDED not proofed. The idea is > > to make it possible to get the people out so we do not have another > Iriquois > disaster. (Theatre fire in downtown Chicago appx 100 years ago where over > 600 people died.) Indeed. I was about to make the same post. > > I've also seen "smoulders" caused by ellipsoidals getting too close to soft > > goods. Don't think that just because something has been flame retarded, that > > it'll never burn, but the fact it does a good job of slowing down the > process > is well worth the small added expense of using the stuff. What you are doing is buying time to evacuate the audience. The classic response to a fire on stage is to drop the safety curtain, and open the roof vents. This will, if the fire has taken hold, turn the stage area into a furnace. No matter, the auidience has had time to get out. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42890.208.215.238.2.1137177733.squirrel [at] webmail5.pair.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:42:13 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: diy multicable? From: "Mitch Hefter" Reply-To: stagecraft02 [at] DesignRelief.com Christopher K. Nimm wrote: > Next question: awhile back someone asked about using a multiple conductor > cable (I think that's what it's called) to easily install additional > permanent circuits on a box boom position. The consensus seemed to be > that > going with permamently-installed conduit was the better idea, > but it got me thinking. Is it plausible to build a Socopex-like > breakout cable with wire, flexible conduit and connectors? Would that > be absolutely forbidden by the NEC? It seems like a good idea to me, > but maybe it's just because I have a large instrument-circuiting job > ahead of me. > You can. Key portions from the 2005 NEC (you have to look at more than just these parts): 520.67 Multipole Branch-Circuit Cable Connectors Multipole branch-circuit cable connectors, male and female, for flexible conductors shall be constructed so that tension on the cord or cable is not transmitted to the connections. The female half shall be attached to the load end of the power supply cord or cable. The connector shall be rated in amperes and designed so that differently rated devices cannot be connected together; however, a 20-ampere T-slot receptacle shall be permitted to accept a 15-ampere attachment plug of the same voltage rating. Alternating-current multipole connectors shall be polarized and comply with 406.6 and 406.9. FPN: See 400.10 for pull at terminals. 520.68 Conductors for Portables (A) Conductor Type (1) General Flexible conductors, including cable extensions, used to supply portable stage equipment shall be listed extra-hard usage cords or cables. . . . (4) Breakouts Listed, hard usage (junior hard service) cords shall be permitted in breakout assemblies where all of the following conditions are met: (1) The cords are utilized to connect between a single multipole connector containing two or more branch circuits and multiple 2-pole, 3-wire connectors. (2) The longest cord in the breakout assembly does not exceed 6.0 m (20 ft). (3) The breakout assembly is protected from physical damage by attachment over its entire length to a pipe, truss, tower, scaffold, or other substantial support structure. (4) All branch circuits feeding the breakout assembly are protected by overcurrent devices rated at not over 20 amperes. ============ Note the length restriction f you use the junior hard service cord (e.g., SJO). Again, you have to look at more than just these parts of the Code. And work with your Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ). . . . ------------------------------------- Mitch Hefter Member NEC Panel 15 Office: Entertainment Technology / a Division of the Genlyte Group mhefter [at] genlyte.com http://www.etdimming.com ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <27d.404fe69.30f95045 [at] aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:49:41 EST Subject: Re: Flame proofing In a message dated 13/01/06 16:07:38 GMT Standard Time, b_ricie [at] yahoo.com writes: > I think that it all depends on the exact optics.<< > > Has anyone ever lit a cigarette with a source 4 10 > degree lens and the sun? It happens quick. True, but the sun's IR output is higher than that of a source 4. Myself, I used to use the hot air guns used for heat shrink sleeving. And a hot air paint stripper will get a barbecue going in jig time. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-ID: <59979.208.215.238.2.1137178385.squirrel [at] webmail6.pair.com> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:53:05 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: diy multicable? From: "Mitch Hefter" Reply-To: stagecraft02 [at] DesignRelief.com Please forgive me if this is a second posting, and if so, ignore the first - it wasn't done yet. --------------------------- Chris Nimm wrote: > Next question: awhile back someone asked about using a multiple conductor > cable (I think that's what it's called) to easily install additional > permanent circuits on a box boom position. The consensus seemed to be > that going with permamently-installed conduit was the better idea, but > it got me thinking. Is it plausible to build a Socopex-like breakout > cable with wire, flexible conduit and connectors? Would that be > absolutely forbidden by the NEC? It seems like a good idea to me, but > maybe it's just because I have a > large instrument-circuiting job ahead of me. > Yes, but now with flexible conduit and wire. See the following key portions of the 2005 NEC (you have to look at more than just this): 520.67 Multipole Branch-Circuit Cable Connectors Multipole branch-circuit cable connectors, male and female, for flexible conductors shall be constructed so that tension on the cord or cable is not transmitted to the connections. The female half shall be attached to the load end of the power supply cord or cable. The connector shall be rated in amperes and designed so that differently rated devices cannot be connected together; however, a 20-ampere T-slot receptacle shall be permitted to accept a 15-ampere attachment plug of the same voltage rating. Alternating-current multipole connectors shall be polarized and comply with 406.6 and 406.9. FPN: See 400.10 for pull at terminals. 