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Subject: Stagecraft Digest #24
Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 03:01:52 -0700
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For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
   http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
---------------------------------------------------

Stagecraft Digest, Issue #24

 1. Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
    by "Delbert Hall" <halld [at] etsu.edu>
 2. Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
    by "Joseph Fertitta" <faust65 [at] hotmail.com>
 3. Re: Counterweight Rigging
    by "Booth, Dennis" <boothd [at] ncarts.edu>
 4. Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
    by Bsapsis [at] aol.com
 5. Food for thought
    by FREDERICK W FISHER <fwfisher [at] facstaff.wisc.edu>
 6. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by FREDERICK W FISHER <fwfisher [at] facstaff.wisc.edu>
 7. Re: Prepare for an aneurism...
    by Chris Davis <cdavis309 [at] optonline.net>
 8. Drape fullness or not?
    by b Ricie <b_ricie [at] yahoo.com>
 9. Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
    by Rigger <rigger [at] tds.net>
10. Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
    by Jerry Durand <jdurand [at] interstellar.com>
11. Powerpoint Background
    by Tony Miller <tony.miller10 [at] btopenworld.com>
12. Re: Counterweight Rigging
    by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com
13. Re: Prepare for an aneurism...
    by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com
14. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
15. Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
    by CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
16. Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
    by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com
17. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by Bruce Purdy <bpurdy [at] rochester.rr.com>
18. Re: Counterweight Rigging
    by usctd [at] columbia.sc
19. Overhead...
    by "William Knapp" <will [at] thebase.com>
20. Black Masking
    by "William Knapp" <will [at] thebase.com>
21. Re: Counterweight Rigging
    by CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
22. Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
    by usctd [at] columbia.sc
23. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
24. Re: Counterweight Rigging
    by Rigger <rigger [at] tds.net>
25. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by Rigger <rigger [at] tds.net>
26. Re: Counterweight Rigging
    by "Mike Rock" <rockm [at] new.rr.com>
27. Re: Drapes in High Schools
    by Bruce Purdy <bpurdy [at] rochester.rr.com>
28. Re: Drapes in High Schools
    by Simon Shuker <simonef [at] emirates.net.ae>
29. Re: Automation Grenade
    by Bruce Purdy <bpurdy [at] rochester.rr.com>
30. Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
    by usctd [at] columbia.sc
31. Re: Counterweight Rigging
    by "Joseph Fertitta" <faust65 [at] hotmail.com>
32. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by MissWisc [at] aol.com
33. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by Rigger <rigger [at] tds.net>
34. Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
    by Rigger <rigger [at] tds.net>
35. Re: Counterweight Rigging
    by MissWisc [at] aol.com
36. Re: Overhead...
    by Tony Miller <tony.miller10 [at] btopenworld.com>
37. Re: Powerpoint Background
    by FREDERICK W FISHER <fwfisher [at] facstaff.wisc.edu>
38. Anyone have an old Designer's Remote for the Strand GSX Board lyi	ng around
    by "Mason, Richard" <rmason [at] richmond.edu>
39. Re: Black Masking
    by "Joe Meils" <bipolarber [at] cyberback.com>
40. Re: Powerpoint Background
    by "Tony Deeming" <deeming.tony [at] btinternet.com>
41. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by "Tony Deeming" <deeming.tony [at] btinternet.com>
42. Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
    by usctd [at] columbia.sc
43. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by "Joe Meils" <bipolarber [at] cyberback.com>
44. Automated Rigging (was Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ..)
    by "Delbert Hall" <halld [at] etsu.edu>
45. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
46. Re: EGA monitors: was Microvision disks
    by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
47. Re: Microvision disks? 
    by Brian Aldous <brian [at] tany.com>
48. Re: Censorship, good taste, and integrity. ;)
    by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
49. Re: Microvision disks? 
    by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
50. Re: Counterweight Rigging
    by <gbierly [at] dejazzd.com>
51. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by Richard Niederberg <ladesigners [at] juno.com>
52. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by "Jon Ares" <jonares [at] hevanet.com>
53. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by MissWisc [at] aol.com
54. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by "James JG Kosmatka" <james [at] cleveland-theater.com>
55. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by "Andy Leviss" <Andy [at] Andy-L.com>
56. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by Rigger <rigger [at] tds.net>
57. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by "Jason" <OneOccy [at] hotmail.com>
58. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by "Tony Deeming" <deeming.tony [at] btinternet.com>
59. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by Richard Niederberg <ladesigners [at] juno.com>
60. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by Richard Niederberg <ladesigners [at] juno.com>
61. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by Richard Niederberg <ladesigners [at] juno.com>
62. Re: Counterweight Rigging
    by "Mike Marriott" <mike.stagelist [at] optusnet.com.au>

*** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject
*** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to
*** one message subject in each reply.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Delbert Hall" <halld [at] etsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 05:57:11 -0400
Organization: ETSU
Message-ID: <000001c446f5$a5604c60$6400a8c0 [at] delbert>
In-Reply-To: <list-3524721 [at] prxy.net>

Wow - I really hit a never.  OK...

Mr. Diaz states the point of his article very clearly in the very first
three sentences.  He first sentence he states, "In six years, automation
has taken away almost 50% of our jobs."   And in the third sentence he
asks, "How can Local One fight this?" The rest of the article is his
answer to this question - scare people by claiming that stage automation
is unsafe and saying things like "This could cause serious injuries" and
"Anyone who steps into the theatre could be in danger."  This is what I
think the article is about.

My point (although not made a clearly as it could have been made) is
that this is not the first time that technology has cost jobs in the
theatre.  Computerized lighting consoles were bad-mouthed in the 1970's
as taking away the operator's ability to "feel" the cue.  Well, 30 years
later computerized consoles are the norm and very few people are
suggesting that we go back to autotransformers.  

Yes, there were problems with some of the early consoles, and I am not
saying that stage automation is perfect either.  I just do not see it to
be the huge safety problem that Diaz paints it as. Where are all the
stories of stage automation accidents?  I don't see them. I agree
totally with Big Fred who said, "It reads to me like propaganda."

Last, if automation systems are not being properly maintained, that is a
safety problem.  But poor maintenance is not a problem that is unique to
automation, as we all know.  If poor maintenance of equipment as a
safety issue was the point of the article, then Mr. Diaz should listen
to a very experienced gentleman in the stage rigging industry who very
recently said, "Working with counterweights can be dangerous.  It is by
far the leading cause of death and serious injury in this industry."  

IMHO Mr. Diaz is really more concerned about jobs more than safety
(re-read the first three sentences of the article) and claiming safety
as the issue is a smokescreen.  


-Delbert




------------------------------

From: "Joseph Fertitta" <faust65 [at] hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 06:44:18 -0400
Message-ID: <BAY16-F50RoFKefiWiD00055c03 [at] hotmail.com>

I am by no means an expert on rigging at all. I spent a short bit of time 
with a rigging company doing small installs and recently helped with the 
inspection of the theatre that I believe brought up the Counterweight 
rigging thread.

Here is what I will say from two recent experiences, one with automation, 
one with a manual system.

The manual systems grand drape purchase line snapped, the batten went up, 
the arbor was mostly down, no one was injured, but the performers were 
frightened by the incident, as was I (as the TD on the show). The management 
did not see the reason for having the rest of the system looked at. 
FRUSTRATION!!! This was at a High School, imagine how that would have gone. 
The original performing arts high school kills performers with improperly 
maintained equipment. It would look great in the papers.

Head to a year from that point (which brings us to last month, May). At a 
reputable college, in a maintained, recently inspected theatre, a chain 
hoist holding up a large steel ceiling decides to have a fault. Luckily this 
fault was minor. The small retaining ring on the side of the chain hoist 
that holds the dead end of the chain broke. The excess chain and the bag 
came flying from grid height almost all the way to the floor. No one was 
hurt, a small hole in the scenery was the only damage.

In example 1 if someone would have taken the time to look at the lines they 
could have noted the wear on the hemp or the aircraft cable, rope locks, 
shives, etc...

