Return-Path: X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Lite Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 27973795; Sun, 26 Feb 2006 03:01:04 -0800 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_RECEIVED, NO_RELAYS autolearn=unavailable version=3.1.0 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on prxy.net X-Spam-Level: X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #706 Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 03:00:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #706 1. Re: Mackie sound boards by Adam Fitchett 2. Re: help - snow, exits and safety by "Occy" 3. Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! by June Abernathy 4. Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! by "Bill Nelson" 5. Re: Designers and consultants by "Bill Nelson" 6. Re: circuit breaker by "Occy" 7. Re: circuit breaker by "Bill Nelson" 8. Re: circuit breaker by "Bill Nelson" *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-ID: <44011DD4.30502 [at] fitchtech.net> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 22:17:40 -0500 From: Adam Fitchett Subject: Re: Mackie sound boards References:

In-Reply-To: Well, perhaps a little more clarification is need here. Some digital desks use layers for faders. The M7CL, which has been discussed most heavily so far on this subject, does not. If it's the 32- or 48-channel board you have 1 fader for each input channel along with a center section of 8 assignable faders, typically used as the mix outs or the DCAs. That being said, the M7CL is my least favorite of the digital consoles. On the most popular digital desks these days, Yamaha DM2000 and PM5D, they do indeed use layers for faders depending on how many of the inputs you are using, anything over 24 requires another layer. However, very rarely does one need to be tweaking with more than 24 channels at a time. Not that you don't have more than 24 channels going at once, but this is why you have you're DCAs in the middle, all of the mix levels in the corner (on the PM5D at least) and then only having to tweak one or two individual channels if needed. Also the way they are laid out, almost all parameters are easily accessible knobs on the control surface and not buried in software only pages you have to flip through. These two desks often get used for major live events and are especially popular in festival type set-ups as it means settings can be stored during a sound check and then recalled when needed during the main event. They are also great in multi-use facilities because one can have a preprogrammed patch and set up for any kind of repeat events and also lock out certain settings depending on who has to be able to use it. -Adam Fitchett Paul Schreiner wrote: >For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see >--------------------------------------------------- > > > >>That said, I agree with Paul. Having had opportunity at one point or >>another in life to work with digital boards, I liked them for >>playback, cueing, and studio type gigs. Otherwise, I prefer old-school >>methodology for live re-inforcement. >> >> > >For clarity's sake, and by way of full disclosure, I'm an almost >completely self-taught sound guy. My training in sound has come from >here, the theatre sound list, and a bunch o' experience. > >The number one reason (and number two, three, and five though seven >reasons) digital boards aren't the best choice for reinforcement lies >in the way they deal with channels. On an analog board, one fader >controls one channel...but on a digital board, it's like having pages >of submasters on an LX console. A 48-channel digital board might only >have 12 or 16 faders, which limits what you can do live. > >This multiplicity of purpose also makes the learning curve slightly >higher (which isn't necessarily a problem) and the potential for >"oopsness" significantly higher (which ALWAYS is a problem, no matter >the experience level). Having to go through a few keystrokes to get >to different effects on various and sundry channels isn't a problem >when you're in a studio situation and time isn't so critical...but >when you need do drop the reverb on so-and-so's mic NOW, five >keystrokes will lose out to one dial turn every day of the week and >twice on Sundays. > >Give me a good, well-built analog board for anything live...I don't do >enough recording of anything more than 6 or 12 tracks to require a >digital console. And to meet the requirements of part A and still fit >in the average budget...well, you've heard my favorite mixer company >already. > > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: From: "Occy" Cc: bill [at] bcaworld.com (Bill Conner) References: Subject: Re: help - snow, exits and safety Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:49:37 -0800 Hear Hear! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Conner" just fix the damn problem ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20060226072940.21010.qmail [at] web35313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 23:29:40 -0800 (PST) From: June Abernathy Subject: Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! Bruce posted: >"The problem isn't that I think the Strand is a bad >board, it's just too much board for this situation. A >much simpler, more intuitive board would have made >much more sense here." I feel your pain. OTOH, I don't think Strand is any more or less intuitive than most other computer consoles. It boils down to familiarity as much as anything. I learned on a Strand board, and therefore, don't think they are as obtuse as you do. OTOH, I heard nothing but how great and intuitive ETC boards were, and so when I finally went to work on one, I (and the guy teaching me) thought I was pretty dense, as it didn't come particularly intuitive to me. The syntax is backwards from Strand in a lot of areas. Alot of pounding the manual and practice time smoothed it out for me, and I'm sure it will for you on the Strand. Bottom line, download and/or beg the manual (or several of them) from Strand, read up and get yourself familiar, and try to coax some of the other users to do the same. It's totally possible that some of the novices will find it easier than you think, because they don't have preconceptions from other boards in their heads. And, I agree 100% with the poster who suggested programming the subs with area lights or looks for novice users. I've done this many times. You can put whole cues in them, or effects like a chase, or just groups like "blue cyc" "warm front" "cool top" "center special" or such in them, lable them, and let the novices just turn on the board and use the subs like a preset board. As they get better, they can set looks off the subs and record them as cues. I've been known to do this for myself for one offs and dance recitals and such. Put groups in subs, and play with them to get a look, and record it as a cue. You can then use them to "sweeten" a programmed cue on the fly in the moment. That system should get everybody by for a long time, and the more inspired can RTFM and move into the world of actual programming. June Abernathy IATSE #321 (Tampa, FL) FOH Electrician The Lion King National Tour (Gazelle) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1061.208.51.52.55.1140939692.