520.68 Conductors for Portables (A) Conductor Type (1) General Flexible conductors, including cable extensions, used to supply portable stage equipment shall be listed extra-hard usage cords or cables. . . . (4) Breakouts Listed, hard usage (junior hard service) cords shall be permitted in breakout assemblies where all of the following conditions are met: (1) The cords are utilized to connect between a single multipole connector containing two or more branch circuits and multiple 2-pole, 3-wire connectors. (2) The longest cord in the breakout assembly does not exceed 6.0 m (20 ft). (3) The breakout assembly is protected from physical damage by attachment over its entire length to a pipe, truss, tower, scaffold, or other substantial support structure. (4) All branch circuits feeding the breakout assembly are protected by overcurrent devices rated at not over 20 amperes. ====== Note the length restrictions when using junior hard service cord (e.g., SJO). Again, you have to look at more than just these parts of the NEC, and work with your local Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ). . . . ------------------------------------- Mitch Hefter Member NEC Panel 15 Office: Entertainment Technology / a Division of the Genlyte Group mhefter [at] genlyte.com http://www.etdimming.com ------------------------------ Message-Id: <200601131859.k0DIx3Xb128170 [at] f05n03.cac.psu.edu> From: "Robert Napoli" Subject: Beauty Queen Leenane Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:01:47 -0500 Have any of you done the boiling oil poured over the hand gag in Beauty Queen? The problem I can't solve is how to "heat" the oil so it "smokes" and then pour it over the actor's hand as if to scald them. Multiple casting of that character has been ruled out by the director. Rob Napoli TD Penn State Berks Campus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:12:16 -0500 From: Stephen Litterst Subject: Re: Beauty Queen Leenane In-reply-to: Message-id: <43C7FB90.6030101 [at] ithaca.edu> Organization: IC-Dept. of Theatre Arts References: Robert Napoli wrote: > --------------------------------------------------- > > Have any of you done the boiling oil poured over the hand gag in Beauty > Queen? > The problem I can't solve is how to "heat" the oil so it "smokes" and then > pour it over the actor's hand as if to scald them. Multiple casting of that > character has been ruled out by the director. How visible is the effect to the audience? Could you make the pot "smoke" and then pour room temp oil over the actor? Steve L. -- Stephen C. Litterst Technical Supervisor Ithaca College Dept. of Theatre Arts 607/274-3947 slitterst [at] ithaca.edu ------------------------------ Message-ID: <006301c61877$b2eb7cb0$6401a8c0 [at] amd2200> From: "Idaho Scenic and Rigging" References: Subject: Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:29:40 -0700 As a result of this incident I now casually note the exact locations of the fire extinguishers when I walk into a venue. Ya just never know. Just by the mention of this I hope others will do the same, with the heed of the "two minute" rule Frank mentioned. To my knowledge, no autopsy was performed. It was sent back to the shop... for repair. Robert Riddle Will Disagree for the Sake of Discussion Will Discuss for the Sake of Learning ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Stagecraft" Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 11:25 AM Subject: Re: Scenery and Flame Retardant > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 13/01/06 00:37:09 GMT Standard Time, > idahoscenic [at] cableone.net writes: > > > While out with a tour last year a Socapex, while disconnected from > > the fan out, and having just been dropped to the stage from a landed > > truss, smoldered for who knows, not more than a couple minutes,(we > > smelled SOMETHING) and then promptly burst into flames. We > > "chemicalled" it and killed power to that pack. The resulting damage > > was a very melted connector, approximately 30 inches of visibly damaged > > multi and a 10inch burn mark on the stage deck where it had caught > > fire. This happened all within 60 seconds in front of a dozen deck > > hands and three roadies. Had circumstances been different? Was the > > Deck Fireproofed? > > What worries me most about this incident is the HOW. A Socapex is a connector > designed for heavy duty use. Was it correctly wired, in terms of connections > and cable clamping? Why didn't the overcurrent protction trip? The post-mortem > results are often informative, although from such a badly damaged connector > you may find little of use. > > I once had a Strand Patt 23 catch fire, with flaming material dropping from > it. You might think this impossible, seeing that the lantern is made from > die-casting alloy, steel, brass, ceramic, and glass. What's to burn? Well, there is > one small flammable component. Between the P28S lampholder and the lamp tray, > there is a disc of Paxolin (SRBP). There had been a bad connection to the > lampholder, which had deteriorated so far as to establish a maintained arc. The > brass connection had melted. The reason the overcurrent protection had not > tripped was that the lamp filament was still in series with the arc, limiting the > current. > > The time scale of the event causes me little surprise. First, you have to > notice something wrong; next, analyse it to see what is