In example 2 no one would have been able to look at the unit and notice that 
the metal was weak and not meant to perform the task it was being asked to 
do. No one would know if a gear was bad, or a clutch was about to break. 
Chain hoists aren't smart and cannot tell you when they are sick. Manual 
counterweight systems can't either but atleast all of their workings are 
exposed and easily inspected.

There have been other instances where I have seen motorized equipment break 
with little to no signs at all of wear, abuse, or faulty parts.

Just my humble opinion on the matter.

Joseph Fertitta

R.M.E.
High School for Performing and Visual Arts
Houston, TX

Theatre Design & Production
University of Cincinnati - College Conservatory of Music
Cincinnati, OH

_________________________________________________________________
Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN 
Premium! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200439ave/direct/01/


------------------------------

Subject: Re: Counterweight Rigging
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 07:50:16 -0400
Message-ID: <DEF9C5FC613BEC46BB08F973317F22A7028BE5 [at] email.ncarts.edu>
From: "Booth, Dennis" <boothd [at] ncarts.edu>

Bill,

You might also have mentioned that properly installed wire rope clip
terminations are only 80% efficient, while properly swaged nicopress
fittings provide nearly 100% efficiency.  Big difference, no matter how
many clips you might choose to use.

DGB



Dennis Gill Booth, Technical Director

  North Carolina School of the Arts=20
  School of Design and Production=20
  1553 South Main Street=20
  PO Box 12189=20
  Winston-Salem, NC   27117-2189=20

*	Voice:  (336)770-3232 x127=20
*	FAX:   (336)770-3213=20
*	Email: boothd [at] ncarts.edu=20
*	D&P URL: http://www.ncarts.edu/ncsaprod/designandproduction/=20
*	Faculty URL: http://faculty.ncarts.edu/dandp/booth/


-----Original Message-----
From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of
Bsapsis [at] aol.com
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 11:04 PM
To: Stagecraft
Subject: Re: Counterweight Rigging

For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
   http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
---------------------------------------------------


My turn?  I don't want a turn.  I just flew in from Helsinki via
Stockholm=20
and boy are my arms tired....

Anyway

Cloves hitches do reduce wire rope ratings but I have never been able to

break a piece of 1/4" wire rope at the hitch.  It has always broken
above the=20
hitch.  Always.  But, the wire rope guys say don't tie knots in wire
rope and who=20
am I to argue?  So I don't.

Two clips are required for sizes up to and including 3/8".  7/16" and
higher=20
get three.  Except in California where by law all sizes get three.
(stupid=20
politicians....good salesperson)

Oval swage fittings, be they Nicopress or Loos are indeed preferred.


----------------------------------------------=20
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content and is believed to be clean.
----------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Bsapsis [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <146.2acde589.2dec85be [at] aol.com>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 08:57:34 EDT
Subject: Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...


In a message dated 5/31/04 6:04:58 AM, halld [at] etsu.edu writes:

<< Wow - I really hit a never.  OK...>>

Freudian slip?

<<
Mr. Diaz states the point of his article very clearly in the very first
three sentences.  He first sentence he states, "In six years, automation
has taken away almost 50% of our jobs."   And in the third sentence he
asks, "How can Local One fight this?" The rest of the article is his
answer to this question - scare people by claiming that stage automation
is unsafe and saying things like "This could cause serious injuries" and
"Anyone who steps into the theatre could be in danger."  This is what I
think the article is about.
>>

Yeah.  So?  That's what I said in the first paragraph of my post.

<<
My point (although not made a clearly as it could have been made) is
that this is not the first time that technology has cost jobs in the
theatre.  Computerized lighting consoles were bad-mouthed in the 1970's
as taking away the operator's ability to "feel" the cue.  Well, 30 years
later computerized consoles are the norm and very few people are
suggesting that we go back to autotransformers.  

Yes, there were problems with some of the early consoles, and I am not
saying that stage automation is perfect either.  I just do not see it to
be the huge safety problem that Diaz paints it as. Where are all the
stories of stage automation accidents?  I don't see them. I agree
totally with Big Fred who said, "It reads to me like propaganda."
>>

OK.  I disagree.  Fortunately, we're allowed to do that in this country.

<<
Last, if automation systems are not being properly maintained, that is a
safety problem.  But poor maintenance is not a problem that is unique to
automation, as we all know.  If poor maintenance of equipment as a
safety issue was the point of the article, then Mr. Diaz should listen
to a very experienced gentleman in the stage rigging industry who very
recently said, "Working with counterweights can be dangerous.  It is by
far the leading cause of death and serious injury in this industry."  
>>

You have taken that statement out of context and used it to promote your 
argument.  It's use is totally inappropriate for this argument.  (Care to tell the 
nice readers who the "very experienced gentleman" is?)

<<
IMHO Mr. Diaz is really more concerned about jobs more than safety
(re-read the first three sentences of the article) and claiming safety
as the issue is a smokescreen. 
>> 

Once again, I disagree.  But we get to do that.  I also don't think you 
understood my post.  But that's OK too.  As for John's article, I'll be seeing him 
on Monday and I can ask him what his intentions were when he wrote it.

Bill S.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 08:03:50 -0500
From: FREDERICK W FISHER <fwfisher [at] facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: Food for thought
Message-id: <2ffb812f9710.2f97102ffb81 [at] wiscmail.wisc.edu>

> 
>    Wal*Mart is too big and dominant in the market place, but they 
> are not
> and never will be the *Only* place to buy things. Even if they did 
> run every
> other store in town out of business, there is always the internet.
>    I admit I don't really understand what you mean by "Politically
> motivated" when it comes to music. Do you mean "Taste motivated"?
> 
> Bruce
> -- 
> Bruce Purdy

I assume it comes down to making money.  People can see whatever you do as politically motivated.  Wal-Mart carries edited versions of albums and gets castigated.  Disney has a gay/lesbian friendly policy at its parks and in the workplace and they get castigated by another group.  We all have to choose where we spend our dollar, whether it is at the local big box store or on line or the local mom and pop (if there is such a thing anymore).  I tend to buy from retailers who give me good service and a reasonable price.
I don't particularily like Clear Channel and the way they control entertainment and labor in this country.  On the other hand, they came through and backed a local fireworks show that was about to be cancelled for lack of funds.  We all have to make compormises.
How about your own facilities?  Do you censor what is presented there?  We do to the extent of what we book ourselves, but don't for people who rent the facility.  Sometimes students will ask us if we will allow them to do something outrageous and we tell them they can do and say what they want, except smoke cigarettes, cigars or other things on stage or commit felonies.  So we censor too.  If asked, we sometimes ask if their parents are coming to see the show and that makes them think a bit. (BG).
Fred Fisher




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 08:15:31 -0500
From: FREDERICK W FISHER <fwfisher [at] facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
Message-id: <2f8a162feca4.2feca42f8a16 [at] wiscmail.wisc.edu>


> 
> As Steeve Vajk astutely observed:
> >It's a free market, which means you are NOT ENTITLED to make 
> money doing 
> anything. No matter 
> >what you do, it has no intrinsic monetary value. Value only comes 
> from the 
> market.
> 
> We are free in the USA to attempt almost anything we wish.  But 
> I'm afraid 
> that the "Lottery" mentality of our society has permeated the 
> artistic community 
> (music, movies, video, theatre) to the point where many are 
> expecting a 
> jackpot or a cash cow.  The best way to cash in is to pander to 
> the lowest common 
> denominator in the marketplace.
> 
> Where is the art of today that ennobles and lifts and inspires?
> 
> Steve Vanciel
> Orlando, FL

See the Arts and Leisure section in the NYTimes yesterday about "Avenue Q" 
being the first musical this year to earn back its investment.  I found 
the information about the economics of Broadway interesting.
Fred  


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 10:04:43 -0400
From: Chris Davis <cdavis309 [at] optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Prepare for an aneurism...
In-reply-to: <list-3523977 [at] prxy.net>
Message-id: <5.1.0.14.0.20040531100329.009f0510 [at] mail-hub.optonline.net>

At 06:56 PM 5/30/2004 -0400, Frank Wood wrote:

>I don't, but thank you for the thought There is a North Country proverb which
>runs, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me".


Frank, it's great to have you back!

As you can see, you've been missed.

Chris D.


