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X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 27967788; Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:51:15 -0800 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.2 required=5.0 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,BAYES_00,NO_RECEIVED,NO_RELAYS,TW_KN,TW_WH autolearn=no version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on prxy.net X-Spam-Level: X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #705 Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:49:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #705 1. Traveler track floor pulley by Michael L. Cristaldi 2. Re: How to drop a drop box. by Jim Hyslop 3. Re: Mackie sound boards by "Paul Schreiner" 4. Re: How to (cross a cable) drop a drop box. by "Idaho Scenic and Rigging" 5. Re: help - snow, exits and safety by "Bill Conner" 6. Re: How to (cross a cable) drop a drop box. by Dale Farmer 7. Re: circuit breaker by "Bill Conner" 8. Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! by "Bill Conner" 9. Re: How to drop a drop box by "Bill Conner" 10. Re: circuit breaker by Jerry Durand 11. re : twisting Hand lines by "Michael Powers" 12. Re: Strange Question by Judy Martel 13. Mackie Boards by Pgl87 [at] aol.com 14. Trap system design by "Bill Conner" 15. Re: Trap system design by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 16. Re: Trap system design by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 17. Re: Hale Center Theatre Accident by "Bill Conner" 18. Re: How to drop a drop box. by "Jim at TheatreWireless.com" 19. Re: Mackie sound boards by Jim Hyslop 20. Re: Trap system design by "Bill Conner" 21. Re: How to drop a drop box. by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 22. Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! by Stephen Litterst 23. Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! by Stephen Litterst 24. Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! by Stephen Litterst 25. Re: Mackie sound boards by megironda [at] att.net (Gerry G.) 26. Re: How to drop a drop box by SS 27. Re: Conversion of gym to theatre space by SS 28. Re: Major Corporation (brand name) update by SS 29. Re: Tech riders for small touring groups by SS 30. funky new theaters, traveler lines by Jim Dougherty 31. Re: Mackie sound boards by "Fritz, Barry L" 32. Re: funky new theaters, traveler lines by Jerry Durand 33. Re: How to (cross a cable) drop a drop box. by "JUSTIN DAVID BENNETT" 34. Re: Trap system design by SS 35. Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! by SS 36. Re: Mackie sound boards by SS 37. Rant (was: Hanging Choir Mics & Snow, Exit, Safety) by SS 38. Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! by "Tony Deeming" 39. Re: Mackie sound boards by Shawn Deiger 40. Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! by Bruce Purdy 41. Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! by "JUSTIN DAVID BENNETT" 42. Express (Was: Designers and consultants - A RANT!) by Bruce Purdy 43. Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! by SS 44. Re: Tech riders for touring groups by CB 45. Re: Tech riders for touring groups by CB 46. Re: Express (Was: Designers and consultants - A RANT!) by Steve Bailey 47. help - snow, exits and safety by CB 48. Re: Designers and consultants by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 49. Re: Mackie sound boards (was: Tech riders for small touring groups) by CB 50. Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 51. Re: Designers and consultants by CB 52. Re: Designers and consultants by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 53. Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 54. Re: MSDS Binders by CB 55. Re: circuit breaker by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 56. Re: Designers and consultants by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 57. Re: circuit breaker by Dale Farmer 58. Re: Mackie sound boards by Greg Bierly 59. Re: Mackie sound boards by Greg Bierly 60. Re: circuit breaker by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 61. Re: Rant (was: Hanging Choir Mics & Snow, Exit, Safety) by "Paul Schreiner" 62. Re: Mackie sound boards by "Paul Schreiner" 63. Re: Mackie sound boards by "Paul Schreiner" 64. by "H-High-S (Ferreira, Jr. - home)" 65. Re: circuit breaker by Dale Farmer 66. Re: How to (cross a cable) drop a drop box. by "Mat Goebel" *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <32324d6a90021446529112f22e7db9ed [at] staldi.org> From: Michael L. Cristaldi Subject: Traveler track floor pulley Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 08:07:47 -0500 Hi, Can you tail down from the system pipe to secure the floor block? I've had success with that. One easy method if weight is not a huge concern is to use bottom pipe vertically, U bolted to the batten and then tech screwed to the floor pulley. This also allows you to stretch the system tighter than you could with a sandbag. Hope that helps, staldi ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4400663E.40602 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 09:14:22 -0500 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: How to drop a drop box. References:

In-Reply-To: Bill Nelson wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > >>If you had to run them parallel, what's the minimum distance you'd put >>between the DMX and the power lines? Or does that depend on the number >>of lines, load, etc? > > > As far away as possible. In practice, this usually means running power on > one side of the batten pipe and the data cables on the other. Oh, so we're talking inches, not feet or yards (although more would be better, obviously ;-) Good to know, thanks. Somewhere in the fog of my memory, I seem to recall hearing the same thing about sound and power cables (especially cables coming out of dimmer racks). If memory serves, if you have to cross the cables, it's best to cross them at right angles to reduce interference. Would the same principle apply with DMX? -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 09:55:18 -0500 From: "Paul Schreiner" Subject: Re: Mackie sound boards In-Reply-To: References:

> > What are people using these days? I'm thinking I'm about to have to > > start looking around.. > > With a lot of finagling I got my Yamaha M7CL-32 last Tuesday. Depends on what you're doing with it. If most of your workload is set cues and playback, digital is one way to go...but I don't recommend digital consoles when most of the workload is live reinforcement on one-offs. Once upon a time I fell in love with a 16-channel Soundcraft Delta mixer I bought used off someone on this list (back in--eek!--late 1997). Since then, they've always been my personal first choice, and I haven't been disappointed. I'd love to get a Series Two for the space I'm in now. Had a 32x8 at my last job, and...well, I'm all verklempt just thinking about it. :) FWIW, the Mackie I'm stuck with now is also showing its age (which in reality isn't all that old). Crosstalk, intermittent signal on some channels, noise on others, "loose" faders, and a somewhat unintuitive interface...nothing about the Mackies I've seen screams "professional construction." Bells and whistles, yes...but in trying to cut enough corners to get the bells and whistles cheap enough for the garage band crowd, the product no longer holds up to the standards or workload I'd call professional. I hear they make good boat anchors, though... ------------------------------ Message-ID: <003401c63a1b$f88372d0$6401a8c0 [at] amd2200> From: "Idaho Scenic and Rigging" References:

Subject: Re: How to (cross a cable) drop a drop box. Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 07:58:42 -0700 EMI- it's everywhere, it's everywhere. The noise boys I work with always prefer to have a separate power feed from the squints on separate sides of the stage. It's not just because they're special. Under Generator Power, lights and sound each get their own. Robert Riddle Will Disagree for the Sake of Discussion Will Discuss for the Sake of Learning > Somewhere in the fog of my memory, I seem to recall hearing the same > thing about sound and power cables (especially cables coming out of > dimmer racks). If memory serves, if you have to cross the cables, it's > best to cross them at right angles to reduce interference. Would the > same principle apply with DMX? > > -- > Jim Hyslop > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <004201c63a22$c61d5cf0$6501a8c0 [at] BCA1> Reply-To: "Bill Conner" From: "Bill Conner" Subject: re: help - snow, exits and safety Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 09:47:24 -0600 The means of egress are required to be maintained to the public way. Literally, this means kept clear and illuminated. Building codes require this as well as fire codes. It could be argued that the deletion of the snow guards is noncompliant with the code. Make the case that this is a serious issue, it violates most codes, and if someone is injured it will cost a lot more than fixing it. Call the insurance company if you want action - they care. I am constantly amazed how often staff will adapt rather than get something fixed. The number of stories I've heard about posting ushers at a trip hazard to warn and catch people is amazing - just fix the damn problem. Bill C. ------------------------------ Message-ID: <44007DB8.1060505 [at] cybercom.net> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:54:32 -0500 From: Dale Farmer Organization: I'm working on that.... Subject: Re: How to (cross a cable) drop a drop box. References:

In-Reply-To: Idaho Scenic and Rigging wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > EMI- it's everywhere, it's everywhere. > > The noise boys I work with always prefer to have a separate power feed > from the squints on separate sides of the stage. It's not just because > they're special. > Under Generator Power, lights and sound each get their own. > > > Robert Riddle > Will Disagree for the Sake of Discussion > Will Discuss for the Sake of Learning > > >> Somewhere in the fog of my memory, I seem to recall hearing the same >> thing about sound and power cables (especially cables coming out of >> dimmer racks). If memory serves, if you have to cross the cables, it's >> best to cross them at right angles to reduce interference. Would the >> same principle apply with DMX? >> >> -- >> Jim Hyslop Just like all those audio snakes that I see with power cords taped to them to power the FOH position? Lots of BS and misplaced effort out there. If you are building a recording or broadcast studio, then separating the power from the data is a good thing, it gives you that extra ten dB of headroom for when you are recording that pianissimo violin solo. RS 485, which is the underlying data transmission protocol that DMX runs over, was designed for data transmission in industrial environments. As long as your DMX cables are actually DMX cables and they are used within their specifications, the signal will get through just fine. The noise problems folks see are usually when someone uses a microphone cable instead of a proper DMX cable, or the DMX interface used is a low end rs485 chip set that isn't rated to run at the data rate that DMX uses. There is an awful lot of FUD out there about electrical power interfering with signals. Most of these problems are not issues of RFI or EMI, but of ground loop currents that show up in equipment with the so called "Pin one problem", which is a design fault. Yes, dimmers do put a lot of hash and trash back into the power feeds, but most of the power supplies that are put into electronic equipment today put just as much if not more back into the power lines. It's a normal thing, and the power supply is supposed to cope with that stuff. If the gear can't cope with moderately dirty power, then it isn't roadworthy. --Dale ------------------------------ Message-ID: <004701c63a24$10c7c8c0$6501a8c0 [at] BCA1> Reply-To: "Bill Conner" From: "Bill Conner" Subject: Re: circuit breaker Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 09:56:39 -0600 Jerry posted: "There is a formula for how many outlets can be on one breaker, it depends on where they are and other factors." "This leads to an interesting problem, the main breaker here (mains feed) is calculated from a formula of all the breakers in the box." Based on the NEC I disagree. Circuit breakers (and modern dimmers) are not loads. Service size and breaker size is based primarily on load, not number of breakers or number of receptacles. True in houses and true in theatres. (Sound stages have other rules as I recall.) Local jurisdictions may amend the NEC. On projects for which I design the lighting system, I prepare a schedule that shows how many lights of what size in each circuit and that is the basis on which the feeder is sized. I do usually schedule more units than are purchased initially and don't de-rate for them being dimmed - too easy to say 1 to forever at full. I got a call yesterday asking for an electrical engineer who could tell them what size feeder they needed for a new dimmer system and a company switch. I explained the engineer needs to know what the load is, not the capacity of the dimmers or company switch. In a house, you've got to provide service for the known loads (ac, heat, pumps, appliances) and so much per sq ft for other loads (slight simplification) but if you want an outlet every foot or every twelve feet - it doesn't change the number of breakers required (except in those jurisdictions that amend the NEC.) Bill ------------------------------ Message-ID: <004e01c63a24$e22b73d0$6501a8c0 [at] BCA1> Reply-To: "Bill Conner" From: "Bill Conner" Subject: Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:02:30 -0600 Bruce posted: "The problem isn't that I think the Strand is a bad board, it's just too much board for this situation. A much simpler, more intuitive board would have made much more sense here." For someone like me that learned on piano boards, the Strand consoles have always been intuitive. I can still walk in and run one. Can't do that with ETC or anyone else's - well maybe ET's Marquee. But I can't stand MACs either and love PC's. It's probably more what you learned first than one being better than the other - unless you count popularity bred from great marketing as better. Heck, lot's of people drink Budweiser and some even like it. Marketing is everything. Trying to acknowledge this in my work, I more and more try to separate out the main console and allow the user to buy that based on preference. Hopefully the console will be replaced several times before the system and thankfully it is possible to design a lighting control network and infrastructure that will support nearly any console. ACN will only make that even easier - even if not in my lifetime. Bill ------------------------------ Message-ID: <004f01c63a24$f8ec0990$6501a8c0 [at] BCA1> Reply-To: "Bill Conner" From: "Bill Conner" Subject: Re: How to drop a drop box Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:03:08 -0600 No one has mentioned the rig I have seen a few time - basically a whole system of block and falls with the top block on a beam and trolley above the pin rail. 6-10 rigs, easily moved up and down stage, permanent weight on the lower block. Fairly convenient for houses with made up electrics instead of fixed or even for heavy drop boxes and tall grids. Bill C. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.0.20060225080515.01f722c0 [at] interstellar.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 08:06:43 -0800 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: circuit breaker In-Reply-To: References: At 07:56 AM 2/25/2006, you wrote: >(except in those jurisdictions that amend the NEC.) Just out of curiosity, do any jurisdictions use the latest NEC? I know all the ones I've seen specify a particular year NEC code. I assume this gets updated from time to time...or not. -- Jerry Durand, Durand Interstellar, Inc. www.interstellar.com 219 Oak Wood Way, Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 ------------------------------ Message-ID: <58f67b0f0602250811h61c7b276yd337924357a2ca6a [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:11:50 -0600 From: "Michael Powers" Subject: re : twisting Hand lines "Peter Scheu" writes: << .....BTW - and changing topics - does anyone have a "foolproof" method = of preventing the twist in traveler track handlines? ......... >> Peter, What I have done when this became a problem was to "re-manufacture"=20 the live end pulley. What I did was to separate the two sheaves and using a piece of uni strut about 30" long, extend the track and mount the "opening" line sheave at the off stage end. There is still a sand bag weighted tension sheave at the bottom of the loop but now the operating lines form a tall skinny triangle roughly 30" wide stage left/right at the top, 20' along the two sides (depending of course on how high the traveler curtain is.). This has two advantages. First it solves the twist problem by separating the lines. Second, especially if you have directionally challenged curtain pullers, instead of having the operating lines upstage/downstage of each other, it places the the line you pull to get the curtain "off" or open on the "off" stage side. The line that takes the curtain "on" or closing, is on the "on" stage side. -- Michael Michael Powers Director of Operations Central Lighting & Equipment 1720 Fuller Rd. Suite 150 West Des Moines Iowa 50265 515-277-4190 877-977-4190 Fax 515-277-2295 515-557-0178 cell michael [at] clelights.com ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: From: Judy Martel Subject: Re: Strange Question Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:20:17 -0600 On Feb 22, 2006, at 1:22 PM, Maurice Moe Conn wrote: > I just had a visit from a Biology Professor, and he asked me if I > new any plays that made reference to Bedbugs. I can't say I know > any right off the top of my head. Anyone outthere know of any? I just saw "The Good Doctor" last night at my daughter's high school, and bedbugs were mentioned in the first scene. Judy Martel ------------------------------ From: Pgl87 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <209.130ee366.3131dd72 [at] aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 11:18:58 EST Subject: Mackie Boards On Fri, 24 Feb 2006, Jim Hyslop wrote: > Care to fill in this non-skweek on why Mackie boards are bad? Our > theatre has one, and we're having problems with it, so your post got me > to thinking maybe it's the brand. To be brutally honest, you get what you pay for. Some of the Mackie products are better than others, the Onyx large format desks have a much better reputation than the SR series consoles which are many times better than the CFX mixers(run!!) If you are looking to upgrade a little from an SR32-4VLZ Pro, I would suggest going with something like an Allen&Heath GL2400-32 . which retails for about $2500. I am not a dealer of anything. Philip LaDue EPAC Audio Engineer RFL ------------------------------ Message-ID: <005701c63a27$658701c0$6501a8c0 [at] BCA1> Reply-To: "Bill Conner" From: "Bill Conner" Subject: Trap system design Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:20:30 -0600 I like to include trap rooms under stages when I can. They provide such interesting options for staging and design - always a theatrical surprise to see something lowered into the stage or a performer emerge from the floor. The ones I can often squeak in are upstage of the orchestra pit and maybe 9-10 feet upstage-downstage and 17-25 feet left to right. (Size based on a 4 X 8 or row of them and some room around the edge for sprinklers and work lights and a few plug boxes.) Question is, would you prefer a carefully built wood floor with all wood or easily removed/modified steel framing where the plan is you cut the hole you need and repair the floor after OR do you want lift out panels? And what would those panels be - typical portable platform tops like Stageright or SECOA honeycomb panels or site built panels? I prefer the cut as you need because of the short comings of permanent traps: gaps, seams, different feel and resiliency for dancers, possibly different sound from foot fall, compromises to get units light enough that don't need a machine to lift out, and enough additional cost to sometimes get the trap room cut from the project altogether. A hole with a few wood beams is a lot cheaper than a system with hardware and such. But then cutting a hole in the floor would deter some from using it. Thanks. Bill C. ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Cc: bill [at] bcaworld.com ('Bill Conner') Subject: RE: Trap system design Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 11:28:14 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c63a28$7ce604f0$6501a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > Question is, would you prefer a carefully built wood floor > with all wood or > easily removed/modified steel framing where the plan is you > cut the hole you > need and repair the floor after OR do you want lift out > panels? I want a floor that will present no surprises to dancers when it's covered with a Marley-type dance floor. ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Cc: bill [at] bcaworld.com ('Bill Conner') Subject: RE: Trap system design Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 11:29:07 -0500 Message-ID: <000101c63a28$9be24d00$6501a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > I like to include trap rooms under stages when I can. Do you provide access to stage circuits in the trap room? ------------------------------ Message-ID: <009101c63a2a$2db10090$6501a8c0 [at] BCA1> Reply-To: "Bill Conner" From: "Bill Conner" Subject: re: Hale Center Theatre Accident Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:40:25 -0600 You can read about the lift and see an mpg of it at the Gala site: http://www.galainfo.com/en/realizations/index.php3?Ord=&Reg=UUT (or go to their home page and click on "featured presentations & animations" and it is the first one.) Should they take this down from their site as a result of the accident, I saved the page and mpg. Bill C. ------------------------------ From: "Jim at TheatreWireless.com" Subject: RE: How to drop a drop box. Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 11:44:43 -0500 Message-ID: <001001c63a2a$c7a5d810$6500a8c0 [at] p3m866> In-Reply-To: I don't dispute anything in this thread -- avoiding interference is always a good thing and the suggested methods do work. But remember that DMX is a balanced data signal using the RS422/485 protocol. In general, any induced noise will be cancelled at the receiver. Since the overall signal level is fairly high (+/-5V at the transmitter, somewhat less by the time it makes through long lengths of wire) a balanced line is very effective for common-mode rejection of noise. It works best with a twisted pair. Induced noice is further attenuated before it reaches the twisted pair with a good shield. EMI decays at the square of the distance, so it doesn't take much added space to vastly reduce interference levels. Yes, crossing at right angles results in vastly less inductive interference than running cables along side one another for some distance. Most dmx problems are more likely to be solved with proper cable, connectors, and termination. My $0.02. Jim www.theatrewireless.com > > As far away as possible. In practice, this usually means > running power > > on one side of the batten pipe and the data cables on the other. > > Oh, so we're talking inches, not feet or yards (although more > would be better, obviously ;-) Good to know, thanks. > > Somewhere in the fog of my memory, I seem to recall hearing > the same thing about sound and power cables (especially > cables coming out of dimmer racks). If memory serves, if you > have to cross the cables, it's best to cross them at right > angles to reduce interference. Would the same principle apply > with DMX? ------------------------------ Message-ID: <440089D7.4010903 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 11:46:15 -0500 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: Mackie sound boards References:

In-Reply-To: Paul Schreiner wrote: > FWIW, the Mackie I'm stuck with now is also showing its age (which in > reality isn't all that old). Crosstalk, intermittent signal on some > channels, noise on others, "loose" faders, and a somewhat unintuitive > interface...nothing about the Mackies I've seen screams "professional > construction." Bells and whistles, yes...but in trying to cut enough > corners to get the bells and whistles cheap enough for the garage band > crowd, That makes sense. Ever read the manual? It is certainly aimed at the garage band crowd. > I hear they make good boat anchors, though... :-) One of the members of our group works for an A/V company, and they have an old (to them) 24 channel analog board (I don't remember the brand, but it's much better than Mackie) in their rental warehouse. The board's in great shape, but nobody wants it - everyone wants to rent digital. So the board sits there gathering dust (well, OK, the case is gathering dust :-). We're working on getting them to toss it in our direction when they finally get around to purging obsolete inventory. -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Message-ID: <00af01c63a2b$bb412010$6501a8c0 [at] BCA1> Reply-To: "Bill Conner" From: "Bill Conner" Cc: stagecraft [at] jeffsalzberg.com References: <000101c63a28$9be24d00$6501a8c0 [at] Dell> Subject: Re: Trap system design Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:51:32 -0600 Jeffrey asked: "Do you provide access to stage circuits in the trap room?" If you mean do I provide power including dimmed circuits, yes. Sometimes, if circuits are tight based on money, I will parallel these from the orchestra pit and or the 3-4 I put in the control room for I don't know what - Kodak Ektagraphics I suppose (think piano boards). And of course intercom and general power and, if I'm providing three phase in a company switch for motors, a cable path to that. I'd like domestic water and a drain - like a washer hookup - and if there is compressed air system, an outlet for that or at least the pipe to add an outlet. I don't always get everything. Jefferey also stated: "I want a floor that will present no surprises to dancers when it's covered with a Marley-type dance floor." This is why I like to build the floor continous and then cut and repair as needed. It is very difficult or impossible to construct a permanent trap that never telecopes through Marley between lift trucks, many coats of paint, effects with water, seasonal humidity and temperature changes, and so on. I don't like floor pockets either - run the cable from the edge or drop from the grid or poke up through the trap and repair. Gaps around lifts are bad enough. Bill C. ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: How to drop a drop box. Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 11:58:27 -0500 Message-ID: <000201c63a2c$b2c00ae0$6501a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: =20 > But remember that DMX is a balanced data signal using the=20 > RS422/485 protocol. ...Which triggers my need to vent. Recently, I decided that 4- 50' 3-pin DMX cables would be more useful = than 2- 100' cables, so I bought some connectors and went to work. When I checked polarity I discovered that my store-bought DMX cables had the = shield connected to pin #3, which means that I have to rebuild them all...and = not wanting to screw with that was the reason I bought them rather than made them in the first place. We now return to our regularly-scheduled programming.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:07:12 -0500 From: Stephen Litterst Subject: Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! In-reply-to: Message-id: <44008EC0.6060709 [at] ithaca.edu> References:

Bill Nelson wrote: > --------------------------------------------------- > The two thinks I don't like are 1) that they don't have any built in > effects, such as chases, flicker etc and 2) there isn't any way to program > an effect into a cue. Cue 'x' FX 'y' ENTER. And as far as built-in effects, the comparable ETC boards don't have that either. On any console you have to tell the board what channels are involved and what you want them to do. Apparently my mind is wired wrong because I find effect writing, editing and playback much easier on the Strand pallette line than on the ETC Express(ion) line. Steve L. -- Stephen Litterst Technical Supervisor Ithaca College, Theatre Arts 607.274.3947 slitterst [at] ithaca.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:09:57 -0500 From: Stephen Litterst Subject: Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! In-reply-to: Message-id: <44008F65.8070903 [at] ithaca.edu> References: Bruce Purdy wrote: > --------------------------------------------------- > Between this and the lack of flexibility in the design of the space, I > feel the high price tag equipment was a waste of taxpayers' money. From the frustration you've described, that's probably the case. But that would be the case with an ETC system, a Colortran system, or any other system. If there's no one around who knows how to use it, anything other than an on/off switch is too much. While I haven't seen the price tag for that system, I know when I bought my 300 console, it was thousands cheaper than a comparably equipped console from ETC. And believe you, me (how does one punctuate that expression?) I did the research. Steve L. -- Stephen Litterst Technical Supervisor Ithaca College, Theatre Arts 607.274.3947 slitterst [at] ithaca.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:21:23 -0500 From: Stephen Litterst Subject: Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! In-reply-to: Message-id: <44009213.6090808 [at] ithaca.edu> References: Bruce Purdy wrote: > --------------------------------------------------- > Whilst I would like to learn the board, what happens beyond this one-off > show? Who else in the school will work with it? There is no one that would > be interested in learning it. Various teachers just turn it on for a concert > or assembly, and turn it off afterwards! That's where my frustration lies. One of the things I like about that board is the flexibility of the panels. Depending on how generous you're feeling with your time, you could set up the submasters for the most likely uses worklight Band rehearsal Play rehearsal House lights full house lights 1/2 Etc Etc Then lock out all other functions of the board except those panels. Label the submasters clearly and then you've made the system more useful to the demands of the space. That's just my thoughts... Steve L. -- Stephen Litterst Technical Supervisor Ithaca College, Theatre Arts 607.274.3947 slitterst [at] ithaca.edu ------------------------------ From: megironda [at] att.net (Gerry G.) Subject: Re: Mackie sound boards Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:50:44 +0000 Message-Id: <022520061750.4841.440098F3000E1545000012E921603763160E0B02019D07090A03 [at] att.net> Around 20,000.00? Gerry G. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Greg Bierly > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > > What are people using these days? I'm thinking I'm about to have to > > start looking around.. > > With a lot of finagling I got my Yamaha M7CL-32 last Tuesday. It has > been hooked up and operational since this Tuesday. So far it is > wonderful. I know many of you are working on a mackie budget but I > can lock out everything but the podium mic volume slider or have the > full function of a digital console for the price of top of the line > analog console (not to mention the cost of a full rack of > compressors, eq's, and effects that I don't need to purchase). WOW! > If anyone is looking at one the learning curve is not bad. I pretty > much had it down in two 2 hour sessions. > > Greg Bierly > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <8231e7ea0602251048r612443d0tb6dc7244666d65f2 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 13:48:39 -0500 From: SS Subject: Re: How to drop a drop box In-Reply-To: References:

>>>>>You could re-run the cables off stage of your fly system pipes. Now that they're off stage of the pipes, you can drag them up and down stage at your leisure, directly offstage of the new electric pipe, secure the cable to a pin rail or other structure, then run the box out onto the pipe. Need to re-hang? Drop the cable and boxes on the floor, drag up or downstage, secure to rail or other structure, run out onto pipe.<<<<< We used this method in a house I worked for back in the day. Seemed the easiest way to go, for us at least, because we were doing change overs...like...every other day or so. Very little fuss involved in the long run. Just my .02. HTH. -SS TTS-EKU "I should be ashamed of this, I'm not, 'Cause I have tasted grapes. This smile, don't look. It's my bait, my words, the hook." --D.S. ------------------------------ Message-ID: <8231e7ea0602251120i11a54f20g87cc00dc6f4779b1 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 14:20:49 -0500 From: SS Subject: Re: Conversion of gym to theatre space In-Reply-To: References:

>>>>One handy trick one can do is to place the studio directly behind the stage, and make that wall an openable wall. This allows you to use all that space for backstage during a production, but use the spaces separately during other times.<<<< I'll second Dale's motion. A university I used to work for had this sort of set-up. It worked like a charm for the most part. It allowed for greater flexibility of the studio space, wherein we could do bigger shows (meaning bigger audience, meaning bigger draw, meaning bigger budgets :>) if we wanted. Just open the wall, and voila, instant larger theatre!! It was also convenient because it opened up the space to the second scene shop, and the metal shop. So loading in/striking scenery/supplies was a piece of pie! HTH. -SS TTS-EKU "I should be ashamed of this, I'm not, 'Cause I have tasted grapes. This smile, don't look. It's my bait, my words, the hook." --DS ------------------------------ Message-ID: <8231e7ea0602251144l307766b5tb657d4080ada8724 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 14:44:31 -0500 From: SS Subject: Re: Major Corporation (brand name) update In-Reply-To: References:

>>>>That's what makes this list so valuable, and why I waste so much time reading it!<<<< Ah, but is it really a WASTE if you are learning something? :) -SS TTS-EKU "I should be ashamed of this, I'm not, 'Cause I have tasted grapes. This smile, don't look. It's my bait, my words, the hook." --DS ------------------------------ Message-ID: <8231e7ea0602251150h70bc4f1er41ef11748735abd1 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 14:50:02 -0500 From: SS Subject: Re: Tech riders for small touring groups In-Reply-To: References: >>>>Why would you have a PSM running the light board? Obviously, you are in a non-union situation, to have such a job split be even possible, but it still seems odd. If you can't afford a PSM, a light board op, and a sound board op, why not have a PSM who stage manages, and a technician who runs the lights and sound.<<<< This scenario happens all the time. I've worked in bunches of IA and non IA houses who bring in small presentations/shows/tours with minimal cueing (and have zero budget!!), so the SM takes the dual role as board op. Heck, a small childrens theatre company (non AEA) I worked for umpteen years ago, had me wearing the "one for all ballcap" at times...TD, SM, Lights & Sound (even ended up on stage once when someone got sick!!!)...depending on the venue we were booked in. Sometimes we had the luxury of IA crews and "state of the art-ness", and other times, well...we ended up playing in some po-dunk high school in po-dunk USA, with no crew whatsoever. So, in agreeance with Paul's comments "like those of us on the list ...generally accommodating, friendly, and just wanting to get the job done (and done well) so they can take as little time as possible between curtain-down and down-time (and/or downing frosty adult beverages), whether I agreed with it or not, the job got done anyway. :) Just my .02 -SS TTS-EKU "I should be ashamed of this, I'm not, 'Cause I have tasted grapes. This smile, don't look. It's my bait, my words, the hook." --DS ------------------------------ Message-Id: From: Jim Dougherty Subject: funky new theaters, traveler lines Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 15:18:48 -0500 Okay, so they're not really connected. One of our theaters, now about 13 years old, was originally a variety of colors, including light blue ceilings (prominent catwalks, etc.) and orange-stained wooden walls. This in a "black box" style of theater, not a proscenium house. To say the colors impacted the designs would be a generous understatement (Rumor has it the colors came about when the architects (prominent designers of performing arts facilities) asked the question whether a black box really needed to be black. The answer was no, that similarly dark and muted tones might work, but only the first word was heard.). In any case, the theater was painted black - walls, floor and undersides of the catwalks - by student labor as part of work on a show. It was a terrible job (one coat, lack of time and experience on the painters' part), and we've lived with it for about ten years. We can't get approval for a professional repainting job, but at least it's black now. My best moment was the look on the project architect's face when he came back for a site visit. One can't see the stage from the booth either, but the project architect told me they corrected that on their next facility. Nothing we can do about the column directly in front of the double doors into the rehearsal classroom. It looks like you've got some lovely beige primer, though! For the twisted traveler rope, one might try incorporating a swivel of some sort at the knot attaching the traveler rope. Might help. - Jim Dougherty ATD, Middlebury College P.S. I do like our theater, but it is quirky. ------------------------------ Subject: RE: Mackie sound boards Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 15:24:02 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Fritz, Barry L" Greg,=20 I think that I need to pay you a visit sometime soon. I've been looking at the Allen & Heath GL-2800 series to replace the Mackie in our smaller venue. Not quite ready to dive into digital consoles, but maybe you can change my mind. Barry Fritz > -----Original Message----- > From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Greg > Bierly > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 11:41 PM > To: Stagecraft > Subject: Re: Mackie sound boards >=20 > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- >=20 > > What are people using these days? I'm thinking I'm about to have to > > start looking around.. >=20 > With a lot of finagling I got my Yamaha M7CL-32 last Tuesday. It has > been hooked up and operational since this Tuesday. So far it is > wonderful. I know many of you are working on a mackie budget but I > can lock out everything but the podium mic volume slider or have the > full function of a digital console for the price of top of the line > analog console (not to mention the cost of a full rack of > compressors, eq's, and effects that I don't need to purchase). WOW! > If anyone is looking at one the learning curve is not bad. I pretty > much had it down in two 2 hour sessions. >=20 > Greg Bierly ------------------------------ Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.0.20060225123008.01f8ec20 [at] interstellar.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:31:53 -0800 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: funky new theaters, traveler lines In-Reply-To: References: At 12:18 PM 2/25/2006, you wrote: >My best moment was the look on the project architect's face when he >came back for a site visit. Maybe the reason architects don't visit theatres they've designed is fear of bodily harm. :) Also, they can honestly say they've never seen a problem with any theatre they've designed. :( -- Jerry Durand, Durand Interstellar, Inc. www.interstellar.com 219 Oak Wood Way, Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 ------------------------------ From: "JUSTIN DAVID BENNETT" Subject: RE: How to (cross a cable) drop a drop box. Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 14:59:36 -0600 In-reply-to: Message-ID: "Just like all those audio snakes that I see with power cords taped to them to power the FOH position?" I'm just going to second what Dale said, and mention that EMI is proportional to current. Most of the time if I see a power line taped to a snake the power amps are onstage so there isn't much current going to FOH. Justin Bennett Technical Director / Theatre Manager St. Philip's College - Watson Fine Arts Center jbennett43 [at] mail.accd.edu (210) 531-4706 Office (210) 531-4768 Fax ------------------------------ Message-ID: <8231e7ea0602251306g74e1d982h9bb36fc819b419d7 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:06:23 -0500 From: SS Subject: Re: Trap system design In-Reply-To: References: >>>>> Question is, would you prefer a carefully built wood floor with all wood or easily removed/modified steel framing where the plan is you cut the hole you need and repair the floor after OR do you want lift out panels? I prefer the cut as you need because of the short comings of permanent traps: gaps, seams, different feel and resiliency for dancers, possibly different sound from foot fall, compromises to get units light enough that don't need a machine to lift out, and enough additional cost to sometimes get the trap room cut from the project altogether. A hole with a few wood beams is a lot cheaper than a system with hardware and such. But then cutting a hole in the floor would deter some from using it.<<<<< I'm not sure exactly what my opinion is on this one for a multitude of reasons. But what I will say is that having permanent traps is cool and all, but if they are not properly used and maintained you're going to have mucho problems. A university I was employed at back in the day had traps. Over the course of time it seemed no one ever took care/inspected the flooring. We (meaning folks who were moslty new on staff) eventually did a show in which we needed to remove one of the traps. Oh the horror we found heading into the trap room. Bolts missing, supports actually falling apart, etc., etc. It wasn't pretty. It was a surprise no one ever got injured. Also, since those suckers were so heavy, we needed a lift to remove them. Boy howdy was that a pain in the butt. Especially since no one had ever done any such maintenance on the lift either. We dusted it off, checked the oil pressure, etc, etc. and started running that bad boy. We used it to remove the traps, and also decided that it would serve useful for actor entrance/exits in the appropriate scenes. Well, guess what happened on the night of first dress...it died!! After frantically trying to determine the cause of death, and trying to find any iota of "paperwork" documenting it's upkeep, installation, warranty, etc, etc...we finally got it "tweaked" to get us through the (thankfully short) run and strike/restoration. I, coincidentally, stopped working there shortly after this, but I do believe they finally got someone from the manufacturer to come out and take-a-look-see. Anywho, long story too long already, you make valid points to the pros/cons of both. So whatever you decide to do, do your research and know what you're getting yourself into, I guess. HTH (but probably didn't :) -SS TTS-EKU "I should be ashamed of this, I'm not, 'Cause I have tasted grapes. This smile, don't look. It's my bait, my words, the hook." --DS ------------------------------ Message-ID: <8231e7ea0602251306t45d92a7bnb61e5bf3634830af [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:06:44 -0500 From: SS Subject: Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! In-Reply-To: References: >>>>I've worked Strand 300 and 500s before. They have an entirely different syntax than an ETC, which most people are probably familiar with (hint: the * key is your friend), but I find that they're very competent consoles, and pretty well thought out. You just have to think the way they do.