Return-Path: X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 40638338; Mon, 01 Jan 2007 03:01:21 -0800 X-List-Processed: mail.prxy.net X-ListMember: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 40638236; Mon, 01 Jan 2007 03:01:17 -0800 X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=ADVANCE_FEE_1,ADVANCE_FEE_2, AWL,BAYES_50,MISSING_SUBJECT,NO_RECEIVED,NO_RELAYS,SARE_OBFU_PRESCR_SPL1, SUBJ_HAS_UNIQ_ID,TO_CC_NONE autolearn=no version=3.1.7 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.7 (2006-10-05) on localhost X-Spam-Level: X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: List-Archive: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #1071 Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 03:00:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #1071 1. Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff by Clive Mitchell 2. Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 3. Re: OT: First-aid & liability by Rigger 4. Re: OT: First-aid & liability by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 5. Re: First Aid Supplies by "Jim and Dave Productions" 6. Re: Altman 360Q by Danielle Maul 7. Back on the list/ Update by "Christopher H. Beck" 8. Re: OT: First-aid & liability by Rigger 9. Re: First Aid Supplies by Rigger 10. Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 11. Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff by Jerry Durand 12. Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff by "Bill Nelson" 13. Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff by Rigger 14. Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff by Clive Mitchell 15. first aid stuff by b Ricie 16. Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 17. Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff by "Jon Ares" 18. Re: Another job listing by CB 19. Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 20. Re: OT: First-aid & liability by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 21. Re: OT: First-aid & liability by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 22. Re: first aid stuff by MissWisc [at] aol.com 23. Re: Another job listing by Jerry Durand 24. Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff by Jerry Durand 25. Re: OT: First-aid & liability by Rigger 26. Re: OT: First-aid & liability by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 27. Old science books by Jerry Durand 28. Re: first aid stuff by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 29. Re: OT: First-aid & liability by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 30. Re: OT: First-aid & liability by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 31. Re: first aid stuff by "Tim Catlett" 32. Re: First Aid Supplies by "Steven Santos" 33. Re: first aid stuff by "Bill Nelson" 34. Re: OT: First-aid & liability by "Steven Santos" 35. Re: first aid stuff by MissWisc [at] aol.com 36. Re: OT: First-aid & liability by "Steven Santos" 37. Re: OT: First-aid & liability by "Bill Nelson" 38. Re: OT: First-aid & liability by "Bill Nelson" 39. Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff by "RD" 40. Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff by "RD" 41. new ideas for the stage tech olympics... by Michael Sorensen *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:04:39 +0000 From: Clive Mitchell Subject: Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff References:

In-Reply-To: In message , Dale farmer writes >IF you have the budget, an AED is really nice to have in the venue. Very affordable machines these days, and there's plenty of choice. Just don't use them to save lawyers. (Except Doom.) http://www.aedprofessionals.com/ -- Clive Mitchell http://www.bigclive.com ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: Semi OT: New first aid stuff Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 08:20:23 -0500 Message-ID: <000001c72cde$6dd7f5a0$6701a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > >IF you have the budget, an AED is really nice to have in the venue. > > Just don't use them to save lawyers. I think they only work on humans. ------------------------------ Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 08:34:19 -0500 From: Rigger Subject: Re: OT: First-aid & liability Jason Salvatori wrote: > I'd just be careful giving this to someone else when they are injured > - It could be a large liability. We are not stocked with any > "medications" as for liability purposes you must be an MD to give out > medication. Medication?!? People, it's a freakin' BAND-AID, fergawdsake! Before we've totally lost our perspective, remember we're talking about a mild topical coagulant here, not digitalis. You wanna be scared of people suing you for passing out bandages, then have at it. I'll take my chances with the Good Samaritan Defense. -- Dave Vick rigger [at] tds.net 20/20 Design "Fuel injection is like measuring the amount of sugar in your recipe with a measuring cup, and tasting it to see how much you should put in. Carburetion is like throwing a bag of sugar against the ceiling fan in your kitchen while the pot is uncovered. If you need a different amount of sugar, you use a different sized bag, or spin the fan at a different speed, or change the pitch of the ceiling fan blades." -- Unknown ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: OT: First-aid & liability Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 08:44:22 -0500 Message-ID: <000101c72ce1$c7820840$6701a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > Before we've totally lost our perspective, remember we're talking > about a mild topical coagulant here, not digitalis. You wanna be > scared of people suing you for passing out bandages, then have at it. > I'll take my chances with the Good Samaritan Defense. I have no idea if this would help me in a legal case (I suspect that I'm better-protected by the fact that I have no assets worth suing for), but rather than dispense any medication, I just say, "It's in the box over there." ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 10:40:09 -0500 From: "Jim and Dave Productions" Subject: Re:First Aid Supplies As a children's camp director in the very regulated State of New York, I have some experience in the medicine/treatment laws, epsecially as they govern schools/supervisors of children (which in NYS is ANYONE under the age of 18). Here is what was explained to me by the representative of the Department of Health (which rules on these topics around here): For a child (again, anyone under 18) to recieve basic medical treatment involving the administering of any medicine (over the counter included) BOTH the Parent (or guardian) AND a MD designated by the parent must approve in writing. Even Perscriptions need to be accounted for in writing(not just by bringing in the bottle). At the camp I ran, we had a form signed in advance with a list of medicines we would have on hand for approval (or non approval) by the parent and family Dr.. Every time a kid went to the nurse with a headache, bug bite, etc., flu she would check this form before administering anything. In the rare event that a form was incomplete, a couple simple phone calls and promises to fax in the written approval and we were on our way. Not really a big deal in most cases. BUT, what concerned me most about this was the worst case senario type stuff - especially the night a young man found out the hard way that he was allergic to bee-stings. Fortunatly we had done our homework with the Health Inspector. Basically, there is a big difference between treating a medical ailment (headache, stomach ache, etc.) and 'responding to an emergency', good samaritan laws cover emergency response regardless of age. I don't know if this helps at all, but ... Happy New Year! ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4597DCD4.9080906 [at] earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 10:52:52 -0500 From: Danielle Maul Reply-To: dmaulny [at] earthlink.net Subject: Re: Altman 360Q Hi all- Does it help to say that when I started in 1977, in upstate New York, they were already prevalent in the business? (I'm PRETTY certain...) I also suggest asking Altman... but you've made me curious too; could you post the answer here when you find out? Danielle Maul Art is making something out of nothing and selling it. Frank Zappa (1940 - 1993) ------------------------------ From: "Christopher H. Beck" Subject: Back on the list/ Update Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 11:34:26 -0500 Message-ID: <026801c72cf9$8ca39c80$6401a8c0 [at] DB3XZS21> In-Reply-To: Hello all, I'm happy to be back on the list with you all. Update- I'm now a manufacturer's rep for Strand, Strong, Clay Paky, L&E and others. Still a local One IATSE house head as well. Busy doesn't begin to cover it. I look forward to the fun of the list. Hello all, I'm happy to be back on the list with you all. Update- I'm now a manufacturer's rep for Strand, Strong, Clay Paky, L&E and others. Still a local One IATSE house head as well. Busy doesn't begin to cover it. I look forward to the fun of the list. Christopher H. Beck President Entertainment Lighting Reps PH: 646-290-6965 CL: 917-620-0864 FX: 646-349-5233 www.theatrereps.com ------------------------------ Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:32:34 -0500 From: Rigger Subject: Re: OT: First-aid & liability At 8:44 AM -0500 12/31/06, Jeffrey E. Salzberg wrote: >> Before we've totally lost our perspective, remember we're talking >> about a mild topical coagulant here, not digitalis. You wanna be >> scared of people suing you for passing out bandages, then have at it. >> I'll take my chances with the Good Samaritan Defense. > >I have no idea if this would help me in a legal case (I suspect that I'm >better-protected by the fact that I have no assets worth suing for), but >rather than dispense any medication, I just say, "It's in the box over >there." Probably a sound idea, that, but I'm seeing (or I think I'm seeing, at any rate) people shying away from even having basic 1st-aid supplies on hand, for fear of litigation. IANAL, but I hardly see handing someone a bandage (or the equivalent) to be "dispensing medication." Richard, since you *are* a lawyer, you wanna weigh in on this? -- Dave Vick rigger [at] tds.net 20/20 Design Yet another smart-ass post that Mike Sachs won't see. ------------------------------ Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:34:23 -0500 From: Rigger Subject: Re: First Aid Supplies At 10:40 AM -0500 12/31/06, Jim and Dave Productions wrote: >For a child (again, anyone under 18) to recieve basic medical >treatment involving the administering of any medicine (over the >counter included) BOTH the Parent (or guardian) AND a MD designated by >the parent must approve in writing. Even Perscriptions need to be >accounted for in writing(not just by bringing in the bottle). At the >camp I ran, we had a form signed in advance with a list of medicines >we would have on hand for approval (or non approval) by the parent and >family Dr.. Every time a kid went to the nurse with a headache, bug >bite, etc., flu she would check this form before administering >anything. In the rare event that a form was incomplete, a couple >simple phone calls and promises to fax in the written approval and we >were on our way. Not really a big deal in most cases. To bring this back closer to the topic at hand, what was the policy for deployment of bandaids for minor cuts or abrasions? -- Dave Vick rigger [at] tds.net 20/20 Design "Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime, the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." --Robert Heinlein ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 17:44:07 GMT Subject: Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff Message-Id: <20061231.094423.18186.1022837 [at] webmail36.lax.untd.com> I'm in favor of AED's being available for all to use, even on lawyers. /s/ Richard ________________________________________ > >IF you have the budget, an AED is really nice to have in the venue. > = > Just don't use them to save lawyers. I think they only work on humans. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 09:56:04 -0800 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff In-reply-to: Message-id: References: On Dec 31, 2006, at 5:44 PM, ladesigners [at] juno.com wrote: > > I'm in favor of AED's being available for all to use, even on lawyers. > /s/ Richard I thought they only worked on beings with a heart. :) ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1646.205.215.253.117.1167587924.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 09:58:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff From: "Bill Nelson" > I'm in favor of AED's being available for all to use, even on lawyers. Yeah. You could always apply it to their heads. Bill ------------------------------ Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:02:56 -0500 From: Rigger Subject: Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff At 9:56 AM -0800 12/31/06, Jerry Durand wrote: >> I'm in favor of AED's being available for all to use, even on lawyers. > > I thought they only worked on beings with a heart. Whaddya mean? Lawyers have hearts... They collect them from their adversaries' clients and keep them in mason jars. -- Dave Vick rigger [at] tds.net 20/20 Design If Helen Keller had psychic ability, would you say that she had a "fourth sense"? ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:22:12 +0000 From: Clive Mitchell Subject: Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff References:

In-Reply-To: In message , Bill Nelson writes >> I'm in favor of AED's being available for all to use, even on lawyers. > >Yeah. You could always apply it to their heads. How polite. You didn't even say testicles. My point of not using them on lawyers is the way the lawyers tried to make some more cash by implying that people attempting but failing to save a life with them were responsible for the death. On that basis we should avoid using any form of life saving treatment on lawyers. -- Clive Mitchell http://www.bigclive.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 10:45:29 -0800 (PST) From: b Ricie Subject: first aid stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <104633.32767.qm [at] web50604.mail.yahoo.com> My gut reaction is if you need to clot your blood to stop bleeding, that has to be one hell of a cut. From my own experience I know I clot fairly quickly, and I may use a band aid, but only to keep the cut clean. I also understand that a little bleeding is not a bad thing, it helps to clean the cut. I would hesitate to use the stuff on myself let alone a stranger. Just cause it is new does not mean it is good. Along the "lighter" side of first aid, a while back I was cleaning the shop. I moved the big metal first aid kit so I could get to the pile of dust that had been accumulating on and around it. As I reached over the kit to dust the shelf I knocked the kit off the table where I had set it. The kit fell, bounced off my shin and hurt like hell. I never had a chance to yell, the irony hit me first and I was far to busy laughing. beware folks, even a first aid kit can hurt ya. Brian Rice 508-685-0716 b_ricie [at] yahoo.com "Blessed are the cracked: For it is they who let in the light." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:02:27 EST Subject: Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff In a message dated 31/12/06 07:02:31 GMT Standard Time, MissWisc [at] aol.com writes: > "Over the Counter Drugs" in the USA include any product that lists an > "active ingredient" on the label. It includes such seemingly innocent things > as sun > screen and toothpaste! "Prescribing" or "giving" it to someone isn't the > same as "having it available". You can have regularly available OTC > medications > such as antacids, aspirin, Neosporin, and the like available for the ill > person to take themselves - just don't have anyone saying "You need to take > this" > or physically giving it to them without the ill/injured person instructing > them to do so. This is verging on the ridiculous. In the UK, we have three categories. The first is true OTC stuff, such as mild analgesiccs, cold alleviators, mild cough mixtures and so on. These are readily obtainable in many supermarkets, off the shelves. The second is called "Ethical Pharmaceuticals". These, while still OTC, can only be obtained from a pharmacy, with a registered pharmacist in attendance, who may well ask questions before selling them. The third is drugs only obtainable on a doctor's prescription. In France, I think that pharmacists are more highly trained, and have discretion. Certainly, last Summer, when I ran out of my prescribed medications, the local pharmacy sold me further supplies, in spite of the packs being marked "To be supplied only under prescription". Presumably she deduced that as I already had them, they had been properly prescribed. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-ID: <001901c72d0f$65abdd70$0400000a [at] BRUTUS> From: "Jon Ares" References: Subject: Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 11:10:55 -0800 > I'm in favor of AED's being available for all to use, even on lawyers. The trick is determining beforehand if the attorney even HAS a heart. (Richard exempted.) - Jon Ares www.hevanet.com/acreative ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20061231114513.00c7ce18 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 11:45:13 From: CB Subject: Re: Another job listing >Chris, I don't bother with your typos, mis-spelling, mis-punctuation, >mis-capitalisations and grammar any more. While I typo more often than most, it isn't due to a lack of ability to spell, and you *were* the one that corrected my spelling of 'grammar'. And, it was warranted. My punctuation, while liberal, tends to actually be doing work. Whether it is correct or not is usually a matter of opinion, as there are many differing positions of the proper use of some puntuation marks. I will also use colloquial spellings to convey a feeling, as e-mail is is impersonal, and you cannot see the handwavings or facial expressions that would accompany the text if I were speaking face-to-face. Mis-capitalisations tend to fall into that category, as that is also a pet-peeve of mine. Other than those, please feel free to correct my posts, off-list if you feel better about it that way. OTOH, I have never seen 'misspelling' hyphenated before... ; > Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <3f7.f560cd7.32c96758 [at] aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:19:52 EST Subject: Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff In a message dated 31/12/06 07:06:34 GMT Standard Time, mheinicke [at] sbcglobal.net writes: > Many people but Band Aids on primarily to help stop > the injury from bleeding, which is exactly what these > are intended for. I guess the big question for me is > if there is any likely interaction or side effects > from the blood clot strips. I would guess that that is > a large reason that someone must be a MD or pharmacist > or similar to dispense medication. Two things from my first-aid course. First, stop the bleeding. Second, supervise your 'patient' until the experts arrive. With a severe injury, involving arterial bleeding and a tourniquet, this needs released from time to time. On that course, we were taught to do the best that we could. For a broken limb, tightly rolled newspaper will make an impromptu splint. A bandage can be improvised with toilet paper and sticky tape. Frank Wood ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:25:06 EST Subject: Re: OT: First-aid & liability In a message dated 31/12/06 07:11:33 GMT Standard Time, mouse [at] fieldmousepro.com writes: > A while back I was helping to set up an exhibit booth in a convention > center. One of the other workers had a small cut on his hand, came up > to our group & asked if we had a band-aid. I said no, but I remembered > seeing a first-aid station around the corner. He said, "Yeah, I've > already been there. They wanted me to fill out 3 pages of liability > releases to get a band-aid." After we got our jaws off the ground, he > laughed & said, "Oh well, it's not that bad" & walked off. > > It's kinda funny, but not really. No, it isn't. It's absolutely tragic. That a person in need of care should be denied it, to fill in forms, is criminal. Frank Wood ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 19:41:14 GMT Subject: Re: OT: First-aid & liability Message-Id: <20061231.114120.8266.1023190 [at] webmail37.lax.untd.com> Dear Dave, First, selling someone an aspirin for a penny would most likely be = OK, as bottles of 100 of the 325 grain variety sell at the 99cent = store UNLESS the person requesting it was bleeding, such as by = exhibiting a bloody nose; in which case, you are expected to know = that aspirin is an anticoagulant and you shouldn't dispense it to a = minor or anyone not capable of making an informed consent to its use. Good Samaritan laws do NOT protect the unlicensed practice of = medicine in many cases, but the use of an AED is virtually always = protected; I am unaware of any published case where someone was held = liable for using a AED in the manner that the manufacturer intended. An emergency tracheotomy is somewhat riskier for both the patient and = the Good Samaritan, but even THAT intervention should be excusable if = the person was choking and the Heimlich Maneuver was was ineffective. /s/ Richard ______________________________ Probably a sound idea, that, but I'm seeing (or I think I'm seeing, = at any rate) people shying away from even having basic 1st-aid = supplies on hand, for fear of litigation. IANAL, but I hardly see handing someone a bandage (or the equivalent) = to be "dispensing medication." Richard, since you *are* a lawyer, you wanna weigh in on this? -- = Dave Vick ------------------------------ From: MissWisc [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 15:23:55 EST Subject: Re: first aid stuff b_ricie [at] yahoo.com writes: << From my own experience I know I clot fairly quickly, and I may use a band aid, but only to keep the cut clean. >> OK.. recent personal experience here... I was loading out a band from our local arena. Got two parallel scrapes about 4" long my forearm from one of the boxes. Didn't bleed right away, so I wasn't concerned. Minor bumps are part of the gig, shrug it off, and get back to work. Push the box to the truck, turn around and feel "warm" trickling down my arm. The scrapes were just deep enough to bleed. Tell my co-worker that I'm going to the bathroom to clean it up. At this point I'm more concerned about not bleeding all over things rather than any need for protection/healing on my part. Stick it in the sink, wash with soap/water and grab a paper towel to help dry. It won't stop bleeding yet. Go back to the work area holding the paper towel on my arm. Ask one of our IA locals who's on our safety