__________________________________
Chris Davis             jstraw20 [at] yahoo.com
Asst. Lighting Supervisor
Queens Theater In The Park



------------------------------

Message-ID: <20040531143314.2741.qmail [at] web50607.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 07:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: b Ricie <b_ricie [at] yahoo.com>
Subject: Drape fullness or not?
In-Reply-To: <list-3530351 [at] prxy.net>

The wisdom of my boss found what I think is the best
way around the fullness or not issue. When he ordered
the new drapery he simply ordered it a bit long( or
wide). Both legs and boarders, if ya want fullness, it
can be tied in and you will still have enough drape to
mask what you need to. No fullness, simply tie it flat
and tie back the edges. Options people...options.

=====
Brian Rice 
b_ricie [at] yahoo.com


	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun.  Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/ 

------------------------------

Message-Id: <p06110403bce0f7572954 [at] [168.192.123.250]>
In-Reply-To: <list-3530345 [at] prxy.net>
References: <list-3530345 [at] prxy.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 10:54:33 -0400
From: Rigger <rigger [at] tds.net>
Subject: Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...

At 5:57 AM -0400 5/31/04, Delbert Hall wrote:

>  I agree totally with Big Fred who said, "It reads to me
>  like propaganda."
>
>  <snip>
>
>  IMHO Mr. Diaz is really more concerned about jobs more
>  than safety (re-read the first three sentences of the article)
>  and claiming safety as the issue is a smokescreen.

<aol>
ME TOO!!!
</aol>

-- 
Dave Vick, IATSE #274
   Head Electrician,
   The Wharton Center for Performing Arts at Michigan State University
   <http://www.whartoncenter.com/>

    Carpe Per Diem

------------------------------

Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.0.20040531081127.0388f198 [at] localhost>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 08:32:54 -0700
From: Jerry Durand <jdurand [at] interstellar.com>
Subject: Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
In-Reply-To: <list-3531357 [at] prxy.net>
References: <list-3530345 [at] prxy.net>
 <list-3531357 [at] prxy.net>

At 07:54 AM 5/31/2004, Dave Vick wrote:
><aol>
>ME TOO!!!
></aol>

Dave, I have to agree with you and others on this one.  While I'm SURE 
there are unsafe automation systems, nothing in that letter said how hiring 
more union workers was going to fix that.  He COULD have said more people 
were needed to inspect/maintain the systems (manual or automation), he didn't.

There are also unsafe manual systems of various types, unsafe stages (had a 
termite inspection lately?), and just plain unsafe people (you know who 
they are).  We DO need to be safer.

As to putting people to work, every politician promises to "create 
jobs".  If the jobs were really needed, he/she wouldn't need to create 
them.  I designed equipment that was given to a Middle Eastern medical 
university on a US humanitarian aid grant.  The university didn't ask for 
or need this particular equipment, an embassy worker said this was commonly 
done to boost weak American businesses.  The good news is that while I was 
at the university I was able to show them how to use the equipment for 
something they did need (but it wasn't really designed for).

Maybe we SHOULD convert some businesses back to manual operations to help 
out those without jobs (ditches can be dug just fine with shovels, 
sometimes even better).  BUT, the overall amount of money spent on labor 
would have to be about the same as it was with automation (including the 
automation costs), so everyone will be paid less but more will be 
working.  You can't have high pay AND full employment, there are just too 
many people to do the limited work that needs to be done.


----------
Jerry Durand
Durand Interstellar, Inc.
219 Oak Wood Way
Los Gatos, California 95032-2523  USA
tel:  +1 408 356-3886
fax:  +1 408 356-4659
web:  www.interstellar.com



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 17:49:08 +0100
Subject: Powerpoint Background
From: Tony Miller <tony.miller10 [at] btopenworld.com>
Message-ID: <BCE12094.4671%tony.miller10 [at] btopenworld.com>

I got to put a Powerpoint Presentation together and I'm sick to death of the
normal backgrounds and templates. Can anyone point me in the direction of
something a bit more classy, preferably with a theatre theme to it. I also
have Apple Keynote if there is a background for that.

Cheers

Tony Miller.


------------------------------

From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <1de.2168ee59.2decc39c [at] aol.com>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 13:21:32 EDT
Subject: Re: Counterweight Rigging

In a message dated 31/05/04 02:28:07 GMT Daylight Time, slitterst [at] ithaca.edu 
writes:

> > 1) Some of the lift lines were tied in clove hitches around the batten
>  > and then terminated with two cable clips.  (Since a clove hitch 
>  > weakensthe cable by 40%, I would consider this unacceptable).
>  
>  Ick.  The only appropriate attachment to the pipe is trim chain or a 
batten 
>  clamp.  Trim chain usually has a higher rating.

Strong agreement. Knots of any kind in wire rope, apart from proper splices, 
are bad news. On the other hand, taking a couple of turns round the pipe, with 
no overlap, will do no harm. Indeed, it is kinder to the wire than a clipped 
or swaged eye, since the pipe has a larger diameter. But a properly swaged, 
clipped or spliced eye, a rated shackle, and a pipe clamp are the safest way to 
go.


Frank Wood

------------------------------

From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <12f.42e66da3.2decc758 [at] aol.com>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 13:37:28 EDT
Subject: Re: Prepare for an aneurism...

In a message dated 31/05/04 02:34:58 GMT Daylight Time, psyd [at] cox.net writes:

> Somehow, I think that Frank might read these comments with a bit of a self
>  satisfied grin.  He seemed to enjoy 'stirring it up' a bit.  At least, he
>  never backed down form an opportunity...
>  As much as he ticked me off sometimes, I do miss his contributions.

Thanks, Chris. Out of controversy, sometimes comes a good idea. Not often, 
but I think our industry needs a few. The trouble is, the regulatory authorities 
take for ever to catch on. It was ten or so years after mild steel was 
invented that the authorities formulated rules for its use. Meanwhile, railway 
companies were compelled to build bridges out of wrought iron, which is weaker, and 
far more expensive and laborious to produce, or cast iron, which is 
unreliable in tension. The Forth Bridge was the first great steel structure.

Frank Wood

------------------------------

Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040531101537.016ab418 [at] pop.west.cox.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 10:15:37
From: CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)

>    Sorry Chris, but I have to disagree with you.
>If the government passes laws that say something can't be made or sold, that
>is censorship. If a store chooses not to carry the product, it is not.

What you are talking about is the legal definition of censorship.  What I
was referring to is the social action.  Whether their activities are
punishable under the law isn't always a litmus for whether or not they are
actualy wrong.  There are many things that are legally permissable and
still socially unconscionable.

>    I admit I don't really understand what you mean by "Politically
>motivated" when it comes to music. Do you mean "Taste motivated"?

No, I mean politically motivated. Clear Channel recently banned the 'Dixie
Chicks' from some of their radio stations after they made comments in
England that were unfavorable towards the present US regime.. er,
administration.  Disney recently canned Michaels Moore's latest movie
because they didn't like it's political content.  Taking away an artists
venue because the money doesn't agree with the political content is
censorship. While this, too, may not stand up to the 'legal' definition of
censorship, it is clear that these people are being denied an avenue,
previously avalable to them, due to content in thier message that is not
'legally' defined as obscene.
Sure, we can ignore these, but with organizations this powerful, that are
willing to use thier money and power to affect the political and social
world that we live, work, and perform in, its just a matter of time before
they have the ability to control content based on their religious and
political views, and ban that content that doesn't conform.  We're talking
about the beginnings of a threat to civil liberties, and the american way
of life.  And the silly thing is that they're doing it under the guise of
patriotism.  
But hey, it probably isn't a big deal.  I'm keeping a brick of fresh ammo
in the bedroom anyways.
				Chris "Chris" Babbie
				Location Sound
				MON AZ

Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment.  Rates
negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment...

------------------------------

Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040531102735.016ab418 [at] pop.west.cox.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 10:27:35
From: CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
Subject: Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...

>Sounds like this guy has made a bunch of sweeping generalizations about
>the safety of automation in general without having any facts or figures
>to back it up. It reads to me like propaganda. 