happening: then, decide > on appropriate action: lastly, take it. You are all to be complimented on your > speed. The time it takes for a minor fire to turn into a major one is small. > The advice we have is: "If it is not under control inside two minutes, send for > the fire team, and evacuate.". All our House staff and stage crew have some > training in fire procedures, sketchy at times, since I have had to do it myself > on occasion. > > > Frank Wood ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Peter Scheu" Subject: RE: Source for stageweights Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:37:30 -0500 Organization: Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. Message-ID: In-reply-to: Bill Sapsis wrote: > STUCK????? WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY STUCK????? ...ummm, I mean... Umm... limited to... Sorry :-( Enjoy Dallas without me ;-P Peter Scheu Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. www.scheuconsulting.com Tel: 315.422.9984 fax: 413.513.4966 ------------------------------ Message-ID: <43C8044F.3060009 [at] peak.org> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:49:35 -0800 From: Pat Kight Subject: Re: Beauty Queen Leenane References: In-Reply-To: Robert Napoli wrote: > Have any of you done the boiling oil poured over the hand gag in Beauty > Queen? > The problem I can't solve is how to "heat" the oil so it "smokes" and then > pour it over the actor's hand as if to scald them. Multiple casting of that > character has been ruled out by the director. I haven't done the effect, but I've heated a lot of oil to the boiling point, and as a rule, it doesn't emit smoke or steam, at least not until you start frying food in it. I'd call this a job for acting. But when directors get ideas stuck in their heads, it can be hard to shake them loose. -- Pat Kight kightp [at] peak.org ------------------------------ Message-Id: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:55:30 -0500 From: "Jeffrey Kanyuck" Subject: Union Dealings Hello everyone, Hope you all had good holidays. Here's my question for you: When you hire a person from the union how do you pay the minimum hours? Do you Pay a minimum for the day and then plus any hours worked over that? OR do you pay a minimum for each thing. 4 hrs for Load-in, another 4 hrs for Show and another 4 hours for Load-out? Please feel free to contact me off list. Also, include information as to what are of the world you are in. The reason I'm asking is the union in this area is demanding 4 hrs min for EACH specific part of load-in, show and load-out. I am a member of IATSE (a different local from the one I'm having to deal with here) and we would never dream of doing anything such as this as we'd consider it unethical. We do have a min for the DAY.. but, not each part. Jeff Kanyuck Harford Community College Bel Air, MD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:02:00 -0500 From: Stephen Litterst Subject: Re: Union Dealings In-reply-to: Message-id: <43C81548.2050108 [at] ithaca.edu> Organization: IC-Dept. of Theatre Arts References: Jeffrey Kanyuck wrote: > --------------------------------------------------- > When you hire a person from the union how do you pay the minimum hours? > > Do you Pay a minimum for the day and then plus any hours worked over > that? > OR do you pay a minimum for each thing. 4 hrs for Load-in, another 4 hrs > for Show and another 4 hours for Load-out? > Please feel free to contact me off list. > Also, include information as to what are of the world you are in. > The reason I'm asking is the union in this area is demanding 4 hrs min > for EACH specific part of load-in, show and load-out. > I am a member of IATSE (a different local from the one I'm having to > deal with here) and we would never dream of doing anything such as this > as we'd consider it unethical. We do have a min for the DAY.. but, not > each part. The only local I've worked with is Richmond (87, if my memory still works) but that's exactly how they did it. As both a presenter who hired union hands and as a union hand myself, it made sense. You're rarely hiring the whole crew for the whole gig. We would have a crew to load-in the show: guaranteed 4 hr minimum. There would be the show crew (often a subset of the load-in crew). I think there was a flat rate per performance in that local, with additional rates over a certain show call (3 hours I think, it's been a while). And a crew for loading-out the show who'd be paid a fixed rate for the out. Each part of the day has different needs. It makes sense to me to bill according to the needs of the call. Steve L. -- Stephen C. Litterst Technical Supervisor Ithaca College Dept. of Theatre Arts 607/274-3947 slitterst [at] ithaca.edu ------------------------------ Subject: RE: Union Dealings Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:10:04 -0800 Message-ID: <555928311F8B2943B65FC7197942C3B70538C10C [at] es1.bsdnet.wednet.edu> From: "Storms, Randy" Hi Jeff - This is in all likelihood spelled out in painstaking detail in = the venue's contract with IATSE. Each venue's contract may be a little = different. I've never been strong on the finer points of our contract, = but IIRC around here (Bellingham, WA) if workers are cut for 2 or more = hours they begin a new 4-hour minimum when they return. There are a few = excellent reasons for minimum calls, but that does nothing to make them = popular with those who pay the bills... Good Luck, -- r. Randy Storms rstorms [at] bham.wednet.edu -----Original Message----- Hello everyone, Hope you all had good holidays. Here's my question for you: When you hire a person from the union how do you pay the minimum hours?=20 Do you Pay a minimum for the day and then plus any hours worked over that?=20 OR do you pay a minimum for each thing. 