Return-Path: X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 30342373; Thu, 18 May 2006 03:01:40 -0700 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_RECEIVED, NO_RELAYS autolearn=unavailable version=3.1.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.1 (2006-03-10) on localhost X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #812 Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 03:00:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #812 1. Re: Weapons: "best practice" procedures... by Jim Hyslop 2. Re: Weapons: "best practice" procedures... by Jim Hyslop 3. Re: Weapons: "best practice" procedures... by Jim Hyslop 4. Re: Good mixer type by Jim Hyslop 5. Re: Good mixer type by Jim Hyslop 6. Re: stopping a telemarketer by Jim Hyslop 7. Re: Weapons: “best practice” procedures... by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 8. Re: Weapons: „best practice‰ procedures... by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 9. Re: Weapons: "best practice" procedures ... by June Abernathy 10. foils (was Re: Weapons: ) by Kate Daly 11. Re: Weapons: "best practice" procedures ... by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 12. Re: foils (was Re: Weapons: ) by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 13. Re: foils (was Re: Weapons: ) by megironda [at] att.net (Gerry G.) *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-ID: <446BE3F1.8000109 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 23:03:13 -0400 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: Weapons: "best practice" procedures... References: In-Reply-To: Salvatori, Jason wrote: > I agree, yet still stand by my statement. If you get an improperly manufactured > blank, a bad weld on the barrel plug, or any number of other unforeseeable > problems with the weapon, there is a chance on something being fired from > the gun. I've just always learned: > don't aim a gun at something unless you intend to kill it. > And I extend this rule to anything that has the potential, no matter how > miniscule, to fire. Last year, I helped on a production of "Sleuth". ****SPOILER WARNING - IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE SHOW, SKIP THIS MESSAGE **** We had two revolvers: one which fired blanks, and another revolver which was incapable of firing anything, not even blanks. The two looked almost identical - you could tell them apart at close range, but from more than a couple of yards away they were indistinguishable. The actor who played Andrew Wyke started out with the firing revolver, and he was very careful to always point the gun toward the ground. The theatre, by the way, is a thrust theatre - audience on three sides. When he shot the Staffordshire mug and the shepherdess, the blocking was such that he aimed up stage, away from the audience. He then ran upstage, ostensibly to inspect the resulting bullet holes, but in actuality a stage hand under the stairs swapped guns, handing Andrew the non-firing revolver. From then on, he didn't have to worry about where he pointed it. The action was staged such that the final shot occurred on the stairs directly above where the stagehand was hidden, so the actor playing Andrew was able to place the gun right on the back of Milo's head, in complete safety. The stagehand fired the gun underneath the stairs, which was close enough to the action to trick the audience into believing it was the on-stage gun being fired. Good acting supplied the rest. And, of course, proper, safe handling techniques were practiced during the run. At the end of the run, I had the fun job of firing off the remaining blanks :=) -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Message-ID: <446BE4DE.9050200 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 23:07:10 -0400 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: Weapons: "best practice" procedures... References: In-Reply-To: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com wrote: > All weapons must be stored in a secure store, even the ones designed to be > non-lethal, when not required on stage, together with their ammunition. One key reason for keeping the non-lethal weapons locked up is that in the event they are stolen, particularly if they are firearms, most people would probably not be able to distinguish them from the real thing. Authorities in any large city with any kind of gun problem (such as Toronto is now facing :=( will take a dim view of careless handling of replicas. -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Message-ID: <446BE593.9040709 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 23:10:11 -0400 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: Weapons: "best practice" procedures... References: In-Reply-To: Randy Whitcomb wrote: > This is one of Davie's ideas that has a basis in reality. After we > watch the Chamber's gun safety video, we allow anyone who's passed > the safety quiz to fire off a couple of blanks. There's not much > desire to play with them after that. Another effective technique is to take the actors to a live-firing range, and teach them how to handle real guns with real ammo (with a qualified range instructor, of course). We did that a few years back when we performed "Assassins". Everyone involved learned a very healthy respect for the weapons, both real and replica. -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Message-ID: <446BE5EE.8060205 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 23:11:42 -0400 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: Good mixer type References: In-Reply-To: Jeffrey E. Salzberg wrote: > You're being too harsh. They're also good for holding doors open. Not really. They're too bulky. People keep tripping over them. -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Message-ID: <446BE64C.80906 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 23:13:16 -0400 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: Good mixer type References: In-Reply-To: Storms, Randy wrote: > Man, sound guys are snobs! Mackie's SR series consoles are > inexpensive, feature-rich and relatively solid. Are they as good as > a Yamaha, Midas, etc.? No. Are they "serious" mixers? Maybe not. > But some gigs need a Cadillac, and others do fine with a Chevy; and > *for the money*, nobody competes with Mackie. I think Mackie gear is > aimed at the low-end professional, or in some cases high-end > consumer, market. Nobody expects you to mix Aerosmith on one. My experience does not match yours. Our Mackie board had intermittent sound problems that nobody, not even Mackie themselves, could figure out. -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ Message-ID: <446BE8BC.7040105 [at] dreampossible.ca> Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 23:23:40 -0400 From: Jim Hyslop Organization: Dreampossible Inc. Subject: Re: stopping a telemarketer References: In-Reply-To: Jerry Durand wrote: > Anyone else have good ways to confuse them? Amusing stories of chasing > off door-to-door sales people with props or SPFX? :) I've actually found a way to pretty much avoid telemarketers altogether. When I say hello, if there's any pause before someone starts talking, chances are it's a telemarketer and I hang up. I figure if I'm wrong, they'll call back and I'll apologize :=) -- Jim Hyslop ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: <434.14d1a39.319d4d8e [at] aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 00:09:50 EDT Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20Weapons:=20=E2=80=9Cbest=20practice=E2=80=9D=20p?= =?UTF-8?Q?rocedures...?= FrankWood writes: >There are rules for firearms. Yes, but the challenge is to discover which rules are the legal cum political ones vs. the practical real world ones. Knowledge of the former may keep you out of jail, but it is the latter ones that will keep you safe. In the United States, the Department of Justice via the BATFE (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives) and the Treasury Department both have areas of jurisdiction. There is a 243 page Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide that summarizes many of the Federal laws and regulations. Every state has their own set of laws as well. Some municipalities have their own separate codes. The OP in this case is working to soften an entirely local rule (zero tolerance). As someone else suggested, get thee to a legal counselor for an interpretation of the codes that apply in your area. For how to actually be safe in using the weapons, many have posted their own rules and you will see a good bit of overlap. Here again, get expert assistance. The stakes are too high to _almost_ get it right. >Basically, the barrel must be blocked, and the >blank charge must vent sideways or upwards. This is not a good statement to be taken as absolute rule. There are significant challenges to safely and effectively "blocking" the byproducts of a firearm discharge. If _all_ you do is plug the barrel, you have only created a pipe bomb. Sideways or upwards venting simply redirects the hazard, it does not eliminate it. What ever the approach, it must be implemented by a competent gunsmith. And do not assume that "manufactured" products have been well designed or manufactured. Often shortcuts are taken because of the notion that "it is not a *real* gun afterall." >This makes automatic weapons hard >to handle, since the back pressure is what cocks >the weapon for the next shot. And that is why a competent gunsmith must be involved in the modifications. Steve Vanciel Orlando, FL NRA Certified Firearms Instructor ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: <37d.318e8d2.319d5034 [at] aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 00:21:08 EDT Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:=20Weapons:=20=E2=80=9Ebest=20practice=E2=80=B0=20=20?= =?UTF-8?Q?procedures...?= >The Bob Chambers safety video is a good one for everyone in the cast to see. This video has many good points but it is not perfect. Please do not be lulled into thinking that it is a sufficient source of knowledge. One of my own quibbles with it has to do with the use of plastic cased blanks. He likes and recommends them. In my experience (using hundreds of them at one time) they are too unreliable and messy. First, they are not able to be manufactured with sufficiently tight tolerances to ensure reliable ignition. Also, the plastic does not hold up well under the stresses of firing and often leads to a jammed firearm. We switched to brass and were much happier with the consistency and the ability to tailor the load value as needed for each effect. Steve Vanciel Orlando, FL ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20060518042737.19371.qmail [at] web35315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 21:27:37 -0700 (PDT) From: June Abernathy Subject: Re: Weapons: "best practice" procedures ... I have often Stage Managed shows with weapons, (including the big kahuna - Assassins), and on the tour of Les Miserables, my job required me to shoot a blank pistol during the show. I could post my little list of "do's and don'ts" that I give the cast, if I could find it. It's somewhere in the depths of the computer, I'm sure . . . Basically, it's what everyone else has said - try to use non-viable weapons, lock them up, lock up the ammo, even though it's blanks, and lock it separately from the weapons. Have big serious rules about no one touching a weapon unless they are blocked to, and those people only when and how they are supposed to. Best if you can have a designated person to hand off weapons before the cue and take them after. Most times, you designate a "weapons master", who may be a prop person, an ASM, the SM, TD, or some other responsible and weapons-knowledgable person. On a big weapon show, it may be their only job. With guns, it's a good idea, if you can, to take the people who will be firing the guns to a range, where they can practice shooting the gun in safe surroundings. Most ranges offer instructions on weapons handling, and arranging a class might be a really good idea, for your cast AND for your weapons master. I agree with pushing to stage gunshots so that the shooter is actually aiming slightly up or downstage of the victim, where possible. And Frank, the reason for this is, if some bit of debris manages to lodge in the barrel, it can eject with explosive force. And even if all is clean as a whistle, hot gasses, small bits of powder and whatnot eject from a blank pistol. Enough to hurt someone at very close range. As a parenthetical, No one should ever press a blank pistol against their head or someone else's and fire. It is extremely unsafe. Find another way to stage the scene, use a sound effect or backstage gun for the shot, or something. The sound can deafen, and the crap from the barrel or even side vent can hurt or kill. Dont' do it. Don't let the director do it. One thing I always insist on is that all guns are treated as loaded and dangerous, even when they aren't. Actors can get complacent about guns that shoot "Only blanks". Better to instill respect for them, and treat them as though they carry real loads. The characters in the play need that, anyway. This means no horseplay, keeping your finger off the trigger until the last second before you plan to fire, being aware at all times of where the barrel is pointing (i.e. not at anyone until blocked to - pointed at floor or up to ceiling, etc.) I insist that they treat empty guns this way. I insist that they treat non-firing "replica" type weapons this way. Even the orange plastic squirt gun that they are using for rehearsal must be treated with the same rules as they will be using for the real ones. Overkill? Maybe. But I think it instills a habit of respect, and makes an easier transition once they start working with the real thing, if they do. (I don't let anyone play with non-working or toy guns used as rehearsal props either. Same rules.) By the way, a plugged barrel is not the only way, or even always the best way, to safety a gun. Some safety rules are written to insist on "plugged barrel" weapons, when they actually mean a non-viable weapon - one that is incapable of firing a live round. Since Plugged barrel weapons can't vent out through the barrel, they have to vent through the sides and/or the back of the weapon, which can take some getting used to for the shooter. And you have to be aware of what (and who) is near the sides and back of the weapon. For instance, in Assasssins, the assassin who kills McKinley is usually blocked to do what the actual assassin did, and wrap the gun in a handkerchief. But then, he is usually blocked to shoot the gun straight out at the audience, from down center. So, a plugged barrel is obviously desireable. But you don't want to shoot a plugged barrel weapon with a handkerchief wrapped around it's vent points! So you MUST make sure he removes the handkerchief before firing. (I'd have him remove it even from a normally venting gun too, but you wouldn't necessarily have to.) At any rate, a gun can be made non-viable in a couple of ways besides plugging the barrel. (ALL SUCH WORK SHOULD BE DONE BY A COMPETENT GUNSMITH!!!) You can put a bar through the barrel, or two, to make an X, preventing a projectile from escaping, but allowing gasses and powder to vent properly. (Makes these hard to clean!) Or, you can modify the chambers on a revolver, so that a blank cartridge will fit, but a real bullet will not. Starter pistols shoot .22 caliber blanks, but shoot 8 rounds, rather than the usual 6 from a revolver, which can come in handy. Blanks come in different sizes. Not just calibers, but different levels of loudness. If full load blanks are deafening everyone in a small house, or seem inappropriately loud for the scene at hand, you can get half load, quarter load, or even "no load" blanks, which have only the primer charge. Guns used in a production should be cleaned on a regular basis, and inspected before every use. In a best case scenario, they should be cleaned daily - at least every two or three shows. Edged weapons should be dulled