Yeah, I got a bit of that, too.  OTOH, I just came of a show where we had
three wagons operated by humans.  The same thing could have been done by
machine, but it wouldn't have been any cheaper (for this short tour) and it
definitely wouldn't have been as much fun.  And, there were times that
having a human at the wheel was a distinct advantage. I've worked shows
that have had both, and I've actually designed and installed automation,
and I think that the decision has to be made on a show-by-show basis.
Having it done automatically just because it is cheaper is just as silly as
having it done by hand just to give a stagehand something to do.
				Chris "Chris" Babbie
				Location Sound
				MON AZ

Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment.  Rates
negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment...

------------------------------

From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <db.be51f89.2deccd57 [at] aol.com>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:03:03 EDT
Subject: Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...

In a message dated 31/05/04 11:04:58 GMT Daylight Time, halld [at] etsu.edu writes:

> My point (although not made a clearly as it could have been made) is
>  that this is not the first time that technology has cost jobs in the
>  theatre.  Computerized lighting consoles were bad-mouthed in the 1970's
>  as taking away the operator's ability to "feel" the cue.  Well, 30 years
>  later computerized consoles are the norm and very few people are
>  suggesting that we go back to autotransformers.  

The means by which the control is exercised are unimportant, 
Autotransformers, thyristors, or whatever. It is the facilities on the console which are 
important. 

Most that I have met offer fully manual control. With a really good operator, 
this solves your 'feel the cue' problem. With a naff operator, building in 
the timing works better.

>  
>  Yes, there were problems with some of the early consoles, and I am not
>  saying that stage automation is perfect either.  I just do not see it to
>  be the huge safety problem that Diaz paints it as. Where are all the
>  stories of stage automation accidents?  I don't see them. I agree
>  totally with Big Fred who said, "It reads to me like propaganda."


Frank Wood

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:03:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
From: Bruce Purdy <bpurdy [at] rochester.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BCE0EBC7.364F%bpurdy [at] rochester.rr.com>
In-Reply-To: <list-3530351 [at] prxy.net>


>> The entire topic of "Censorship" is an emotionally loaded one
> 
> True, but it often goes beyond that. It depnds a lot on who is setting the
> standards, and why. If it is the state for political reasons, it is almost
> invariably wrong.

Welcome back Frank!

    You presented an interesting history lesson, and confirmed my point that
Censorship is indeed an emotionally loaded issue.

    However, the topic of discussion was whether one particular chain of
stores has the right to not sell material that they deem unsuitable, and
whether that constitutes Censorship.

    Anyway, it's good to see you back to spice things up again. Now I know
that the Stagecraft list is officially back up!

Bruce
-- 
Bruce Purdy
Technical Director
Smith Opera House



------------------------------

Message-ID: <3644.207.201.197.47.1086028979.squirrel [at] webmail.columbia.sc>
In-Reply-To: <list-3530678 [at] prxy.net>
References: <list-3530678 [at] prxy.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:42:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Counterweight Rigging
From: usctd [at] columbia.sc

I find it interesting that all of the issues in Delberts original post are
discussed in Jays book.   I think the clove hitch with the clips is noted
as a valid connection isn't it?  I don't have the book handy right now.

Obviously the dog clip thing is a joke.  The bolt?  Not great, but hey it
has worked for years, right? Also in Jay's book.

The cable clips depends on manufacturer.  At least that is the literature
I would go to when designing the connection.

The reason I mention the book is because all of these issues are frequent
finds on linesets.  They are nothing new.  I guess Jay realized that for
better or worse he may as well inform people of them.
-- 
Eric Rouse
TD-University of SC, Columbia
Freelance Foyboy

> For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
> your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
>    http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Bill,
>
> You might also have mentioned that properly installed wire rope clip
> terminations are only 80% efficient, while properly swaged nicopress
> fittings provide nearly 100% efficiency.  Big difference, no matter how
> many clips you might choose to use.
>
> DGB
>
>
>
> Dennis Gill Booth, Technical Director
>
>   North Carolina School of the Arts
>   School of Design and Production
>   1553 South Main Street
>   PO Box 12189
>   Winston-Salem, NC   27117-2189
>
> *	Voice:  (336)770-3232 x127
> *	FAX:   (336)770-3213
> *	Email: boothd [at] ncarts.edu
> *	D&P URL: http://www.ncarts.edu/ncsaprod/designandproduction/
> *	Faculty URL: http://faculty.ncarts.edu/dandp/booth/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of
> Bsapsis [at] aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 11:04 PM
> To: Stagecraft
> Subject: Re: Counterweight Rigging
>
> For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
> your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
>    http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
> My turn?  I don't want a turn.  I just flew in from Helsinki via
> Stockholm
> and boy are my arms tired....
>
> Anyway
>
> Cloves hitches do reduce wire rope ratings but I have never been able to
>
> break a piece of 1/4" wire rope at the hitch.  It has always broken
> above the
> hitch.  Always.  But, the wire rope guys say don't tie knots in wire
> rope and who
> am I to argue?  So I don't.
>
> Two clips are required for sizes up to and including 3/8".  7/16" and
> higher
> get three.  Except in California where by law all sizes get three.
> (stupid
> politicians....good salesperson)
>
> Oval swage fittings, be they Nicopress or Loos are indeed preferred.
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content and is believed to be clean.
> ----------------------------------------------
>
>


------------------------------

From: "William Knapp" <will [at] thebase.com>
Subject: Overhead...
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:07:58 -0400
Message-ID: <NIEDJHENHPAHOKCLDGKOIECLFGAA.will [at] thebase.com>
In-Reply-To: <list-3530351 [at] prxy.net>

Hmm.

Tony, when you tour to New York City how will exactly will you check on New
York Health and Safety rules that pertain to theater? Even with the internet
I think you'd have a difficult time.

The Barbican contract does specify that all rigging must meet local
regulations. In prep we discussed the probability that our rigging would not
pass inspection, but we'd wait until we got there.

This production management has done shows in a couple hundred theaters in
more than 30 countries. There's always something local you didn't anticipate
no matter how good your planning. You do what you gotta do, no hard
feelings. Sometimes when you get to the point that you anticipate there may
be a problem, but then again you may just get away with it, you wait for the
other party to make it an issue. That's good and practical production
management.

Our calculations were that our rigging was rated more than 10 to 1, if the
other party disagrees or thinks that's not enough, well the contract says
they can. No hard feelings.

William Knapp
Production Manager
Merce Cunningham Dance Company
55 Bethune St.
New York, NY 10014
+1 212 255 8240
mailto:will [at] thebase.com



------------------------------

From: "William Knapp" <will [at] thebase.com>
Subject: Black Masking
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:08:00 -0400
Message-ID: <NIEDJHENHPAHOKCLDGKOKECLFGAA.will [at] thebase.com>
In-Reply-To: <list-3530351 [at] prxy.net>

warning disagreements ahead:

bigfred [at] mindspring.com wrote:
>Uh, actually, it IS seen. Otherwise, why would you have it at all?
Masking hides *other things* from being seen. Therefore, it's not
unreasonable to want your masking to look nice. I'll agree that you
don't want light splashing all over it - ideally, the audience should
get the impression that there's just a big black hole or shadow up
there. But it is visible to a certain extent.

If you don't want light all over it, then you don't want it to be seen. If
you don't want it to be seen then you want it to catch as little light as
possible. If you want it to catch as little light as possible then you don't
want 3-dimensionality. If you're worrying if it looks good or not then
you're not accepting that the convention is that this is not to be seen.

bigfred [at] mindspring.com wrote:
> That's putting some awfully harsh words in their mouths Sounds to me like
they're saying that they aren't going to presume to tell the customer what
would/wouldn't look good in their space......But honestly, IMHO there are
bigger battles to fight than worrying about masking that's TOO nice.  ; )

I believe that people who sell stuff do have a responsibility to be bit of a
consultant in the sale. Have you never has a salesman say to you "you could
buy that, but this will do what you want better and cost you less". I do
admit that my agita is really about theaters being fit up by consultants in
an inappropriate manner.

Bsapsis [at] aol.com wrote:
>If they are looking at the masking, then the show is in trouble

And if it's got fullness they're a lot more likely to be looking at it.

roadhat [at] earthlink.net wrote:
>For such a multi-use facility I would often recommend a degree of fullness
in the drapery that I would not consider for a strictly performance oriented
venue.