committee if she knows where the First Aid kit is for that venue. She doesn't. We get the Venue supervisor and he's not certain either. He gets on the radio and we learn that it's in the office space near the front lobby - totally opposite end of the building where we are. At this point I'm glad I'm able to walk and the bleeding isn't life threatening. The three of us walk to the lobby offices and find a well stocked first aid kit. IS safety rep asks if I have any allergies, wipes with alcohol prep, and wraps with gauze. While we're doing this, the Venue supervisor grabs the 4 page form - what happened, where were you when it happened, did anyone see it, how was it treated, by whom, does that person have any special training, do you plan to go to the emergency room/doctor/chiropractor etc. All this for basically a band-aid. But let's say that I'm diabetic, the cuts were on my feet and they get infected resulting in the need for amputation. (Not likely, but possible.) Now it's a worker's compensation issue that could result in hundreds of thousands of dollars in liability. THAT'S why the 4 page form. Kristi ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:43:44 -0800 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: Another job listing In-reply-to: Message-id: <3F2DB470-A1E6-4F76-A923-CB51F99CB046 [at] interstellar.com> References: On Dec 31, 2006, at 11:45 AM, CB wrote: > OTOH, I have never seen 'misspelling' hyphenated before... ; > Isn't Miss Pelling one of the "ladies" I know? :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:51:18 -0800 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff In-reply-to: Message-id: <90ED5B53-6328-48B8-8912-768D3FE43B86 [at] interstellar.com> References:

On Dec 31, 2006, at 11:10 AM, Jon Ares wrote: > The trick is determining beforehand if the attorney even HAS a > heart. (Richard exempted.) Seems then that attorneys should carry a certification card verifying that they have a heart. Otherwise it will be assumed they don't. The card will have to be signed by two doctors, two ministers from different religions, and carry the attorney's picture. The card has to be renewed every 6 months. Please allow 4-6 weeks processing time. ------------------------------ Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 16:03:46 -0500 From: Rigger Subject: Re: OT: First-aid & liability At 7:41 PM +0000 12/31/06, ladesigners [at] juno.com wrote: >First, selling someone an aspirin for a penny would most likely be >OK, as bottles of 100 of the 325 grain variety sell at the 99cent >store UNLESS the person requesting it was bleeding, such as by >exhibiting a bloody nose; in which case, you are expected to know >that aspirin is an anticoagulant and you shouldn't dispense it to a >minor or anyone not capable of making an informed consent to its use. > >Good Samaritan laws do NOT protect the unlicensed practice of >medicine in many cases, but the use of an AED is virtually always >protected; I am unaware of any published case where someone was held >liable for using a AED in the manner that the manufacturer intended. > >An emergency tracheotomy is somewhat riskier for both the patient and >the Good Samaritan, but even THAT intervention should be excusable if >the person was choking and the Heimlich Maneuver was was ineffective. Cogent and informative, but what about handing someone a band-aid? And how did we get from coagulant strips to AEDs? -- Dave Vick rigger [at] tds.net I've been working on accepting my inner scumbag. ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:32:53 GMT Subject: Re: OT: First-aid & liability Message-Id: <20061231.133305.8266.1023424 [at] webmail37.lax.untd.com> Dear Dave, Handing a person a band-aid that they will put on themselves appears = risk-free, as long as it is packaged so as to maintain sterility. = Evidence that you laced it with Curare first might lessen your = defense . Even children can use AEDs effectively. That is why = manufacturers sell them, after consulting with their attorneys, = without fear of losing a product liability suit brought by an = ambulance chaser, even if the patient dies after the use of a AED. = That is why I recommend to my clients to mount one adjacent to fire = extinguisher or fire hose cabinets in public places, with an alarm. /s/ Richard _________________________________ Cogent and informative, but what about handing someone a band-aid? And how did we get from coagulant strips to AEDs? -- = Dave Vick ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:38:09 -0800 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Old science books Message-id: <7.0.1.0.0.20061231133638.01f31478 [at] interstellar.com> From another list, old science books in pdf format, no restrictions on download. http://www.sciencemadness.org/library/index.html A lot of old science is still good science, but you have to figure out which that is. Enjoy! -- Jerry Durand, Durand Interstellar, Inc. www.interstellar.com tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 Skype: jerrydurand ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:43:23 EST Subject: Re: first aid stuff In a message dated 31/12/06 20:34:26 GMT Standard Time, MissWisc [at] aol.com writes: > But let's say that I'm diabetic, the cuts were on my feet and they get > infected resulting in the need for amputation. (Not likely, but possible.) > Now > it's a worker's compensation issue that could result in hundreds of > thousands of > dollars in liability. THAT'S why the 4 page form. Well, if you have an on-going health problem, you should know the potential consequences. Myself, I know of no reason why a cut to your foot should pose a greater problem than a cut to anywhere else. It's the personal responsibility again. If I do something daft, I