4 hrs for Load-in, another 4 hrs for Show and another 4 hours for Load-out? Please feel free to contact me off list. ------------------------------ Subject: RE: Union Dealings Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:31:03 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Cyr, Dale" similar in spokane, wa. dale cyr Training Supervisor IATSE Local 93 Spokane, WA > -----Original Message----- > From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Storms, > Randy > I've never been strong on the finer points of our contract, > but IIRC around here (Bellingham, WA) if workers are cut for 2 or more > hours they begin a new 4-hour minimum when they return. > Randy Storms > rstorms [at] bham.wednet.edu ------------------------------ Message-ID: <00f201c61889$f8628470$6401a8c0 [at] amd2200> From: "Idaho Scenic and Rigging" References: Subject: Re: Union Dealings Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:40:27 -0700 Jeffrey: I am not a union member. I work shows all over the US as a PM, SM, Carpenter and Rigger. I get to work with all types of Union and Non-Union crews. At Venues I go into and their I.A.T.S.E. crew (and sometimes not I.A.T.S.E., just a negotiated contract with a Labor Unit): The standard, and I emphasize STANDARD, I run into: Load in 4 hrs min. Show Call same Load out same There are ALL KINDS of negotiated variations to each Venue and/ or Local. e.g.: 5hr penalty, after midnight, After Sunday Midnight, Minimum staff, 'tween calls, to name a few. OTOH When I am in town (base) working as a member of the local crew: I am on a four hour minimum for any and all of the above, for Union calls and non-union calls. 5 hr meal break penalty 90% enforced. 1/2 hour paid meal or 1 hour unpaid meal and some others when applicable. I work an "open day rate" only when I am contracted as a builder. And I should mention I am an independent contractor. I can and have negotiated pay right up to starting work. Robert Riddle Will Disagree for the Sake of Discussion Will Discuss for the Sake of Learning ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Kanyuck" To: "Stagecraft" Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 1:55 PM Subject: Union Dealings > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Hello everyone, > Hope you all had good holidays. > Here's my question for you: > > When you hire a person from the union how do you pay the minimum hours? > > Do you Pay a minimum for the day and then plus any hours worked over > that? > OR do you pay a minimum for each thing. 4 hrs for Load-in, another 4 hrs > for Show and another 4 hours for Load-out? > Please feel free to contact me off list. > Also, include information as to what are of the world you are in. > The reason I'm asking is the union in this area is demanding 4 hrs min > for EACH specific part of load-in, show and load-out. > I am a member of IATSE (a different local from the one I'm having to > deal with here) and we would never dream of doing anything such as this > as we'd consider it unethical. We do have a min for the DAY.. but, not > each part. > > Jeff Kanyuck > Harford Community College > Bel Air, MD ------------------------------ Message-Id: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:12:34 -0500 From: "Jeffrey Kanyuck" Subject: Re: Union Dealings Ok,.. but, here they give us the same person for load-in, show, and load-out. If their call starts at Noon for load-in, the show happens at 2pm, and the load-out happens at 3:30pm till 5pm when they walk out the door, with the same people ALL the way through, according to the union the crewmembers should each be paid for 12 hours of work for only 5 hours of actually being present and working, and never leaving the stage for more than 15 minutes for two breaks. Jeff Kanyuck >>> idahoscenic [at] cableone.net 01/13/06 4:40 PM >>> For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey: I am not a union member. I work shows all over the US as a PM, SM, Carpenter and Rigger. I get to work with all types of Union and Non-Union crews. At Venues I go into and their I.A.T.S.E. crew (and sometimes not I.A.T.S.E., just a negotiated contract with a Labor Unit): The standard, and I emphasize STANDARD, I run into: Load in 4 hrs min. Show Call same Load out same There are ALL KINDS of negotiated variations to each Venue and/ or Local. e.g.: 5hr penalty, after midnight, After Sunday Midnight, Minimum staff, 'tween calls, to name a few. OTOH When I am in town (base) working as a member of the local crew: I am on a four hour minimum for any and all of the above, for Union calls and non-union calls. 5 hr meal break penalty 90% enforced. 1/2 hour paid meal or 1 hour unpaid meal and some others when applicable. I work an "open day rate" only when I am contracted as a builder. And I should mention I am an independent contractor. I can and have negotiated pay right up to starting work. Robert Riddle Will Disagree for the Sake of Discussion Will Discuss for the Sake of Learning ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Kanyuck" To: "Stagecraft" Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 1:55 PM Subject: Union Dealings > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Hello everyone, > Hope you all had good holidays. > Here's my question for you: > > When you hire a person from the union how do you pay the minimum hours? > > Do you Pay a minimum for the day and then plus any hours worked over > that? > OR do you pay a minimum for each thing. 