If it's colored I'd agree, if it's black there's no point.

kmdugger [at] earthlink.net wrote:
>When the item upstage of the masking has fullness such as a traveler...

When a black traveler is closed it should be flat. If it's colored then yes,
the border acts as a valence.


Bsapsis [at] aol.com wrote:
>Masking with fullness will better break up any light bounce you may get
than masking without.  Masking with 50% fullness will also hide the vertical
seams of the good because the pleats are sewn at the seams.

Light on the masking?








------------------------------

Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040531103731.016ab418 [at] pop.west.cox.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 10:37:31
From: CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
Subject: Re: Counterweight Rigging

>As for counterweight being on the way out.....IMHO...Yup!  (with a capitol
Y) 
> The Dutch and the Belgians, while not specifically ruling out counterweight 
>systems, have made it illegal to do certain repetitive motions with
weights in 
>hand.

Now, you can take this with as many grains of salt as needed, and consider
the source (NOT a rigger, and not even close...), but I always thought, as
a sound guy, that there was an easier way to do this.
I picture the Nautilus gear at the gym, with the clearly marked weights and
the moveable pin, and I think, "This would be a great way to adjust the
weight on a counterweight system".  Or, am I just and idiot?  Why couldn't
the weights be set up with some sort of choice of available weight without
actually removing it from the arbor?
				Chris "Chris" Babbie
				Location Sound
				MON AZ

Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment.  Rates
negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment...

------------------------------

Message-ID: <3647.207.201.197.47.1086029302.squirrel [at] webmail.columbia.sc>
In-Reply-To: <list-3532158 [at] prxy.net>
References: <list-3532158 [at] prxy.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:48:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
From: usctd [at] columbia.sc

One other major reason for automation, beside cutting labor costs, is
repeatability.  Being able to make the cue exactly the same every day.
Although manual control is largely available it does not always solve the
problem.  I have encountered many situations where people could just not
get the hang of the joystick.  They couldn't "feel the cue". 
Unfortunately, this is not a gameboy!
-- 
Eric Rouse
TD-University of SC, Columbia
Freelance Foyboy

> For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
> your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
>    http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
> In a message dated 31/05/04 11:04:58 GMT Daylight Time, halld [at] etsu.edu
> writes:
>
>> My point (although not made a clearly as it could have been made) is
>>  that this is not the first time that technology has cost jobs in the
>>  theatre.  Computerized lighting consoles were bad-mouthed in the 1970's
>>  as taking away the operator's ability to "feel" the cue.  Well, 30
>> years
>>  later computerized consoles are the norm and very few people are
>>  suggesting that we go back to autotransformers.
>
> The means by which the control is exercised are unimportant,
> Autotransformers, thyristors, or whatever. It is the facilities on the
> console which are
> important.
>
> Most that I have met offer fully manual control. With a really good
> operator,
> this solves your 'feel the cue' problem. With a naff operator, building in
> the timing works better.
>
>>
>>  Yes, there were problems with some of the early consoles, and I am not
>>  saying that stage automation is perfect either.  I just do not see it
>> to
>>  be the huge safety problem that Diaz paints it as. Where are all the
>>  stories of stage automation accidents?  I don't see them. I agree
>>  totally with Big Fred who said, "It reads to me like propaganda."
>
>
> Frank Wood
>


------------------------------

Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040531104240.016ab418 [at] pop.west.cox.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 10:42:40
From: CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)

>I should hope to have educated them 
>that their tastes did not lie in that direction. 
>
>Frank Wood

Holy Deja V, Batman!  Frank's back, and I agree with him!
Three Cheers, Frank, for your post, and for your long awaited return.

				Chris "Chris" Babbie
				Location Sound
				MON AZ

Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment.  Rates
negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment...

------------------------------

Message-Id: <p06110400bce125c30ab9 [at] [168.192.123.250]>
In-Reply-To: <list-3532217 [at] prxy.net>
References: <list-3532217 [at] prxy.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:14:36 -0400
From: Rigger <rigger [at] tds.net>
Subject: Re: Counterweight Rigging

At 10:37 AM -0400 5/31/04, CB wrote:

>  Why couldn't the weights be set up with some sort of
>  choice of available weight without actually removing
>  it from the arbor?



Um, Chris?  If you don't actually remove the weight from the arbor, 
you're still counterweighted for however much weight's on the arbor.

I know you're a sound guy and all, but *really*....

-- 
Dave Vick, IATSE #274
   Head Electrician,
   The Wharton Center for Performing Arts at Michigan State University
   <http://www.whartoncenter.com/>

    Carpe Per Diem

------------------------------

Message-Id: <p06110401bce126a33f17 [at] [168.192.123.250]>
In-Reply-To: <list-3532245 [at] prxy.net>
References: <list-3532245 [at] prxy.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:16:03 -0400
From: Rigger <rigger [at] tds.net>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)

At 10:42 AM -0400 5/31/04, CB wrote:

>  Holy Deja V, Batman!  Frank's back, and I agree with him!

Well, the quiet list was nice while it lasted...


>  Three Cheers, Frank, for your post, and for your long awaited return.

Speak for yourself.

-- 
Dave Vick, IATSE #274
   Head Electrician,
   The Wharton Center for Performing Arts at Michigan State University
   <http://www.whartoncenter.com/>

    Carpe Per Diem

------------------------------

Message-ID: <002901c4473b$95e34a80$176e1745 [at] Spankythelovemachine>
From: "Mike Rock" <rockm [at] new.rr.com>
References: <list-3532217 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Counterweight Rigging
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 13:17:51 -0500

> I picture the Nautilus gear at the gym, with the clearly marked weights
and
> the moveable pin, and I think, "This would be a great way to adjust the
> weight on a counterweight system".  Or, am I just and idiot?  Why couldn't
> the weights be set up with some sort of choice of available weight without
> actually removing it from the arbor?

It seems like a good idea, a pile of iron bring in the arbor put in a pin
and fly out the perfecly balenced lineset. The trouble comes like most
things in practice. Weight changes should be done with the pipe on the
ground so the arbor is in the air, if its possible to somehow invert the
system then its a good idea. until then it is just a pipe dream. Also each
lineset would need enough weight to fill the arbor so that might get a
little costly.

Mike
P.S. wouldn't that law make it illeagal to lift weights for health reasons?


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:17:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Drapes in High Schools
From: Bruce Purdy <bpurdy [at] rochester.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BCE0EEFC.3650%bpurdy [at] rochester.rr.com>
In-Reply-To: <list-3530351 [at] prxy.net>

> But when you're replacing drapes please, PLEASE don't let anyone replace
> their masking with drapes with fullness.

    Some excellent arguments have been made as to why fullness can be a good
thing. I would tend to agree, however that it's better to purchase soft
goods sewn without fullness.

    If there were only one word to describe a good Theatre, I would have to
say it is "Flexible". Flat goods can be bunched on the pipe to create
fullness, but drapes with sewn-in fullness can not be used flat.

    The important thing is to buy enough width that you can have the option
of fullness when appropriate.

Bruce
-- 
Bruce Purdy
Technical Director
Smith Opera House



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:27:53 +0400
From: Simon Shuker <simonef [at] emirates.net.ae>
Subject: Re: Drapes in High Schools
In-reply-to: <list-3532293 [at] prxy.net>
Message-id: <000001c4473d$06131eb0$ececa5d9 [at] Tosh>

Bruce Purdy wrote:-

but drapes with sewn-in fullness can not be used flat.

Depending on the type of heading tape used it is (and we frequently do )
possible to use the same drapes flat and with fullness.

Simon




------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:30:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Automation Grenade
From: Bruce Purdy <bpurdy [at] rochester.rr.com>
Message-ID: <BCE0F20C.3651%bpurdy [at] rochester.rr.com>
In-Reply-To: <list-3530351 [at] prxy.net>

> And finally, his comments about stagehands being better than machines is a
> bit biased, but can you blame him?  He wants his people to be working.