for onstage use. The cast should get competent instruction - check with SAFD (Society of American Fight Directors). Many of the above rules apply - weapons locked up, handled only by appropriate people, etc. If you have edge to edge contact, (or really, ANY contact), they should be inspected nightly, and often this results in them needing some grinding to smooth nicks and burrs on the edges. SAFD instructors can help you with a lot of this stuff, by the way, from fistfights to sword fights to guns. And they often have a line on places to acquire stage weapons, too. June Abernathy IATSE #321 (Tampa, FL) FOH Electrician The Lion King National Tour (Gazelle) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.1.2.0.2.20060518003256.03d38f90 [at] mail.comcast.net> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 00:44:04 -0400 From: Kate Daly Subject: foils (was Re: Weapons: ) In-Reply-To: References: As a side note, I want to tell y'all how much you're validating something I did ages ago ... in the olden days when dinosaurs roamed (ok, in the early '80s) I fenced competitively and taught foil fencing in South Philly. I had to give up fencing because (insert long and completely off topic story here) but I kept my best foils on display in my living room because, well, because they just looked so cool. Fast forward to about five years ago, someone needed foils for a play and wanted to borrow mine. No weapons master, no fight instructor -- they just wanted the foils, and me to come in and give a quickie lesson on how to use them. I refused, not negotiable. I told them these are weapons not toys, I'm not a qualified fight choreographer, I can't teach anyone enough fencing in half an hour to make them look authentic, and I wouldn't loan these particular foils in any case because they're older than god and would probably break the first time they were flexed. They argued, I refused; they demanded, I refused; they went away and told all their friends that I don't play well with others. I felt really bad about it for a long time and secretly wondered if I was being too much of a hard-arse. Based on what I've read in this thread, I wasn't. Thanks! ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: <428.15de4fd.319d6123 [at] aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 01:33:23 EDT Subject: Re: Weapons: "best practice" procedures ... As usual, June provides a very lucid, complete and accurate post. Please take special note of the following quotation: "responsible and weapons-knowledgable person." That is the key. Not even memorizing June's comments is sufficient to make someone that person. Her comments (and those of others who replied) will help you recognize that person. Weapons and/or Flying Effects - hire a professional. Steve Vanciel Orlando, FL ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: <442.cfb0fb.319d628e [at] aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 01:39:26 EDT Subject: Re: foils (was Re: Weapons: ) kdaly writes: >wondered if I was being too much of a hard-arse. In this arena: it's not possible to be. To go a bit further off topic: part of what we are up against is the TOTALLY unrealistic portrayal of firearms use by television and movies. That is what people have in their heads. It is all wrong. Steve Vanciel Orlando, FL ------------------------------ From: megironda [at] att.net (Gerry G.) Subject: Re: foils (was Re: Weapons: ) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 06:02:03 +0000 Message-Id: <051820060602.15140.446C0DDA000D659300003B2421603759640E0B02019D07090A03 [at] att.net> Tell me who it was so I can smack them on the side of the head! You were absolutely right. Never give someone just enough knowledge so they can get hurt. Moreso never give an actor an actual weapon without a weapons master in attendance and a legitimate need for a real weapon. Gerry G. -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Kate Daly > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > As a side note, I want to tell y'all how much you're validating something I > did ages ago ... in the olden days when dinosaurs roamed (ok, in the early > '80s) I fenced competitively and taught foil fencing in South Philly. I had > to give up fencing because (insert long and completely off topic story > here) but I kept my best foils on display in my living room because, well, > because they just looked so cool. > > Fast forward to about five years ago, someone needed foils for a play and > wanted to borrow mine. No weapons master, no fight instructor -- they just > wanted the foils, and me to come in and give a quickie lesson on how to use > them. I refused, not negotiable. I told them these are weapons not toys, > I'm not a qualified fight choreographer, I can't teach anyone enough > fencing in half an hour to make them look authentic, and I wouldn't loan > these particular foils in any case because they're older than god and would > probably break the first time they were flexed. > > They argued, I refused; they demanded, I refused; they went away and told > all their friends that I don't play well with others. I felt really bad > about it for a long time and secretly wondered if I was being too much of a > hard-arse. Based on what I've read in this thread, I wasn't. > > Thanks! > > ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #812 *****************************