<<<< >>>>> "The problem isn't that I think the Strand is a bad board, it's just too much board for this situation. A much simpler, more intuitive board would have made much more sense here."<<<< >>>>For someone like me that learned on piano boards, the Strand consoles have always been intuitive. I can still walk in and run one.<<<<< I can never figure out why so many people seem to have vendettas against Strands. I've worked with just as many Strands, if not more than any other board. And I must agree with you guys. Strands are very simple to learn and work with. What's all the beef about? :) -SS TTS-EKU "I should be ashamed of this, I'm not, 'Cause I have tasted grapes. This smile, don't look. It's my bait, my words, the hook." --DS ------------------------------ Message-ID: <8231e7ea0602251312g3c24b61ey1cdec6cd8713cba5 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:12:03 -0500 From: SS Subject: Re: Mackie sound boards >>>>Depends on what you're doing with it. If most of your workload is set cues and playback, digital is one way to go...but I don't recommend digital consoles when most of the workload is live reinforcement on one-offs.<<<< First let me start by saying, I am not a skweek by trade. Although I have done before/still do some skweeking, I cannot hold a candle to many members of this here list. That said, I agree with Paul. Having had opportunity at one point or another in life to work with digital boards, I liked them for playback, cueing, and studio type gigs. Otherwise, I prefer old-school methodology for live re-inforcement. .02 -SS TTS-EKU "I should be ashamed of this, I'm not, 'Cause I have tasted grapes. This smile, don't look. It's my bait, my words, the hook." --DS ------------------------------ Message-ID: <8231e7ea0602251312t3453bb5bl7eaa0d8e798742f1 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:12:58 -0500 From: SS Subject: Rant (was: Hanging Choir Mics & Snow, Exit, Safety) >>>>Finding cheaper mics and saving money just means you have to spend the money on the 'real' mics again later.<<<< & >>>>I am constantly amazed how often staff will adapt rather than get somet= hing fixed. The number of stories I've heard about posting ushers at a trip hazard to warn and catch people is amazing - just fix the damn problem.<<<< I'd just like to take a moment and state that this applies to just about anything in life really, and that it seems like just an ounce of common sense. My question is then, why is it that this "theory" is in fact so damn difficult to get through to other people? Why does something so obvious and proper always have to seem like a "lost cause" all the time? The "let's half-ass everything" approach never gets you anywhere, and ends up costing more in the long run anyway (be it monetarilly, emotionally, or whatever!) Just a short rant. Thanks for the Bandwith. -SS TTS-EKU "I should be ashamed of this, I'm not, 'Cause I have tasted grapes. This smile, don't look. It's my bait, my words, the hook." --DS ------------------------------ From: "Tony Deeming" Subject: RE: Designers and consultants - A RANT! Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:15:23 -0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > > I can never figure out why so many people seem to have vendettas > against Strands. I've worked with just as many Strands, if not more > than any other board. And I must agree with you guys. Strands are very > simple to learn and work with. > > What's all the beef about? :) > > -SS As far as I can see, the main beef against strand comes from the left side of the pond - we in the UK have been used to Strand being the desk of choice in a wide variety of venues for many years, and on the whole, service and support has been fine. (Something I suspect is not necessarily true now or in the future...............) However, the US market has been dominated I gather by ETC and a couple of others, and strand's poor reputation is mainly based on their inability to satisfy the American market in support. My tuppence, anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 15:50:16 -0600 Subject: Re: Mackie sound boards From: Shawn Deiger Message-ID: In-Reply-To: On 2/25/06 8:55 AM, "Paul Schreiner" wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > >>> What are people using these days? I'm thinking I'm about to have to >>> start looking around.. >> >> With a lot of finagling I got my Yamaha M7CL-32 last Tuesday. > > Depends on what you're doing with it. If most of your workload is set > cues and playback, digital is one way to go...but I don't recommend > digital consoles when most of the workload is live reinforcement on > one-offs. > > Once upon a time I fell in love with a 16-channel Soundcraft Delta > mixer I bought used off someone on this list (back in--eek!--late > 1997). Since then, they've always been my personal first choice, and > I haven't been disappointed. I'd love to get a Series Two for the > space I'm in now. Had a 32x8 at my last job, and...well, I'm all > verklempt just thinking about it. :) > > FWIW, the Mackie I'm stuck with now is also showing its age (which in > reality isn't all that old). Crosstalk, intermittent signal on some > channels, noise on others, "loose" faders, and a somewhat unintuitive > interface...nothing about the Mackies I've seen screams "professional > construction." Bells and whistles, yes...but in trying to cut enough > corners to get the bells and whistles cheap enough for the garage band > crowd, the product no longer holds up to the standards or workload I'd > call professional. I hear they make good boat anchors, though... Paul, You bought that mixer from me when I was at George Street Playhouse. Glad to hear it worked out for you. ____________ Shawn Deiger Sound Production Coordinator Theatre Master Electrician UNK Music and Performing Arts 308-865-8050 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:06:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! From: Bruce Purdy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > I can never figure out why so many people seem to have vendettas > against Strands. I've worked with just as many Strands, if not more > than any other board. And that's why it's so easy for you - because you are so used to it. Discounting the rheostat boards, I have worked on many boards over the years, including Scrimmers, Teatronics, LMI, Colortran, and finally, ETC. Forgetting about programmable cues and memories, effects and all, and approaching any of them as a simple manual two scene pre-set, they all are pretty much alike. I can walk up to any of these boards, and in manual mode (for the more advanced boards) know right off how to run them. Learning to program the fancier boards may take a little longer. When I sat down at the Strand, NOTHING worked like I expected it to. There was no real manual there, but there was an "Installation manual", and a small manual for the OS. There were no pictures or diagrams, everything I could find talked about programming it and such, but I'll be darned if I could find word one about simply running it as a manual board! It appears that I'll have to learn to program the board to use it at all - whereas any of the others I mentioned are easy to pick up on. I can, and may, learn how to really use this one, but any student could - as I did years ago - just sit down at another board and figure it out on his own in jig time. Again, with proper training I'm sure that this is a great board with great capabilities. But I believe in simplicity - and if an untrained person can't just sit down for the first time and figure out how to run it in manual then it's too much of a board for this type of an installation. Especially if there isn't anyone on staff responsible for dealing with it. Bruce -- Bruce Purdy Technical Director Smith Opera House ------------------------------ From: "JUSTIN DAVID BENNETT" Subject: RE: Designers and consultants - A RANT! Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:15:05 -0600 In-reply-to: Message-ID: I think for the most part it's a familiarity thing. People who are used to one thing have a problem switching to the other. The Strand boards speak differently, and offer a lot more flexibility. Adjusting to the language is an effort if you learned on ETC as I did. Lot of options often equals confusion when people do not know what to do with them. I hated Strand the first time I used a 550. After about two designs, I didn't look back. You can pretty much control everything on this board right down to the display appearance. Effects can be on subs, and even fade in and out with cues. I know people have had problems with Strand Tech Support. In my experience, they have good days and bad days. Here at my current job, I'm stuck with an ETC Express and the frustrations never stop. If anyone from ETC is watching, I'd love a software update that will give me all 192 channels on screen, and a function that will allow me to write an effect into a cue that will cross fade from the prior cue. I'd like other things, but I'll settle for that. Justin Bennett Technical Director / Theatre Manager St. Philip's College - Watson Fine Arts Center jbennett43 [at] mail.accd.edu (210) 531-4706 Office (210) 531-4768 Fax <> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:28:59 -0500 Subject: Express (Was: Designers and consultants - A RANT!) From: Bruce Purdy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > Here at my current job, I'm stuck with an ETC Express and the frustrations > never stop. If anyone from ETC is watching, I'd love a software update that > will give me all 192 channels on screen, and a function that will allow me > to write an effect into a cue that will cross fade from the prior cue. I'd > like other things, but I'll settle for that. Since I got my Express, I love it. My biggest complaint however, is that you can only view the patch by dimmer - not by channel. If I want to double check which dimmers are patched to channel 37, I have to scroll through all the dimmers looking for any that might have 37 in the channel column. (Unless there's something in the options that I haven't found that is.) Bruce -- Bruce Purdy Technical Director Smith Opera House ------------------------------ Message-ID: <8231e7ea0602251446h14d80d36gbfd5b620c8a8d116 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:46:31 -0500 From: SS Subject: Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! In-Reply-To: References: >>>>Again, with proper training I'm sure that this is a great board with great capabilities. But I believe in simplicity - and if an untrained person can't just sit down for the first time and figure out how to run it in manual then it's too much of a board for this type of an installation. Especially if there isn't anyone on staff responsible for dealing with it.