    OK, all you IA members out there, please forgive me for this, I hope you
have a sense of humour. Someone just sent this to me, and it was just too
good not to pass along:



A dedicated Teamsters union worker was attending a convention in Las
Vegas and, as you would expect, decided to check out the local brothels.
When he got to the first one, he asked the Madam, "Is this a union house?

" No," she replied, "I'm sorry it isn't."

"Well, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"

"The house gets $80 and the girls get $20," she answered.

Mightily offended at such unfair dealings, the union man stomped off
down the street in search of a more equitable, hopefully unionized shop.

His search continued until finally he reached a brothel where
the Madam responded, "Why yes sir, this is a union house.
We observe all union rules.

"The man asked, "And if I pay you $100, what cut do the
girls get?"  

The girls get $80 and the house gets $20."

"That's more like it!" the union man said He handed the
Madam $100, looked around the room and pointed to a stunningly
attractive blonde. "I'd like her," he said.

I'm sure you would, sir," said the Madam.
Then she gestured to a 92-year old woman in the corner,
"but Ethel here has 67 years seniority and she's next."



(Ducking for cover)
-- 
Bruce Purdy
Technical Director
Smith Opera House




------------------------------

Message-ID: <3657.207.201.197.47.1086030538.squirrel [at] webmail.columbia.sc>
In-Reply-To: <list-3530345 [at] prxy.net>
References: <list-3524721 [at] prxy.net> <list-3530345 [at] prxy.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 15:08:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
From: usctd [at] columbia.sc

I tend to agree with Bill that automation accidents can be far more
dangerous.  Many times with automation you have a couple things moving. 
And sometimes you have a crapload of things moving.  When you hear that
creak, groan, or snap, where is it coming from?  In a manual system there
is one person for every moving thing(in theory).  That is a lot of eyes on
scenery.  Nowadays, the automation operator is sitting down the long glass
hall form the light board op.  They can’t see or hear what is going on on
deck. Those few seconds before the one troubled winch stops or an E-stop
is engaged is the critical zone.  That is when it becomes a big or huge
problem.  Many times the eyes that should be watching stuff move are
occupied doing other things or have been lulled into a false sense of
security because it has worked 500 times in a row uneventfully.

Ultimately you have something heavy attached to one or two cables that go
to a drum.  If one of those cables snap or something mechanical fails,
that object is coming in quickly.  No counterweight to help there.

If Delbert has never had a teeth clenching experience with a winch, I
commend him.  He is very lucky.  If you are part of the world that uses
big time automation those stories are out there.  It’s just not in the
interest of those companies to advertise their problems.

IMHO shows should have folks whose job it is to do nothing but shadow
moving pieces for the operator.  They should have an open line of
communication to the operators and SM’s to lead the blind in the booth. 
That would add a couple more jobs!

-- 
Eric Rouse
TD-University of SC, Columbia
Freelance Foyboy

> For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
> your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
>    http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Wow - I really hit a never.  OK...
>
> Mr. Diaz states the point of his article very clearly in the very first
> three sentences.  He first sentence he states, "In six years, automation
> has taken away almost 50% of our jobs."   And in the third sentence he
> asks, "How can Local One fight this?" The rest of the article is his
> answer to this question - scare people by claiming that stage automation
> is unsafe and saying things like "This could cause serious injuries" and
> "Anyone who steps into the theatre could be in danger."  This is what I
> think the article is about.
>
> My point (although not made a clearly as it could have been made) is
> that this is not the first time that technology has cost jobs in the
> theatre.  Computerized lighting consoles were bad-mouthed in the 1970's
> as taking away the operator's ability to "feel" the cue.  Well, 30 years
> later computerized consoles are the norm and very few people are
> suggesting that we go back to autotransformers.
>
> Yes, there were problems with some of the early consoles, and I am not
> saying that stage automation is perfect either.  I just do not see it to
> be the huge safety problem that Diaz paints it as. Where are all the
> stories of stage automation accidents?  I don't see them. I agree
> totally with Big Fred who said, "It reads to me like propaganda."
>
> Last, if automation systems are not being properly maintained, that is a
> safety problem.  But poor maintenance is not a problem that is unique to
> automation, as we all know.  If poor maintenance of equipment as a
> safety issue was the point of the article, then Mr. Diaz should listen
> to a very experienced gentleman in the stage rigging industry who very
> recently said, "Working with counterweights can be dangerous.  It is by
> far the leading cause of death and serious injury in this industry."
>
> IMHO Mr. Diaz is really more concerned about jobs more than safety
> (re-read the first three sentences of the article) and claiming safety
> as the issue is a smokescreen.
>
>
> -Delbert
>
>
>
>


------------------------------

From: "Joseph Fertitta" <faust65 [at] hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Counterweight Rigging
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:44:37 -0400
Message-ID: <BAY16-F99jPSFwULnXE00040c5d [at] hotmail.com>


If I was correct about the theatre that Delbert was talking about, it would 
be Jay himself who was doing the inspection.

Joseph Fertitta

R.M.E.
High School for the Performing and Visual Arts
Houston, TX

Theatre Design & Production
University of Cincinnati - College Conservatory of Music
Cincinnati, OH

_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! 
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/


------------------------------

From: MissWisc [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <198.2a3dd6dd.2decd80c [at] aol.com>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:48:44 EDT
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)

Ooooh!! Such good discussion! 

Frank mentioned parents limit what their children watch... that's good 
parenting, not censorship. (And yes, I'm aware of the legal implications of the 
word.) I won't let my son see certain things because he's not ready for them yet 
OR I don't think they have any value for him OR I disagree with what's being 
presented. I'm still not telling the company or artist to not produce them. 
(P.S. Good to hear from you, Frank!) 

StevevETTrn [at] aol.com wrote: <<Where is the art of today that ennobles and 
lifts and inspires?>>

It's there, but it's wrapped up in a lot of trash. We people of the 21st 
century are so different from one another there is rarely one thing which is 
inspirational to everyone. "Art" has become a commercial venture in order for 
artists to survive. We don't have the patronage system anymore. National support is 
almost nil in the USA, and average Joe Citizen is glad of it because he 
doesn't want his tax dollars going to some R/X rated show in New York. Most 2/3D 
artists I know do it as a sideline, as do most musicians and most theatre 
people. Few authors can make a living just writing books, they do the promo tours 
and spend a semester as "writer in residence" at School Q. Even on this list, 
most of us do two, three or more things. We teach, perform/tech, write, consult, 
sell, etc. 

Shakespeare... still great and will continue to be so. First time I saw the 
Henry V St. Crispian's day speech, I was ready to jump out of my seat and go to 
war against France! Battle happened several centuries ago? So what! I've 
shown that movie and that scene to many other people and few have the emotional 
response I did. Want to make kids feel smart? Teach them Shakespeare... they 
KNOW it's not for dummies and they can relate to the themes beacuse what he uses 
is timeless.  Course that means a need for teachers who understand his works 
and HOW to teach those works to modern kids. 

It's my opinion the US school system and the marketing monsters (Saturday 
morning cartoons, Disney, Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon, kids' toy makers) are 
influencing (brain washing?) kids to make them cynical, greedy, and untrusting of 
others. Adults, if present at all, are portrayed as fools to be ridiculed. 
"Cool" kids have lots of toys; therefore if you don't have lots of toys, you're 
not cool. With trained apathy toward other people, it's no wonder to me kids 
don't "get" emotional inspiration from the arts. They are taught to be 
emotionally dead. Ask a question? How DARE they go away from the 
prescribed-by-the-state-legislature/will-be-tested-upon-come-spring/teacher-too-stupid-to-know-the-a
nswer-or-they'd-be-working-somewhere-else-anyway curriculum?

Kids aren't allowed to be emotional with anyone much less anything. ("You 
can't be angry at John, go see the peer mediator!" "What do you mean you don't 
like math!" "I don't care what you think of this story, what did the author 
mean?" "Your tree doesn't look like mine, so you get a D-." "Don't cry! You're 
such a baby!") 

My son gave me a hug the other morning when I picked him up at school. 
Another mom said "That's so sweet! My son won't LET me hug him." I feel sorry for 
both of them. My son doesn't have a choice... I'm gonna hug him anyway because I 
know how important it is for his emotional growth. Fortunately, he likes to 
hug back!