accept the responsibility myself. If I get my fingers in the saw, I did it. No blame attaches to the workshop manager. So with many other things. Frank Wood ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:53:47 EST Subject: Re: OT: First-aid & liability In a message dated 31/12/06 21:38:03 GMT Standard Time, ladesigners [at] juno.com writes: > Handing a person a band-aid that they will put on themselves appears > risk-free, as long as it is packaged so as to maintain sterility. Fer cry eye Eye! In my kitchen and bathroom, there is a reel of adhesive bandage. I apply it to injuries as needed. It solves most problems. Frank Wood ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 01:34:52 GMT Subject: Re: OT: First-aid & liability Message-Id: <20061231.173515.833.970214 [at] webmail34.lax.untd.com> Dear Frank, Yes, it solves most problems; especially the one about suing yourself. /s/ Richard _____________________________ >Handing a person a band-aid that they will put on themselves appears = risk-free, as long as it is packaged so as to maintain sterility. = ____________________ Fer cry eye Eye! In my kitchen and bathroom, there is a reel of = adhesive bandage. I apply it to injuries as needed. It solves most = problems. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 20:39:57 -0600 From: "Tim Catlett" Subject: Re: first aid stuff In-Reply-To: References: Frank wrote: >It's the personal responsibility again. If I do something daft, I accept the >responsibility myself. If I get my fingers in the saw, I did it. No blame >attaches to the workshop manager. So with many other things. Frank, Stupidity is not a shelter for the owner or manager of a shop, especially if it can be proved that improper or insufficient training was instituted, improper or insufficient safeguards were in place (or proper ones missing), or (in the case of working with students) insufficient supervision was provided. Personal responsibility cannot extend to the entire workshop as a blanket legal concept. There are too many other factors at work in almost every workplace incident to make that concept workable legally. I will say however that I agree with you that discussing the legality of providing bandages is a monumentally ridiculous discussion. The existence of a well-equipped first aid kit is not only necessary but required in many legal structures and the application of first-aid to a person who needs it should always trump any legal concerns. Being aware of those legalities is discussed in any well designed first aid course as is the appropriate application of them. The coagulant that started this discussion should not be considered a dispensed medication particularly given its properties which are well disclosed and discussed both on the website and in the MSDS. I am of the personal opinion that its usage should and would prudently be understood as being equivalent to bandages and the like in any legal discussion. If I am wrong about this then I would like to hear chapter and verse that shows me so from one of the many lawyers we have here. -- Tim Catlett Asst. Technical Director - Shorewood High School Drama Technical Director - Milwaukee Shakespeare Director of Outreach/Membership - ISETSA (International Secondary Education Theatre Health & Safety Association) Cell: 414.975.4424 EMAIL: catlett.lizardsdream [at] gmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Steven Santos" Subject: RE: First Aid Supplies Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 22:36:08 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: I was an EMT for 6 years, an instructor for the AHA, ARC, Instructor-trainer for ASHI, blah blah blah. The short answer is that the laws vary from state to state (and country to country), so you have to check locally for an absolute answer. Under most good sam laws around the world, you can treat a person (including a minor without parental consent) up to your level of training. Most laws further restrict this to include only your scope of practice, which has no real effect on the laymen other than being why you can't give meds, but does affect EMT's and other higher trained responders. In other words if you have basic first aid or CPR training, you can do what you were trained to do. If your training does not include care for a broken bone, you can't splint it or set it, or put screws into it, etc. If you read about doing a trake with a bic pen and a stake knife, but have no formal training in it, you can't perform the trake (even if its needed and looks like fun). To bring this directly on topic, if your training does not / did not include application of a clotting agent, liquid bandage or other first aid novelty, good sam may not cover you (again, local laws). On the other hand, if these are *OTC first aid products* (as opposed to OTC medications), and your venue/work/whatever chooses to put them in the kits and provide you proper training in its usage, then you generally can use them and be covered under good sam. So what constitutes and emergency, and when does good sam kick in? Again, check the local laws, but in general, something is considered an emergency if any of the following is true/present: - Active bleeding - Respitory distress (ANY breathing issue) - A major MOI is present (car crash, major fall, etc) - Altered mental status - Significant burn - Life is at risk - Or any other situation where a reasonable person would want medical help under the circumstances. When it comes to treating a child, in an emergency you can give them first aid treatment up to your level of training. Medications is a bit trickier, and get into that whole scope of practice thing. Unless you have the letters EMT (-B, -I or -P), NP/RN-P (Nurse Practitioner), PA (Physicians