4 hrs for Load-in, another 4 hrs > for Show and another 4 hours for Load-out? > Please feel free to contact me off list. > Also, include information as to what are of the world you are in. > The reason I'm asking is the union in this area is demanding 4 hrs min > for EACH specific part of load-in, show and load-out. > I am a member of IATSE (a different local from the one I'm having to > deal with here) and we would never dream of doing anything such as this > as we'd consider it unethical. We do have a min for the DAY.. but, not > each part. > > Jeff Kanyuck > Harford Community College > Bel Air, MD ------------------------------ Message-ID: <52156.204.244.226.42.1137190404.squirrel [at] 204.244.226.42> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:13:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Union Dealings From: "Tom Heemskerk" > When you hire a person from the union how do you pay the minimum hours? > Some locals work on flat-rated calls (separate, fixed amounts for set-up, show, and strike), and some work on consecutive hours (for example, a 4-hour minimum, OT after 8 hours or after midnight, etc). I don't know which is more common, but most touring shows seem to have encountered both scenarios so I gather you don't have to look to far to see either. Both the locals I've worked in are "on hours", in alignment with the employment standards set out in the provincial labour laws. You should be able to get the specifics of a local's working rules and/or collective agreement from the local's Business Agent, if that's what you are after. th ------------------------------ Message-Id: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:14:31 -0500 From: "Jeffrey Kanyuck" Subject: Re: Union Dealings And yes, it had already been agreed to that if they had more than 2 hrs of being "broken" from the call they would get another 4hrs min. Jeff >>> rstorms [at] bham.wednet.edu 01/13/06 4:10 PM >>> For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Hi Jeff - This is in all likelihood spelled out in painstaking detail in the venue's contract with IATSE. Each venue's contract may be a little different. I've never been strong on the finer points of our contract, but IIRC around here (Bellingham, WA) if workers are cut for 2 or more hours they begin a new 4-hour minimum when they return. There are a few excellent reasons for minimum calls, but that does nothing to make them popular with those who pay the bills... Good Luck, -- r. Randy Storms rstorms [at] bham.wednet.edu -----Original Message----- Hello everyone, Hope you all had good holidays. Here's my question for you: When you hire a person from the union how do you pay the minimum hours? Do you Pay a minimum for the day and then plus any hours worked over that? OR do you pay a minimum for each thing. 4 hrs for Load-in, another 4 hrs for Show and another 4 hours for Load-out? Please feel free to contact me off list. ------------------------------ Subject: RE: Union Dealings Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:08:04 -0800 Message-ID: <555928311F8B2943B65FC7197942C3B70538C10D [at] es1.bsdnet.wednet.edu> From: "Storms, Randy" Well, *that* doesn't sound right..... -- r. Randy Storms rstorms [at] bham.wednet.edu -----Original Message----- If their call starts at Noon for load-in, the show happens at 2pm, and the load-out happens at 3:30pm till 5pm when they walk out the door, with the same people ALL the way through, according to the union the crewmembers should each be paid for 12 hours of work for only 5 hours of actually being present and working, and never leaving the stage for more than 15 minutes for two breaks. ------------------------------ Message-ID: <8231e7ea0601131546hf315ff7w9967ac40014228a1 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:46:51 -0500 From: SS Subject: Re: Union Dealings In-Reply-To: References: >>>>When you hire a person from the union how do you pay the minimum hours? Do you Pay a minimum for the day and then plus any hours worked over that? OR do you pay a minimum for each thing. 4 hrs for Load-in, another 4 = hrs for Show and another 4 hours for Load-out? Please feel free to contact me off list. Also, include information as to what are of the world you are in. The reason I'm asking is the union in this area is demanding 4 hrs min for EACH specific part of load-in, show and load-out. I am a member of IATSE (a different local from the one I'm having to deal with here) and we would never dream of doing anything such as this as we'd consider it unethical. We do have a min for the DAY.. but, not each part.<<<< My general dealings with IATSE crews have been more or less just like everyone else has mentioned. Typically there is/was a 4hr. min. Sometimes the same crew would be there for the whole gig (load-in, call, load-out), but an many occasions, different members would swap in/out, or they were cut. So 4hr. mins were the "standard". Occasionally there would be an 8hr min, or something similar, depending on the nature of said event. But that was usually worked out/specified in advance. All other "rules", like Rob already stated, usually still apply (examples: 5hr meal penalty, double or half-time over 8hrs, same for over midnight, Sundays/Holidays, etc, etc, etc.). Again, generalizing, most instances the pay scale was hourly. So, funny enough, in some cases you might run across an IA guy getting paid for a 12+ hr. day, although they have only worked 5 or 6, because they were on 3 different 4 hr. min calls. Based off what you're describing as your situation (noon in, 2pm show, 5pm out), whatever events you are working do not appear to be of a large nature . So I imagine the 12hr minimum day rate makes sense. Guess it just depends on the Local and the contract. - SS TTS EKU "Oh, and next Friday... is Hawaiian shirt day... so, you know, if you want to you can go ahead and wear a Hawaiian shirt and jeans. " --Bill Lumbergh ------------------------------ From: MissWisc [at] aol.com Message-ID: <279.324daf6.30f998d6 [at] aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:59:18 EST Subject: Re: Union Dealings Jeff - We can conjecture all we want, but it all boils down to the contract that IATSE has to provide those services for that employer. Like any contract, the terms are negotiated and agreed