To respond to Steve... here are a few things that inspire and/or ennoble me...
The films The Rookie ("I'm a Texas woman and don't need any man to help me 
keep things running!"), The Sound of Music, Mr. Holland's Opus, Dead Poets 
Society   (Notice the teacher thread???)
A short film called "The Power of One" 
The books "The Magic of Thinking Big" by Dr. Schwartz.
    "As A Man Thinketh" (don't remember the author - can get it on the web)
    "Miracles Happen" by Mary Kay Ash 
    "Permission to Succeed" by Noah St. John

TV show "Judging Amy" shows helping one child or one mom helps whole 
families. 
M*A*S*H inspires me because the bureaucracy found in schools is just as 
convoluted as the military. If it makes sense, it won't happen.

The Olympics. Eddie the Eagle - just BEING there. The 1980 USA hockey team - 
miracles happen. The determination of Kerri Strug. The grace and repetitive 
excellent of Greg Louganis. Athletics is a type of art. 

Autobiographies and biographies of people who've found success against the 
odds. (Has anyone ever been successful without overcoming some obstacle?)

Queen Latifa's rap music and the fact she made the cover of Glamour magazine. 
(Looking HOT, too! About time they had a REAL woman with real curves on the 
cover!!!)

Parts of O magazine. 

Stained glass.
Fenton art glass (useful as well as beautiful).
The Pan Daub (sp?) needlework of Hmong refugees which tell the story of 
fleeing communist oppression and coming to the USA against amazing odds. Again - 
useful and beautiful.

Theatre...
    The vanishing pond in the Lion King - even knowing how the magic happens, 
it's still amazing to see. That "wonderment" audience reaction is IMHO the 
best reason to be in theatre. 
    "1776" when Ben Franklin tells Adams "These men are the best of their 
colonies, but they are just men. Nothing more." Remembering that great things 
come from people who dare to dream. A few years ago there was a national tour of 
it which ended with a scrim painting of the Declaration of Independence. 
Rarely was there a dry eye in the place. 
    "Can you Feel a Brand New Day!"
    "Five Hundred Twenty-Nine Thousand Six-Hundred minutes"
    "Dancing Through Life, here at the OzDust only because dust is what we 
come to!" 

I'd bet many of you are thinking "I don't find THAT inspirational!" Point 
made. It's an individual thing. Art/beauty/inspiration is in the eye of the 
beholder. 

Because Wal-Mart is making these demands on the PRODUCERS, they are not only 
saying what they will sell, they are changing what is MADE and thus sold 
everywhere, not just in their stores. I don't want Wal-Mart telling me what I can 
buy, even if it's not in their store. 

Kristi

------------------------------

Message-Id: <p06110401bce12fc462e8 [at] [168.192.123.250]>
In-Reply-To: <list-3532456 [at] prxy.net>
References: <list-3532456 [at] prxy.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 14:58:03 -0400
From: Rigger <rigger [at] tds.net>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)

At 2:48 PM -0400 5/31/04, MissWisc [at] aol.com wrote:

>  Adults, if present at all, are portrayed as fools to be ridiculed.


Art imitates life.  Absentee parents *are* fools.

Sadly though, too many adults are viewing their children as 
accessories to their lifestyles, rather than their progeny. Just buy 
the brat some more toys and/or sit him down in front of the Boob 
Tube; that'll shut him up & keep him from inconveniencing Mom & Dad. 
Ged knows we're too busy doing Important Cool Stuff to actually spend 
some *time* with Junior.


...But that's a whole 'nother thread, and as an avowed kid-hater, 
I'll just leave it be.

-- 
Dave Vick, IATSE #274
   Head Electrician,
   The Wharton Center for Performing Arts at Michigan State University
   <http://www.whartoncenter.com/>

    Carpe Per Diem

------------------------------

Message-Id: <p06110402bce130e9a784 [at] [168.192.123.250]>
In-Reply-To: <list-3532365 [at] prxy.net>
References: <list-3524721 [at] prxy.net> <list-3530345 [at] prxy.net>
 <list-3532365 [at] prxy.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 15:01:22 -0400
From: Rigger <rigger [at] tds.net>
Subject: Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...

At 3:08 PM -0400 5/31/04, usctd [at] columbia.sc wrote:

>  Nowadays, the automation operator is sitting down the long glass
>  hall form the light board op.  They can=92t see or hear what is going on =
on
>  deck.



Ummmm.....

In every automated show that has come through my=20
theatre's loading doors, the automation operator=20
is sitting right on or over the deck, often right=20
smack in the midst of his or her winches & racks.

What is this "long glass hall" you speak of?

-- 
Dave Vick, IATSE #274
   Head Electrician,
   The Wharton Center for Performing Arts at Michigan State University
   <http://www.whartoncenter.com/>

    Carpe Per Diem

------------------------------

From: MissWisc [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <1c0.19d6e966.2decde27 [at] aol.com>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 15:14:47 EDT
Subject: Re: Counterweight Rigging
Cc: psyd [at] cox.net

In a message dated 5/31/4 1:09:07 PM, psyd [at] cox.net wrote:
<<Why couldn't the weights be set up with some sort of choice of available 
weight without actually removing it from the arbor?>>

You need a way for the weights to not be attached to the arbor at all until 
they're needed. (If they're attached, they are conterweighting the batton ... 
think teeter-totter.) Perhaps some kind of device that hangs below the arbor so 
that weights can rest on the stage floor/load rail floor until needed then 
slide/swing into place?? Clip on with biners? Hmmm... 

Kristi

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 21:22:12 +0100
Subject: Re: Overhead...
From: Tony Miller <tony.miller10 [at] btopenworld.com>
Message-ID: <BCE15284.468F%tony.miller10 [at] btopenworld.com>
In-Reply-To: <list-3532206 [at] prxy.net>

> Tony, when you tour to New York City how will exactly will you check on New
> York Health and Safety rules that pertain to theater? Even with the internet
> I think you'd have a difficult time.

I work with shows all over the world. Mainly around Europe but at least a
couple of times a year somewhere in a different continent. If I'm going
somewhere I can't get information on local rules and conditions then we must
either make a recce  or bite the bullet and employ someone who can sort it
for us. This is often the case when we take a show to the USA, we will
employ a US based Production Manager.
 
> The Barbican contract does specify that all rigging must meet local
> regulations. In prep we discussed the probability that our rigging would not
> pass inspection, but we'd wait until we got there.

So you thought your rigging would fail inspection and you thought you would
wing it and see if you could get away with it. Not rig to the highest common
denominator and the safest standard but wing it and see if you could get
away with it.

 > This production management has done shows in a couple hundred theaters in
> more than 30 countries. There's always something local you didn't anticipate
> no matter how good your planning. You do what you gotta do, no hard
> feelings. Sometimes when you get to the point that you anticipate there may
> be a problem, but then again you may just get away with it, you wait for the
> other party to make it an issue. That's good and practical production
> management.

That is not what I regard as good and practical production management
especially with something as safety critical as rigging. I regard that as
slapdash and have worked with third world touring theatre companies that
couldn't be faulted on their preparation and implementation even though they
are working with tiny budgets and zero backup.

Getting off my high horse now,

Tony Miller.
 



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 15:46:08 -0500
From: FREDERICK W FISHER <fwfisher [at] facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: Powerpoint Background
Message-id: <327c7e328980.328980327c7e [at] wiscmail.wisc.edu>


 I got to put a Powerpoint Presentation together and I'm sick to 
> death of the
> normal backgrounds and templates. Can anyone point me in the 
> direction of
> something a bit more classy, preferably with a theatre theme to 
> it. I also
> have Apple Keynote if there is a background for that.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Tony Miller.

Make your own, it's easy.  Capture an image you want and manipulate it in Photoshop or some equivilent program, save and use.  I do that all the time for our video kiosk.  Let me know off the group if you want more specific instructions.  All the information is there on the task bar.  
Fred


------------------------------

Message-ID: <0F98C8BA43C00C42AFFBE000DA9DDB23011F1676 [at] pollux.richmond.edu>
From: "Mason, Richard" <rmason [at] richmond.edu>
Subject: Anyone have an old Designer's Remote for the Strand GSX Board
 lyi
	ng around
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 17:04:11 -0400

Hello All. I am trying to locate a replacement Designer's Remote for a
Strand GSX Board. Anyone know who might have one or anyone have one they
aren't using and want to get rid of it....?