Assistant), or MD (medical doctor) after your name, your training does not include the administering of any medications, so you can't give them (that's why an MD has to sign off on giving it to kids, they are prescribing it, and you are giving it under their license). IF you do have these letters after you name, you should already know this (or need to take CEU/CEC hours on this...) So why can a parent give a child an OTC med at home, but can't authorize a school/camp/etc to do so? I really don't have a good answer, other than that's what the laws say. Now, to confuse it all further, with a prescribed med, you can assist a patient (including a minor) in self-administering a med (epi pens, inhalers, nitro, etc), but you can't administer it to them yourself (again, that's what the law says). You can do the same with OTC meds, but not for a minor (have to be 18 to buy / posses an OTC med). > To bring this back closer to the topic at hand, what was the policy > for deployment of bandaids for minor cuts or abrasions? Here is our policy: Simply Circus Policies and Procedures Page 11 Illness / Injury Everyday injuries such as bumps, bruises, scrapes, etc. may occur and will be treated as needed. In more serious cases, the parents will be contacted first and if we are unable to reach the parents the emergency contact person will be notified. If required, immediate medical care will be sought at the nearest hospital, or via the local emergency services system (911). Children who become ill during the program will be sent home with the parent or emergency contact person. We run an active program, and children need to fully participate in the day. Please keep your child home if he/she becomes ill. Medication Any special medications your child needs or special conditions your child suffers from must be disclosed on the health form. This will enable our staff to be better prepared for emergencies, which may develop through the course of the summer. If a child is required to take any medications while at camp, we must have a medication authorization form on file. Any medication must be given to staff by the parents and must be in original pharmacy containers and appropriately labeled (BY STATE LAW WE CAN NOT ACCEPT MEDICATION THAT IS NOT IN ORIGIONAL PHARMACY CONTAINERS. Any and all medication shall remain locked until needed by the child. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Santos Director, Simply Circus, Inc. Email: Steven [at] SimplyCircus.com Mail: PO BOX 620753 Newton, MA 02462 Phone: 781-799-4938 eFax: 309-214-0899 Web: www.SimplyCircus.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net]On Behalf Of Rigger > Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 12:34 PM > To: Stagecraft > Subject: Re: First Aid Supplies > > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > At 10:40 AM -0500 12/31/06, Jim and Dave Productions wrote: > > >For a child (again, anyone under 18) to recieve basic medical > >treatment involving the administering of any medicine (over the > >counter included) BOTH the Parent (or guardian) AND a MD designated by > >the parent must approve in writing. Even Perscriptions need to be > >accounted for in writing(not just by bringing in the bottle). At the > >camp I ran, we had a form signed in advance with a list of medicines > >we would have on hand for approval (or non approval) by the parent and > >family Dr.. Every time a kid went to the nurse with a headache, bug > >bite, etc., flu she would check this form before administering > >anything. In the rare event that a form was incomplete, a couple > >simple phone calls and promises to fax in the written approval and we > >were on our way. Not really a big deal in most cases. > > > To bring this back closer to the topic at hand, what was the policy > for deployment of bandaids for minor cuts or abrasions? > > -- > Dave Vick > rigger [at] tds.net > 20/20 Design > > "Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, > or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't > help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal > capital crime, the sentence is death, there is no appeal, > and execution is carried out automatically and without pity." > > --Robert Heinlein > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1236.205.215.253.166.1167625128.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 20:18:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: first aid stuff From: "Bill Nelson" > Well, if you have an on-going health problem, you should know the > potential > consequences. Myself, I know of no reason why a cut to your foot should > pose a greater problem than a cut to anywhere else. Diabetics often have poor circulation in their extremities, especially their lower legs and feet. Bill ------------------------------ From: "Steven Santos" Subject: RE: OT: First-aid & liability Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:25:10 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > Good Samaritan laws do NOT protect the unlicensed practice of > medicine in many cases, but the use of an AED is virtually always > protected; I am unaware of any published case where someone was held > liable for using a AED in the manner that the manufacturer intended. Liability is low. SAED's and AED's are only used on dead people. If you were dead, and now your alive because the AED was used on you, you will have a hell of a time proving you were harmed by it any more than if it wasn't used. Same goes for CPR. Their are cases where people have been sued for having/using AED's (City of Boston vs John Hancock). Good sam laws are designed to remove the liability risk when acting as a good Samaritan. They are designed to let people provide help without fear of being sued for