to by BOTH sides. Sounds like you came into it after that part was done. It IS typical (there is no IA "standard") to have in, show, and out be treated as 3 separate "calls" even though the same people are doing all of it and it's happening on the same day in contiguous hours. Some IA locals have a "daily" as opposed to a "call" rate, if so, often the daily rate is 8 hour minimm, but some places (the local you belong to, it seems) it's 4. What you consider "ethical" is moot. What is imporant is what's in the contract. <> When the contract is up for re-negotiation, bring this scenario to the bargaining table. Until then, budget for the 12 hours. Kristi ------------------------------ Message-Id: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:24:40 -0500 From: "Jeffrey Kanyuck" Subject: Re: Union Dealings AH.. there is NO contract. >>> MissWisc [at] aol.com 01/13/06 6:59 PM >>> For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Jeff - We can conjecture all we want, but it all boils down to the contract that IATSE has to provide those services for that employer. Like any contract, the terms are negotiated and agreed to by BOTH sides. Sounds like you came into it after that part was done. It IS typical (there is no IA "standard") to have in, show, and out be treated as 3 separate "calls" even though the same people are doing all of it and it's happening on the same day in contiguous hours. Some IA locals have a "daily" as opposed to a "call" rate, if so, often the daily rate is 8 hour minimm, but some places (the local you belong to, it seems) it's 4. What you consider "ethical" is moot. What is imporant is what's in the contract. <> When the contract is up for re-negotiation, bring this scenario to the bargaining table. Until then, budget for the 12 hours. Kristi ------------------------------ From: MissWisc [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:51:49 EST Subject: Re: Union Dealings In a message dated 1/13/2006 6:25:22 PM Central Standard Time, jkanyuck [at] Harford.edu writes: << AH.. there is NO contract. >> That's good news for you then. Go negotiate! Offer to make it all "Continuity calls before and after the show" payable at show rate or even a buck or two higher per hour and see if they bite. Ask if the local has "Standard work terms" or something to that effect. We have that here for "new employers" for whom negotiations haven't had time to happen or who are using us for the first time/one time gig. Kristi ------------------------------ Message-ID: <43C85528.4070100 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:34:32 -0500 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: Union Dealings References:

In-Reply-To: SS wrote: > Based off what you're describing as your situation (noon in, 2pm show, > 5pm out), whatever events you are working do not appear to be of a > large nature . So I imagine the 12hr minimum day rate makes sense. Makes sense from what point of view? Are you suggesting that charging 12 hours for five hours of continuous work is sensible? To me, that's not sensible, that's greed. -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Message-ID: <43C86B16.6000206 [at] fuse.net> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:08:06 -0500 From: Stuart Wheaton Subject: Re: Union Dealings References: In-Reply-To: Jeffrey Kanyuck wrote: >> > AH.. there is NO contract. > > Well then, why are you bothering with union overcharges... Unless you are getting, or you require, the top drawer people, I'd think you could find cheaper labor of equal quality. Recruit a group of college students or other capable folks, pay them well, but not the extortion the union wants, and tell the union that if they ever feel like talking reasonably they can put in a competitive bid. For shows that take 5 hours start to finish you should have an easy time finding a decent call sheet, especially if you can pay a buck or two an hour more than union rates (for hours worked only) and treat them well. Heck, pay them for 8 hours and get the little jobs on your wish list done from 10 AM until the truck arrives. You still save money. Unions are great when the workers are being abused, but sadly, people who get power will eventually abuse it. Stuart ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: <1e1.4b9da26c.30f9c4c9 [at] aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:06:49 EST Subject: Re: Flaming arrows and Coleman fuel >Ok, ante up with what it really was and the MSDS sheet whereabouts. >This may prove beneficial for me. I'll have look again in our MSDS book at work for the particulars that our Safety Department unearthed. It is essentially manufactured as a solvent. A complication arises from the many different common names applied to various gas products used in lanterns and camp type stoves. If you Google on "Coleman fuel" you should find a web site regarding the international confusion over fuel names and formulas. One manufacturer, Calumet Lubricants Co., refers to Lantern Fuel (Coleman) as having the chemical name of Light Hydrotreated Distillate. Of special note, the formula is not the same as for so called white gas. Hence, Coleman makes duel fuel versions of their equipment to accommodate the differences. Steve Vanciel Orlando, FL ------------------------------ Message-ID: <43C86B59.6040600 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:09:13 -0500 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: Union Dealings References:

In-Reply-To: Stuart Wheaton wrote: > Unions are great when the workers are being abused, but sadly, people > who get power will eventually abuse it. Having worked as a production assistant on non-union film shoots (60-70 hours per week, for a paltry $150/wk - and the producers were planning to cut it back to $100/wk for the next film), I can greatly appreciate the need for unions. However, it seems that too many unions have forgotten that their purpose is to protect workers, not to extort as much as possible from the company. -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Message-ID: <012f01c618b9$ca92ea00$6401a8c0 [at] amd2200> From: "Idaho Scenic and Rigging" References: Subject: Re: Union Dealings Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:22:46 -0700 Jeff I have worked less than 5 hours for a 3 "call" event. some of us call it "sweet". I know that if those same promoters brought in grunt labor it would have taken twice the labor, twice the time, and a LOT of safety concerns, to get the job done. I do not condone IA's ripping shows off. Far be it, and I will tell it to there face. BUT: For the most part these guys and gals are Professionals. They know the stage, the safety, and the gear. enough said there. Yours sounds like a special case. With no contract, approach them with an open mind and a Fair Offer. then NEGOTIATE. Rob't ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Kanyuck" To: "Stagecraft" Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 3:12 PM Subject: Re: Union Dealings > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Ok,.. but, here they give us the same person for load-in, show, and > load-out. If their call starts at Noon for load-in, the show happens at > 2pm, and the load-out happens at 3:30pm till 5pm when they walk out the > door, with the same people ALL the way through, according to the union > the crewmembers should each be paid for 12 hours of work for only 5 > hours of actually being present and working, and never leaving the stage > for more than 15 minutes for two breaks. > Jeff Kanyuck > > >>> idahoscenic [at] cableone.net 01/13/06 4:40 PM >>> > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Jeffrey: > > I am not a union member. > I work shows all over the US as a PM, SM, Carpenter and Rigger. > I get to work with all types of Union and Non-Union crews. > At Venues I go into and their I.A.T.S.E. crew (and sometimes not > I.A.T.S.E., just a negotiated contract with a Labor Unit): > The standard, and I emphasize STANDARD, I run into: > > Load in 4 hrs min. > Show Call same > Load out same > > There are ALL KINDS of negotiated variations to each Venue and/ or > Local. > e.g.: 5hr penalty, after midnight, After Sunday Midnight, Minimum > staff, 'tween calls, to name a few. > > OTOH > When I am in town (base) working as a member of the local crew: > I am on a four hour minimum for any and all of the above, > for Union calls and non-union calls. > > 5 hr meal break penalty 90% enforced. > 1/2 hour paid meal or 1 hour unpaid meal > and some others when applicable. > > I work an "open day rate" only when I am contracted as a builder. > > > And I should mention I am an independent contractor. I can and have > negotiated pay right up to starting work. > Robert Riddle > Will Disagree for the Sake of Discussion > Will Discuss for the Sake of Learning > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeffrey Kanyuck" > To: "Stagecraft" > Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 1:55 PM > Subject: Union Dealings > > > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > Hello everyone, > > Hope you all had good holidays. > > Here's my question for you: > > > > When you hire a person from the union how do you pay the minimum > hours? > > > > Do you Pay a minimum for the day and then plus any hours worked over > > that? > > OR do you pay a minimum for each thing. 4 hrs for Load-in, another 4 > hrs > > for Show and another 4 hours for Load-out? > > Please feel free to contact me off list. > > Also, include information as to what are of the world you are in. > > The reason I'm asking is the union in this area is demanding 4 hrs min > > for EACH specific part of load-in, show and load-out. > > I am a member of IATSE (a different local from the one I'm having to > > deal with here) and we would never dream of doing anything such as > this > > as we'd consider it unethical. We do have a min for the DAY.. but, not > > each part. > > > > Jeff Kanyuck > > Harford Community College > > Bel Air, MD > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <013401c618ba$0f365340$6401a8c0 [at] amd2200> From: "Idaho Scenic and Rigging" References: Subject: Re: Flaming arrows and Coleman fuel Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:24:41 -0700 >>duel fuel versions say that three times fast thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Stagecraft" Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 8:06 PM Subject: Re: Flaming arrows and Coleman fuel > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > >Ok, ante up with what it really was and the MSDS sheet whereabouts. > >This may prove beneficial for me. > > I'll have look again in our MSDS book at work for the particulars that our > Safety Department unearthed. It is essentially manufactured as a solvent. > A complication arises from the many different common names applied to > various gas products used in lanterns and camp type stoves. > If you Google on "Coleman fuel" you should find a web site regarding the > international confusion over fuel names and formulas. > > One manufacturer, Calumet Lubricants Co., refers to Lantern Fuel (Coleman) > as having the chemical name of Light Hydrotreated Distillate. > > Of special note, the formula is not the same as for so called white gas. > Hence, Coleman makes duel fuel versions of their equipment to accommodate the > differences. > > Steve Vanciel > Orlando, FL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:42:40 -0500 From: Tony Kambic Subject: RE: Union Dealings In-reply-to: Message-id: <000001c618bc$91c3e2d0$09bc5743 [at] tony> Jeff & gang, The IATSE Unions that I have dealt with seem to be along the same pay scales others have mentioned. However, I have yet to find a