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 23:41:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Designers and consultants - A RANT! From: "Bill Nelson" >> The two thinks I don't like are 1) that they don't have any built in >> effects, such as chases, flicker etc and 2) there isn't any way to >> program >> an effect into a cue. > > Cue 'x' FX 'y' ENTER. The Bijou does not have an FX key. > And as far as built-in effects, the comparable ETC boards don't have > that either. On any console you have to tell the board what channels > are involved and what you want them to do. There are some consoles that have various canned effects, such as chase, reverse chase, bounce, random, flicker etc. On the Bijou, all the steps in the effect must be manually programmed - channel by channel. Next time I create an effect, I think I will record a disc containing the effect - so it will be quickly available if I need it in the future. > Apparently my mind is wired wrong because I find effect writing, editing > and playback much easier on the Strand pallette line than on the ETC > Express(ion) line. On the Bijou, the best that can be done is record an effect in a submaster. There is no way to record that effect in a cue - even if you have "record submaster levels in cues" (or whatever it is called) enabled. Bill ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1119.208.51.52.55.1140942637.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 00:30:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Designers and consultants From: "Bill Nelson" >> Lighting cues are frequently set by the designer - and the board needs >> to be in the house for that. > > I should hope so! But why? If you have a competent operator, instructions > down an intercom are promptly executed. Often, no operator is available until wet tech, and might not be available until dress rehearsals. And the operators often are only competent to push the GO button on cue and to restore to a previous cue if an error is made. >> It is easy with DMX control. And intercom connections are simple as >> well. The board is moved back to the booth for the actual performances. > > And most boards have a wired remote, as well. Once the states are > established, I take this into the house, and look for defiencies. > Personally, I never > record changes I have made on it, but just make notes. I don't want my > operator confused. Wired or wireless - although some houses don't have either. With no operator, changes are best made from the house, not the booth. I need the actors/dancers on stage before I can catch all the deficiencies. And I can fix several problems in the time it would take to tell an operator to adjust just one level - which might need even further adjustment. Bill ------------------------------ Message-ID: From: "Occy" References:

Subject: Re: circuit breaker Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 00:33:07 -0800 Close but not right ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Farmer" > Off topic, since how one wires a house in the US has little > application to what happens in a theater or convention center. > > Feed from the street is a single phase, 120/240 volt feed > coming from a center tapped transformer out on the street. > The center conductor is the neutral and is connected to earth > stakes every few hundred feet along the street, which is the > primary means of grounding out lighting strikes. > After the feed goes through the electric meter, it enters the main > panel. (Building Entrance panel in NEC-speak) Here you have a lead from > your ground stake coming into the panel to your ground bus. Here, and > only here is where the neutral wire (GroundED conductor in NEC-speak) is > connected to the ground wire. ( GroundING conductor in NEC-speak) In any > electric panels downstream, the connection between the ground bus and > the neutral bus must be removed. The main fuse or breaker can be > anything from 70 amps in a house wired in the 1940s, up to 400 amps for > a modern house with electric heating, as our appetite for electrical > power has increased. > From your panel you feed your heavy loads with direct cables of the > appropriate size cable. Electric stoves and dryers mostly. They get 240 > volts. Sometimes there are smaller 240 volt circuits for things like > air conditioners. > Everything else gets 120 volt circuits fed from 15 or 20 amp breakers. > 15 amp plugs can plug into both kinds of plug, but 20 amp male plugs > can only plug into 20 amp receptacles. No fuses and usually no switches > at the outlets. Typical outlet is two edison receptacles, NEMA 5-15 or > 5-20. They are usually connected together, or can be separated. > In a small room, such as a bedroom, there is one branch circuit that > daisy chains from one outlet to the next. Typically one or two of the > outlets are switched by a wall switch next to the door for a lamp. > Larger rooms will be served by more circuits, depending on rules based > on square footage of the room and any special loads, such as an > entertainment center or air conditioner. > Bathrooms, kitchens, garages and outdoor outlets require GFI > protection, and have specific special rules that apply to each. More > special rules to HVAC systems. > So, each circuit starts at a breaker in the panel, runs to the first > outlet it serves, then is daisy-chained from it to the next, and the > next and so on, until it stops at the last device. None of that silly > ring main nonsense that you insist is so superior. > > --Dale > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1123.208.51.52.55.1140942992.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 00:36:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: circuit breaker From: "Bill Nelson" >> So, each circuit starts at a breaker in the panel, runs to the first >> outlet it serves, then is daisy-chained from it to the next, and the >> next and so on, until it stops at the last device. None of that silly >> ring main nonsense that you insist is so superior. > > Well, maybe. Do you really want your 60W table lamp, and its wiring, > protected by a 20A breaker? Whether home run or ring wiring is used is immaterial. The one possible deficiency in US code is that individual lamps and appliances often do not have their own fuses. Bill ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1131.208.51.52.55.1140943570.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 00:46:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: circuit breaker From: "Bill Nelson" > The wiring in US table lamps are designed to safely withstand that 20 > amp current flow for rather longer than the fraction of a second that it > takes for a fuse or breaker to pop. There is one other failure mode that you didn't mention. That is a partial short - allowing higher current than the equipment wiring is designed to carry continuously, but less than the current capacity of the breaker. Such failures are extremely rare - I have never seen one. Bill ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #706 *****************************