<<<< What kind of Strand console is it? I'm sure you said in your original post, and I'm just flaking. Sorry about that. Hoping this isn't a testament to why I like Strands, the first board I learned on was a Strand. I really didn't have anyone helping me out, no manual, no nothing. Just sat down and goofed. Granted, I can't even recall what model it was, but I do know it was nothing like any of the newer stuff (500 series and the like). Oh well. Six in one, half a dozen in the other I suppose. That's the only reason I ask. Good luck and happy programming (maybe)!! :) -SS TTS-EKU ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20060225160737.00d284e0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:07:37 From: CB Subject: Re: Tech riders for touring groups >I try the Patience & Diplomacy >route and if that doesn't work I just suck it up & count the hours >until the door closes at the end of the gig. In between, you could try the 'Lets go somewhere and talk' speech. Once the two of you are alone, you could get out the paperwork and discuss which person on the tour has *actually* screwed him (by signing away parts of the rider that he actually couldn't do the show without) and send him off to shout at that individual. Alternately, you could just explain that the parts he required to be filled were signed away by others, on his crew, and not you, and that you would have declined to have the show come if they had decided that they couldn't do without an xyz. Being as its too late to go that route now, the two of you have to decide to join forces to make it work, or he could try shouting and yelling and doing it without the xyz *and* your enthusuastic support. If all that fails, I tend to shout louder and meaner and ruder than anyone else on the deck if provoked (and trust me, its a performance art that I tend to keep bottled up until there is absolutely no other recourse) and I'm usually a bit more eloquent because I'm not really out of control, just acting like it. Make a note, that I've only had to take this last measure a few times in my entire carreer, and it was because nothing else would have gotten any good results. In the middle of one giant loud tirade of curses and threats, I noticed my TD was freaking out, so I threw him a little wink, whcih amazed him no end. Afterwards, he told me that he had thought I had lost it, and was going to require chemical and physical restraint right before the wink. Acting does have its uses... Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20060225161326.00d284e0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:13:26 From: CB Subject: Re: Tech riders for touring groups > Written memos mailed to the other party of phone conversations that >were not disputed have stood up in court as valid contract >modifications, Working for a buddy of mine, I showed up at the dock of a fancy hotel to see the trucks unloaded and the rest of the crew building. Knowing that it is his habit to wait for the tick of Mickey's Big Hand, I asked how they got to work early. "Early! You're an hour late!" The next break, I accessed my e-mail and brought up his e-mail of three days previous, where he ad advised me of the call time. I suggested that if he didn't trust me, he might do the same and check his out box. We never discussed it again. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-ID: From: Steve Bailey Subject: RE: Express (Was: Designers and consultants - A RANT!) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:10:59 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Purdy [mailto:bpurdy [at] rochester.rr.com] Since I got my Express, I love it. My biggest complaint however, is that you can only view the patch by dimmer - not by channel. If I want to double check which dimmers are patched to channel 37, I have to scroll through all the dimmers looking for any that might have 37 in the channel column. (Unless there's something in the options that I haven't found that is.) Bruce -- Bruce Purdy Technical Director Smith Opera House Bruce, Maybe I'm missing something or doing something different without realizing it, but when I display Patch on Express, I see a left column in Ch order, and a right screen area with every dimmer patched to each channel. If I want to find what dimmers are in channel 43, I press "Channel 43", with the screen scrolling down to Ch 43. Is this not what you see ?. Perhaps what you are talking about is a spread sheet display ?. Steve Bailey Brooklyn College ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20060225161808.00d284e0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:18:08 From: CB Subject: help - snow, exits and safety >OK, at this point, you are either laughing or crying (or both). But if the >head of maintenance is saying that the AHJ has given his approval, what can >I do? Have a bit of a chat with teh mainenance folk about snow removal? You could start by mentioning the dynamite that is used as an anti-avalanche method, and end up with the 'your way / my way, you're going to like your way' conversation. O'course, I don' knw nuthin' bout r'movin'no snow, Miss Scarlet... Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <290.64ab68a.31323d54 [at] aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:08:04 EST Subject: Re: Designers and consultants In a message dated 25/02/06 00:45:58 GMT Standard Time, bpurdy [at] rochester.rr.com writes: > Make sense? In the case you quote, yes. I have done it myself, but always from the control room, but only for very simple sound shows which are all playback. I cheat, and use the remote controls, leaving the desk settings alone. Carrying a 4' long sound console down, with all the rest of the paraphernalia would be a major epic, although there are plenty of tie-lines. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20060225163627.00d284e0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:36:27 From: CB Subject: Re: Mackie sound boards (was: Tech riders for small touring groups) >Care to fill in this non-skweek on why Mackie boards are bad? It's not that they're so bad, its that they're so innappropriate for touring, or professional sound. There are a coupla Mackie products that don't fit this category, and, as often is the case when painting with a wide brush, they'll seem maligned unjustly. Think of it as having no ther tools in the carp dept other than Leatherman and Gerber type multi-tools. Nothing wrong with these types of tools, I'd just prefer that these are my backups for the 'real' tools. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <102.7124506f.313241cc [at] aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:27:08 EST Subject: Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! In a message dated 25/02/06 01:15:19 GMT Standard Time, bpurdy [at] rochester.rr.com writes: > The board (Series 300 - master and 5 panels) is so totally different > from any I've ever worked on that I was unable to figure it out on my own. I > finally pulled out their old Colortran board from a dusty closet (I knew > they must have it there somewhere) and now I at least have some control! > > All I can figure is that whoever designed this monstrosity must have > been a Strand dealer, and selling that product was his only talent! Strand have funny ideas, from time to time. One of the best was to label the controls on a board with characters in a different texture of dark grey on dark grey. Just what you want under operational lighting! Such boards of this type as I have seen were covered in stuck-on labels. When we were looking to replace our old board, many years ago, we went to Strand for a demonstration. One of the ones they showed us was so new that the demonstrator couldn't drive it. We bought an ARRI (now ETC), and have stayed with them ever since. Their stores and sales used to be handy, about a mile from the theatre. Then they moved them to the other end of the road. This happens to be the Great South-West road, and they are now in Exeter, some 200 miles off. Gels and so on now come from one of our members, who has a small hire and supply business rather nearer. It's little things like this which annoy customers. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20060225164856.00d284e0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:48:56 From: CB Subject: Re: Designers and consultants >But, you may not obstruct a fire exit. And why do you want the consoles in >the house? Sound, yes, for a live mix, but lighting, why? >Taking either out of the control room involves an awful lot of ad hoc wiring, >the working lights are badly positioned, the communications are not there, >and are fully audible any way. When you get a cue wrong, and you will, all the >comments are also audible. >I agree that live sound mixes need to be done from in the house, but the guy >doing it has no need of the SM calling cues. Both cans and open speakers are >impracticable Nope, I haven't lost my mind, I needed to re-post the entire post bacause, well, so much of it is just plain wrong or unenlightened. 'Kay, where do I start? 1. Sometimes it is far more impractical to run the lighting guy out to the booth than it is to put him next to the sound guy, sinc you are running com and junk throuygh the house anyways. Most every touring show I've ever worked on, or done the in and out on, and most industrials, and music shows, and, well, pretty much anything that wasn't a straight play in the hosue of the company doing the play, has put the sound and lighting consoles in the house. Yes, I realize that in your venue it isn't practical, necessary, or even that bright. Try to realize that you fit into a very tiny, infinitesimal, reeeeeally small portion of the people who make entertainment for other people. Rhode Island could kick all y'alls butt in football. 2. When we tour, we take all that ad hoc wiring with us, and run it down the aisle every single time. It almost doesn't even bother me anymore. And, we are pro's, we don't get cues wrong. And when we do get cues wrong, we cuss under our breath. I've gotten pretty good at it. 3. The guy doing it does, in fact need the SM calling cues. We'vwe figured out a number of ways to make that happen without cans and without open speakers. Cue lights, for one, and handsets with a blinkie call light for another. Trust me, we've thought about this. 4. Let go of my ears, I know what I'm doing. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <2ed.1c700cb.3132458b [at] aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:43:07 EST Subject: Re: Designers and consultants In a message dated 25/02/06 01:51:07 GMT Standard Time, idahoscenic [at] cableone.net writes: > I, and I'm sure a few other list members, frequently live in > different worlds than a standard theatre setting. > I have hundreds of times unloaded a one to four truck tour at what is > sometimes considered a loading dock into the only little old theatre in > town and, except for a 200amp and a 400amp service and their deck, to > put on a little Country (or R&R or Folk...) show. Oh, we might have > used their spotlights. Sound and lights were usually, if there was the > space, one hundred feet from the principle's mic, deadcenter. Ok > sometimes the lighting was HL 20 or so rows up in the extra handicap > seating. We are not a receiving house. Yes, there are companies who hire the premises for their own shows, and they are told exactly what they are getting. Basically, they get a theatre TD, and a technician who knows both lights and sound. This is for our protection, to stop them from damaging the equipment, and for finding things. They get our full inventory. Where they go from there is down to them. Additional power can be provided, if asked for in time. > > We were self contained. And so are we. Visiting companies provide useful additional funds, as does hiring out rehearsal rooms during the day. We work evenings and weekends. Frank Wood ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <148.55ec84f8.3132482f [at] aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:54:23 EST Subject: Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! In a message dated 25/02/06 03:30:40 GMT Standard Time, slitterst [at] ithaca.edu writes: > But seriously, I have a 300, have taught myself most of its features and > have gone to programming seminars to learn the ones I couldn't figure > out. But, equally seriously, you shouldn't have to do this. When we got our ARRI, I skimmed through the manual, to see what it was capable of doing, and then used it. If I wanted to do something more complicated, I got out the manual and looked up the specific topic. OK, I seldom want to do complicated things. But, if I do, the information is there. All I have to do is to read it, and apply it. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20060225171054.00d284e0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:10:54 From: CB Subject: Re: MSDS Binders >tell him that his best buddy just injected paint into >his finger when trying to unclog the spray gun. What are >the first aid instructions? Well, the first thing that you do in any situation like this is try to keep a straight face. If you grin, the 'patient' just gets angry, which increases heart-rate, blood pressure, respirations, and the chances that you will become 'patient two'. Giggling should be considered right out. Really, it is't funny! Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 19:22:15 EST Subject: Re: circuit breaker In a message dated 25/02/06 08:39:24 GMT Standard Time, billn [at] peak.org writes: > Absolutely not, except for legally mandated dedicated circuits like the > range/stove and water heater. And these are usually hard wired instead of > using plugs and outlets. With us, also. Any single heavy load is in dedicated wiring to its own breaker. > > To get roughly the same wattage as you have, we would need 6 120V/20A > circuits (14400 watts total vs your two 208V/30A circuits at 12480 watts). > 6 breakers would be required, but breakers are inexpensive. It also allows > much more freedom in isolating a set of outlets without shutting down > everything. Bad numbers here. Our mains is at 230|V, when single phase. And, I have one 230V/30A ring, in 2.5 sq mm cable, and one breaker. > > We can use smaller gauge wiring and, without the necessity of a loop to > cover all the outlets, the linear feet of wire used might easily be little > greater than required for your system. So just how do you wire a house? I ask for information only, and don't want to start a comparison thread in terms of either value or engineering. I'm just curious. Frank Wood ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <1d4.4e7c08dc.31325136 [at] aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 19:32:54 EST Subject: Re: Designers and consultants In a message dated 25/02/06 09:39:26 GMT Standard Time, billn [at] peak.org writes: > Lighting cues are frequently set by the designer - and the board needs to > be in the house for that. I should hope so! But why? If you have a competent operator, instructions down an intercom are promptly executed. > > > Taking either out of the control room involves an awful lot of ad hoc > > wiring, > > the working lights are badly positioned, the communications are not there, > > and are fully audible any way. When you get a cue wrong, and you will, all > > the comments are also audible. > > It is easy with DMX control. And intercom connections are simple as well. > The board is moved back to the booth for the actual performances. And most boards have a wired remote, as well. Once the states are established, I take this into the house, and look for defiencies. Personally, I never record changes I have made on it, but just make notes. I don't want my operator confused. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4400FE62.9010208 [at] cybercom.net> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 20:03:30 -0500 From: Dale Farmer Organization: I'm working on that.... Subject: Re: circuit breaker References: In-Reply-To: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 25/02/06 08:39:24 GMT Standard Time, billn [at] peak.org writes: > >> Absolutely not, except for legally mandated dedicated circuits like the >> range/stove and water heater. And these are usually hard wired instead of >> using plugs and outlets. > > With us, also. Any single heavy load is in dedicated wiring to its own > breaker. >> >> To get roughly the same wattage as you have, we would need 6 120V/20A >> circuits (14400 watts total vs your two 208V/30A circuits at 12480 watts). >> 6 breakers would be required, but breakers are inexpensive. It also allows >> much more freedom in isolating a set of outlets without shutting down >> everything. > > Bad numbers here. Our mains is at 230|V, when single phase. And, I have one > 230V/30A ring, in 2.5 sq mm cable, and one breaker. >> >> We can use smaller gauge wiring and, without the necessity of a loop to >> cover all the outlets, the linear feet of wire used might easily be little >> greater than required for your system. > > So just how do you wire a house? I ask for information only, and don't want > to start a comparison thread in terms of either value or engineering. I'm just > curious. Off topic, since how one wires a house in the US has little application to what happens in a theater or convention center. Feed from the street is a single phase, 120/240 volt feed coming from a center tapped transformer out on the street. The center conductor is the neutral and is connected to earth stakes every few hundred feet along the street, which is the primary means of grounding out lighting strikes. After the feed goes through the electric meter, it enters the main panel. (Building Entrance panel in NEC-speak) Here you have a lead from your ground stake coming into the panel to your ground bus. Here, and only here is where the neutral wire (GroundED conductor in NEC-speak) is connected to the ground wire. ( GroundING conductor in NEC-speak) In any electric panels downstream, the connection between the ground bus and the neutral bus must be removed. The main fuse or breaker can be anything from 70 amps in a house wired in the 1940s, up to 400 amps for a modern house with electric heating, as our appetite for electrical power has increased. From your panel you feed your heavy loads with direct cables of the appropriate size cable. Electric stoves and dryers mostly. They get 240 volts. Sometimes there are smaller 240 volt circuits for things like air conditioners. Everything else gets 120 volt circuits fed from 15 or 20 amp breakers. 15 amp plugs can plug into both kinds of plug, but 20 amp male plugs can only plug into 20 amp receptacles. No fuses and usually no switches at the outlets. Typical outlet is two edison receptacles, NEMA 5-15 or 5-20. They are usually connected together, or can be separated. In a small room, such as a bedroom, there is one branch circuit that daisy chains from one outlet to the next. Typically one or two of the outlets are switched by a wall switch next to the door for a lamp. Larger rooms will be served by more circuits, depending on rules based on square footage of the room and any special loads, such as an entertainment center or air conditioner. Bathrooms, kitchens, garages and outdoor outlets require GFI protection, and have specific special rules that apply to each. More special rules to HVAC systems. So, each circuit starts at a breaker in the panel, runs to the first outlet it serves, then is daisy-chained from it to the next, and the next and so on, until it stops at the last device. None of that silly ring main nonsense that you insist is so superior. --Dale ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <80C68538-0117-4BE0-B538-52AD9382C95A [at] dejazzd.com> From: Greg Bierly Subject: Re: Mackie sound boards Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 20:07:34 -0500 > Around 20,000.00? > Gerry G. [at] $14,400 for the 32 channel, no meter bridge, no ext power supply. ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <80ACD2CF-D593-431D-A4D6-BBFE4BCF6456 [at] dejazzd.com> From: Greg Bierly Subject: Re: Mackie sound boards Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 20:09:16 -0500 > Greg, > > I think that I need to pay you a visit sometime soon. > I've been looking at the Allen & Heath GL-2800 series to replace the > Mackie in our smaller venue. Not quite ready to dive into digital > consoles, but maybe you can change my mind. > > Barry Fritz C'mon by, anyone in the central PA area and check it out. I may not be the best sales person but I think it is going to work out well for me. More on that later. Greg Bierly Technical Director Hempfield High School ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <290.646d862.31325bff [at] aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 20:18:55 EST Subject: Re: circuit breaker In a message dated 26/02/06 01:03:54 GMT Standard Time, dale [at] cybercom.net writes: > So, each circuit starts at a breaker in the panel, runs to the first > outlet it serves, then is daisy-chained from it to the next, and the > next and so on, until it stops at the last device. None of that silly > ring main nonsense that you insist is so superior. Well, maybe. Do you really want your 60W table lamp, and its wiring, protected by a 20A breaker? If you have one, put on your engineer's hat. Consider the subject objectively. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 20:23:11 -0500 From: "Paul Schreiner" Subject: Re: Rant (was: Hanging Choir Mics & Snow, Exit, Safety) In-Reply-To: References: > The "let's half-ass everything" approach never gets you anywhere, and > ends up costing more in the long run anyway (be it monetarilly, > emotionally, or whatever!) S'why one of the requirements I make of my crew is to never do something half-assed...go fully-assed all the time. ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 20:27:51 -0500 From: "Paul Schreiner" Subject: Re: Mackie sound boards In-Reply-To: References: > You bought that mixer from me when I was at George Street Playhouse. Glad= to > hear it worked out for you. Hot damn! I didn't know you were still hanging around the list!=20 Definitely owe you TWO beers for that baby...one of the absolute best deals I've ever been on the receiving end of in my whole life (just slightly beaten out by the deal my dad struck for my first vehicle). Consider yourself toasted by me with a Redhook IPA (tonight's beverage of choice)... ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 20:42:41 -0500 From: "Paul Schreiner" Subject: Re: Mackie sound boards In-Reply-To: References: > That said, I agree with Paul. Having had opportunity at one point or > another in life to work with digital boards, I liked them for > playback, cueing, and studio type gigs. Otherwise, I prefer old-school > methodology for live re-inforcement. For clarity's sake, and by way of full disclosure, I'm an almost completely self-taught sound guy. My training in sound has come from here, the theatre sound list, and a bunch o' experience. The number one reason (and number two, three, and five though seven reasons) digital boards aren't the best choice for reinforcement lies in the way they deal with channels. On an analog board, one fader controls one channel...but on a digital board, it's like having pages of submasters on an LX console. A 48-channel digital board might only have 12 or 16 faders, which limits what you can do live. This multiplicity of purpose also makes the learning curve slightly higher (which isn't necessarily a problem) and the potential for "oopsness" significantly higher (which ALWAYS is a problem, no matter the experience level). Having to go through a few keystrokes to get to different effects on various and sundry channels isn't a problem when you're in a studio situation and time isn't so critical...but when you need do drop the reverb on so-and-so's mic NOW, five keystrokes will lose out to one dial turn every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Give me a good, well-built analog board for anything live...I don't do enough recording of anything more than 6 or 12 tracks to require a digital console. And to meet the requirements of part A and still fit in the average budget...well, you've heard my favorite mixer company already. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20060225095010.01bb97b8 [at] mail.kingphilip.org> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 20:43:04 -0500 From: "H-High-S (Ferreira, Jr. - home)" Subject: Bruce Purdy wrote: >> Stephen Litterst wrote: Bruce, give me a half hour of your time and I'll make you love that console. You'll sell your own child to get to program on it. Actually Steve, knowing you are a Strand fan, I had thought about contacting you, and I might just take you up on your kind offer. I'm not averse to learning something new, and it would surely come in handy, but at this time I'm trying to figure out more basic stuff like "What the heck can I do with instruments that can't be aimed or focused", and (Thanks to a different board I'm already familiar with), where are they focused now? and What is connected to what dimmer? There is no documentation, and no one seems to know anything. This school has no drama department, just a bunch of "Wanna be actors" (Drama club) that hired a friend of mine to act as producer/director/advisor. He knows little about the tech end, and there isn't anyone in the school system that has any knowledge or interest in tech theatre. I was brought in to design (and it looks like probably operate) the lights and a couple of effects. There is no one that is responsible for the space, or has any understanding at all about what anything is or what it does. The problem isn't that I think the Strand is a bad board, it's just too much board for this situation. A much simpler, more intuitive board would have made much more sense here. Whilst I would like to learn the board, what happens beyond this one-off show? Who else in the school will work with it? There is no one that would be interested in learning it. Various teachers just turn it on for a concert or assembly, and turn it off afterwards! That's where my frustration lies. Between this and the lack of flexibility in the design of the space, I feel the high price tag equipment was a waste of taxpayers' money. Bruce << Bruce's experience somewhat mirrors my own. When my theatre program was "exiled" last year from the high school (until Fall, 2007) as a result of the demolition of the old school, including the old auditorium, we had to take up residence in the recently renovated middle school auditorium, with which I was unacquainted since its renovation. Going there for the first time with some of my student tech staff, I was confronted with a Strand 300 board and a complete Strand C-80 96 channel dimmer-per-circuit lighting system complete w/SL instruments (our old space had a 24 channel EDI Scrimmer II dimmer pack and corresponding ten-year-old EDI Lite 24 channel 2-scene preset board w/a mix of S4 and 360Q instruments). While I had worked with more extensive ETC systems elsewhere, I had never put my hands on a Strand board in my life, leaving going "duh" in front of my hardcore techies. Apparently, we were also to be the christening users of the system as no one had received any training and never bothered to ask because they were intimidated by the complexity of the board, hence it hadn't been turned on since the installation. We immediately demanded a training session, which we got, and one of my techs immediately poured over the manuals and extracted what we most needed to get started. In the year since then, five of us have become more proficient on the board (and my LD stripped it down to just the subs and the main panel) and we have learned to work with it (though I am still looking forward to the ETC system, incl. the Express 250 in our own new theatre in a little over 16 months!). I understand the enthusiasm for some for the Strand system, but the same lament has been repeated by Bruce and others here...it is not an intuitive system and not terribly user-friendly, esp. for non-tech types. Not much help, perhaps, just further commiseration. Joe Ferreira Joseph J. Ferreira, Jr. Department of History & Social Sciences & Director, KP Drama & GAPS King Philip Regional High School 201 Franklin Street Wrentham, MA 02093-2404 (508) 384-1000 E-mail: ferreiraj [at] kingphilip.org Web site: http://fac.kingphilip.org/~ferreiraj ------------------------------ Message-ID: <440114CD.8020505 [at] cybercom.net> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:39:09 -0500 From: Dale Farmer Organization: I'm working on that.... Subject: Re: circuit breaker References: In-Reply-To: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 26/02/06 01:03:54 GMT Standard Time, dale [at] cybercom.net > writes: > >> So, each circuit starts at a breaker in the panel, runs to the first >> outlet it serves, then is daisy-chained from it to the next, and the >> next and so on, until it stops at the last device. None of that silly >> ring main nonsense that you insist is so superior. > > Well, maybe. Do you really want your 60W table lamp, and its wiring, > protected by a 20A breaker? > > If you have one, put on your engineer's hat. Consider the subject > objectively. > > Frank Wood > > > Okay. Lets do a risk analysis then. What are the failure modes? Boiling them down: First is a dead short between the two current carrying leads. Yup, breaker trips after a fraction of a second. No problem now. Next is a contact between the neutral and the metal case of the lamp. Neutral is at or close to ground potential, so no significant hazard absent another complicating problem. No biggie. Next is a contact between the hot lead and the metallic casing of the lamp. Well, if the casing is metallic, then US code requires that the casing be connected to the grounded or the grounding conductor, thus this reduces to the short circuit case I first described. No problem once the breaker or fuse pops after a fraction of a second. The wiring in US table lamps are designed to safely withstand that 20 amp current flow for rather longer than the fraction of a second that it takes for a fuse or breaker to pop. How about I tell you about the construction site in Mexico I toured a few years ago. High rise waterfront building, my brother's father in law was buying one of the condos on the 20th floor or so. We walked up the open stairwell ( No railings installed yet) and I observed the high tech and really safe means for providing electrical power to the workers. Two heavy leads coming up through a convenient hole that was probably going to have a standpipe in it someday. The two leads had been stripped of insulation for about 1.5 inches, and the bare wires wrapped around a pair of nails pounded into a hunk of plywood. Workers who wanted power, took a length of cable and wrapped the bare ends around the nails. Nary a switch, breaker or fuse in sight. Now Frank, when are you going to get it through your thick skull that there are other ways to do things, that are just as valid as yours? They made different design decisions way back when, choosing different tradeoffs in the design. They are not bad, they are just different. Get over yourself. --Dale ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:46:35 -0800 From: "Mat Goebel" Subject: Re: How to (cross a cable) drop a drop box. In-Reply-To: References: The primary reason for this is to maintain a star power/grounding scheme. The advantages of this (avoiding common impedance coupling) far outweigh any drawbacks from magnetically induced noise. On 25/02/06, JUSTIN DAVID BENNETT wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > "Just like all those audio snakes that I see with power cords taped > to them to power the FOH position?" > > I'm just going to second what Dale said, and mention that EMI is > proportional to current. Most of the time if I see a power line taped to = a > snake the power amps are onstage so there isn't much current going to FOH= . -- Mat Goebel www.matgoebel.com Mobile: 510.693.1448 ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #705 *****************************