substitute for an IATSE hand. They know what they are doing (To quote Rob't "They know the stage, the safety, and the gear. enough said there") and, opposed to a small college-age crew, you do not have to show them how a screwgun works. Bottom line is you pay for what you get...a union crew will get the job done on time & easy, but you'll pay a bundle for it. A non-union crew will need more attention (believe me...I've been on several) if the show is large & has complicated equipment. They may require extra stress on your part, but they will be cheaper in the long run. What do you need the crew for? If there is really nothing more than unloading a truck, unpacking a few cases, pressing some buttons, and vice-versa later, then a non-union crew may do. Call the union only if you feel you need professionals and/or have to according to contract. PLSN had a great interview with the IATSE head a few months ago. It puts their position in perspective. Anyone have a link? Tony Kambic Electrician/Technician, NY, NY (previously Cincinnati) > -----Original Message----- > From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Stuart > Wheaton > Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 10:08 PM > To: Stagecraft > Subject: Re: Union Dealings > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Jeffrey Kanyuck wrote: > >> > > AH.. there is NO contract. > > > > > > Well then, why are you bothering with union overcharges... > > Unless you are getting, or you require, the top drawer > people, I'd think you could find cheaper labor of equal quality. > > Recruit a group of college students or other capable folks, > pay them well, but not the extortion the union wants, and > tell the union that if they ever feel like talking > reasonably they can put in a competitive bid. > > For shows that take 5 hours start to finish you should have > an easy time finding a decent call sheet, especially if you > can pay a buck or two an hour more than union rates (for > hours worked only) and treat them well. Heck, pay them for > 8 hours and get the little jobs on your wish list done from > 10 AM until the truck arrives. You still save money. > > Unions are great when the workers are being abused, but > sadly, people who get power will eventually abuse it. > > Stuart ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: Carpentry/Paint Call Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:28:20 -0500 Message-ID: <002601c618c2$f30d3950$6701a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: The producer with whom I'm currently working needs someone at 10:30PM Sunday the 15th at the West End Theatre (86th St & West End Ave. in Manhattan) to paint the floor (about 30'x20') and (maybe) set up a 4'x8' platform and 6-8 masking flats. Call me at 917/238-7430. ================================= Jeffrey E. Salzberg, Lighting Designer http://www.jeffsalzberg.com 201/379-3138 (Home) 917/238-7430 (Cell) ------------------------------ From: "Thad Kramer" Subject: RE: stages aboard Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:29:34 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Hello all. I'm writing this reply from Hilo, Hawaii aboard Holland America Line's m/s Amsterdam. I am the Lighting tech on board. As for our shows, aboard our ship we have four cast shows that are fully produced -- sets, lighting, sound, and costumes. As for the other days on the cruises, we bring in guest entertainers. These folks are usually singers, musicians, or comedians with the occasional magician. More often then not these guest ents don't really have anything major beyond a costume and maybe a few props. It is up to the sound tech and myself to provide support for these acts. As for the rigging involved, our space is very short. Our theatre takes up only two decks, so we don't really have a fly space. So on the line sets that are not fixed the distance from the batten to the winch is very short so motion is minimized. However I might also mention that on this ship we do not fly anything in and out so all but one of these linesets has been permanently tied off. We don't really have major set changes either. Everything is either done with curtains that track on and off or through the use of our turntable. Everything on the turn table is bolted down to it so it can't move around. As for the motion of the ocean, the cast is mostly used to it so they just deal. However, last cruise we did have to cancel one of our cast shows half way through because the seas were so rough it became to dangerous for them to continue. As for me focusing lights... I spin the knobs on the Hog II. Its quite easy. ;-) Most of my rig is Varilite VL5s and VL6s. So its all automated. The conventionals that I have in the rig are permanently focused. They never change. Granted it is an interesting experience to be at the top of a ladder fixing a Varilite while the ship is moving. But all in all not anything that you can't get used to, and if the seas are really that bad, then it can wait. :-) Thad Kramer Lighting Tech, ms Amsterdam Holland America Line San Diego, California ------------------------------ From: "Thad Kramer" Subject: Re: stages aboard Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:29:34 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Kristi, Ports of call aren't always every two days. It took four sea days to get to Hawaii from San Diego. And its going to take almost a full week to get back from Tahiti later this month. :-P Now that we're here I've got five days of ports, but they are indeed sacred, and if I can get off I'd rather do that than stay on board fixing things. BTW just cause its big doesn't mean that the waves can't rock it around. Thad Kramer Lighting Tech, ms Amsterdam Holland America Line San Diego, California ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #652 *****************************