it. They are powerful laws that work. Where these laws exist, you should have no fear of liability for providing first aid, so long as you do what you have been trained to do. > An emergency tracheotomy is somewhat riskier for both the patient and > the Good Samaritan, but even THAT intervention should be excusable if > the person was choking and the Heimlich Maneuver was was ineffective. All of the protocols I know for giving an emergency tracheotomy include many steps between the Heimlich and an emergency tracheotomy. Its one of the big reasons you only do what you have been trained to do. Even then, while I have had classes on performing an emergency tracheotomy, I am not comfortable with the skill, and I can't imagine ever trying it. Oh, and we had a discussion on this list along the defib/first aid liability lines back in March. Well worth reading, it had a LOT of good info. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Santos Director, Simply Circus, Inc. Email: Steven [at] SimplyCircus.com Mail: PO BOX 620753 Newton, MA 02462 Phone: 781-799-4938 eFax: 309-214-0899 Web: www.SimplyCircus.com ------------------------------ From: MissWisc [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:26:53 EST Subject: Re: first aid stuff billn [at] peak.org writes: << Diabetics often have poor circulation in their extremities, especially their lower legs and feet. >> And many people have the condition but are not aware of it. Kristi ------------------------------ From: "Steven Santos" Subject: RE: OT: First-aid & liability Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:41:52 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > That is why I recommend to my clients to mount one adjacent to fire > extinguisher or fire hose cabinets in public places, with an alarm. And remember, in most areas the alarm is to prevent theft ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Santos Director, Simply Circus, Inc. Email: Steven [at] SimplyCircus.com Mail: PO BOX 620753 Newton, MA 02462 Phone: 781-799-4938 eFax: 309-214-0899 Web: www.SimplyCircus.com > /s/ Richard > _________________________________ > Cogent and informative, but what about handing someone a band-aid? > > And how did we get from coagulant strips to AEDs? > > -- > Dave Vick > > > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1272.205.215.253.166.1167627041.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 20:50:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: OT: First-aid & liability From: "Bill Nelson" > used. Same goes for CPR. Their are cases where people have been sued for > having/using AED's (City of Boston vs John Hancock). Could you provide the cite? A Google search in the phrase returns nothing. Bill ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1276.205.215.253.166.1167627793.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:03:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: OT: First-aid & liability From: "Bill Nelson" > Liability is low. SAED's and AED's are only used on dead people. That's a bit of an exaggeration. When a person goes into ventricular fibrillation, they are not dead. But they will be in a very short time unless a somewhat coordinated heartbeat is restored. Bill ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "RD" Subject: RE: Semi OT: New first aid stuff Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 22:56:33 -0700 Message-ID: <01b701c72d69$9f8f8eb0$6501a8c0 [at] doom1> In-Reply-To: In my tours of about 100 facilities this last year I saw AED's and asked teachers and others if they knew what to do. 87% said that they were? Going to be instructed as to what to do. Long way to go. Doom -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of ladesigners [at] juno.com Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 10:44 AM To: Stagecraft Subject: Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- I'm in favor of AED's being available for all to use, even on lawyers. /s/ Richard ________________________________________ > >IF you have the budget, an AED is really nice to have in the venue. > > Just don't use them to save lawyers. I think they only work on humans. ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "RD" Subject: RE: Semi OT: New first aid stuff Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 22:56:33 -0700 Message-ID: <01b801c72d69$a00de670$6501a8c0 [at] doom1> In-Reply-To: Me too. Dr. Doom -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of ladesigners [at] juno.com Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 10:44 AM To: Stagecraft Subject: Re: Semi OT: New first aid stuff For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- I'm in favor of AED's being available for all to use, even on lawyers. /s/ Richard ________________________________________ > >IF you have the budget, an AED is really nice to have in the venue. > > Just don't use them to save lawyers. I think they only work on humans. ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20070101072900.10063.qmail [at] web50704.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:28:59 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Sorensen Subject: new ideas for the stage tech olympics... In-Reply-To: ran across this on the Popular Science website... http://tinyurl.com/y7ebs7 enjoy! (p.s. I used tinyurl just for you, CB, and I am a squint!) Michael Sorensen Proton Lighting and Video "We positively charge up your show!" Phone: 520-232-3540 Email: chaoscon666 [at] yahoo.com "It's all just a scam, isn't it? You get those actors to put on a show, just so you can have a good reason to play with your toys." --Christopher Stasheff, "A Slight Detour" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #1071 ******************************