Rich Mason
Assistant Technical Director
University of Richmond Theatre & Dance Dept
Modlin Center, Room 110B
Richmond, VA 23173

804.287.6836 office
804.287-1841 fax
804.400.7803 cell
rmason [at] richmond.edu

------------------------------

Message-ID: <001801c44760$796aee60$08edbed0 [at] hppav>
From: "Joe Meils" <bipolarber [at] cyberback.com>
References: <list-3532207 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Black Masking
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 17:41:54 -0500

    My feeling has always been that masking should be as flat, and as
featureless as possible. There's a bit of psycology to this, I agree. Seems
like an audiance member, when confronted with a simple, flat hard boarder,
quickly moves to looking for interesting details elsewhere. If there's
anything more there, they tend to linger, looking at how light is catching
the folds in the cloth, or the "sine-wave" of the bottom edge of the
curtain. Anyway, their attention is not where you want it: on the set and on
the actors.
    So, I tend toward flat and boring rather than hung with fullness.

Joe
UCA Theatre
Conway, Arkansas
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Knapp" <will [at] thebase.com>
To: "Stagecraft" <stagecraft [at] theatrical.net>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 1:08 PM
Subject: Black Masking


> For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
> your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
>    http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
> warning disagreements ahead:
>
> bigfred [at] mindspring.com wrote:
> >Uh, actually, it IS seen. Otherwise, why would you have it at all?
> Masking hides *other things* from being seen. Therefore, it's not
> unreasonable to want your masking to look nice. I'll agree that you
> don't want light splashing all over it - ideally, the audience should
> get the impression that there's just a big black hole or shadow up
> there. But it is visible to a certain extent.
>
> If you don't want light all over it, then you don't want it to be seen. If
> you don't want it to be seen then you want it to catch as little light as
> possible. If you want it to catch as little light as possible then you
don't
> want 3-dimensionality. If you're worrying if it looks good or not then
> you're not accepting that the convention is that this is not to be seen.
>
> bigfred [at] mindspring.com wrote:
> > That's putting some awfully harsh words in their mouths Sounds to me
like
> they're saying that they aren't going to presume to tell the customer what
> would/wouldn't look good in their space......But honestly, IMHO there are
> bigger battles to fight than worrying about masking that's TOO nice.  ; )
>
> I believe that people who sell stuff do have a responsibility to be bit of
a
> consultant in the sale. Have you never has a salesman say to you "you
could
> buy that, but this will do what you want better and cost you less". I do
> admit that my agita is really about theaters being fit up by consultants
in
> an inappropriate manner.
>
> Bsapsis [at] aol.com wrote:
> >If they are looking at the masking, then the show is in trouble
>
> And if it's got fullness they're a lot more likely to be looking at it.
>
> roadhat [at] earthlink.net wrote:
> >For such a multi-use facility I would often recommend a degree of
fullness
> in the drapery that I would not consider for a strictly performance
oriented
> venue.
>
> If it's colored I'd agree, if it's black there's no point.
>
> kmdugger [at] earthlink.net wrote:
> >When the item upstage of the masking has fullness such as a traveler...
>
> When a black traveler is closed it should be flat. If it's colored then
yes,
> the border acts as a valence.
>
>
> Bsapsis [at] aol.com wrote:
> >Masking with fullness will better break up any light bounce you may get
> than masking without.  Masking with 50% fullness will also hide the
vertical
> seams of the good because the pleats are sewn at the seams.
>
> Light on the masking?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


------------------------------

Message-ID: <004d01c44766$94d99420$0a01a8c0 [at] Tony>
From: "Tony Deeming" <deeming.tony [at] btinternet.com>
References: <list-3531813 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Powerpoint Background
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 00:25:38 +0100

Easy one.

Go to www.microsoft.com and run a search on 'powerpoint design' and choose
from loads available there.

Hope this helps.

Ynot


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Miller" <tony.miller10 [at] btopenworld.com>
To: "Stagecraft" <stagecraft [at] theatrical.net>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 5:49 PM
Subject: Powerpoint Background


> For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
> your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
>    http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I got to put a Powerpoint Presentation together and I'm sick to death of
the
> normal backgrounds and templates. Can anyone point me in the direction of
> something a bit more classy, preferably with a theatre theme to it. I also
> have Apple Keynote if there is a background for that.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tony Miller.
>



------------------------------

Message-ID: <005701c44767$f946d930$0a01a8c0 [at] Tony>
From: "Tony Deeming" <deeming.tony [at] btinternet.com>
References: <list-3532097 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 00:35:36 +0100


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "CB" <psyd [at] cox.net>
To: "Stagecraft" <stagecraft [at] theatrical.net>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)


> For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
> your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
>    http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
> >    Sorry Chris, but I have to disagree with you.
> >If the government passes laws that say something can't be made or sold,
that
> >is censorship. If a store chooses not to carry the product, it is not.
>
> What you are talking about is the legal definition of censorship.  What I
> was referring to is the social action.  Whether their activities are
> punishable under the law isn't always a litmus for whether or not they are
> actualy wrong.  There are many things that are legally permissable and
> still socially unconscionable.
>
> >    I admit I don't really understand what you mean by "Politically
> >motivated" when it comes to music. Do you mean "Taste motivated"?
>
> No, I mean politically motivated. Clear Channel recently banned the 'Dixie
> Chicks' from some of their radio stations after they made comments in
> England that were unfavorable towards the present US regime.. er,
> administration.  Disney recently canned Michaels Moore's latest movie
> because they didn't like it's political content.  Taking away an artists
> venue because the money doesn't agree with the political content is
> censorship. While this, too, may not stand up to the 'legal' definition of
> censorship, it is clear that these people are being denied an avenue,
> previously avalable to them, due to content in thier message that is not
> 'legally' defined as obscene.


> Chris "Chris" Babbie

From a right-ponder's perspective, I have to say with honesty that there
seems to be a bit of 'conspiracy theory' approach from our cousins across
the water. And this is NOT meant in a derogatory sense.

My own take on this topic is that whilst the big boys of commerce can (and
probably do) prescribe in advance what THEY want to sell in their stores,
they most likely do so by concluding what they BELIEVE their market (ie
their customers) will want to buy. Yes, that's a financial decision, as the
most obviously want to make money - that's primarily what they're in
business for.

BUT that doesn't mean that they're censoring - just being selective.
NO store of any kind can ever hope to stock every option on every type of
item there is. Can your mom & pop store expect to carry every type of screw
(wood/self-tap/chipboard/plasterboard, etc) in every size (from 1/4" to 6")
in every weight (size 4 to 12 plus) and every head
(pozi/straight/phillips/torq/security etc)? I seriously doubt it for a
minute. So why should we expect someone like Wal-Mart to keep every CD ever
printed? They, by definition, HAVE to go with the popularist view.

Ynot



------------------------------

Message-ID: <3834.207.201.197.76.1086050780.squirrel [at] webmail.columbia.sc>
In-Reply-To: <list-3532533 [at] prxy.net>
References: <list-3524721 [at] prxy.net>
    <list-3530345 [at] prxy.net><list-3532365 [at] prxy.net>
    <list-3532533 [at] prxy.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 20:46:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ...
From: usctd [at] columbia.sc

Sorry I was not clear.  I was talking about the permanent type shows that
we are seeing in Florida and Vegas, for example.  Obviously tours are a
different story.  But then they don't have 100 winches in the show either.

Eric Rouse
TD-University of SC, Columbia
Freelance Foyboy

> For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
> your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
>    http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
> At 3:08 PM -0400 5/31/04, usctd [at] columbia.sc wrote:
>
>>  Nowadays, the automation operator is sitting down the long glass
>>  hall form the light board op.  They can’t see or hear what is going on
>> on
>>  deck.
>
>
>
> Ummmm.....
>
> In every automated show that has come through my
> theatre's loading doors, the automation operator
> is sitting right on or over the deck, often right
> smack in the midst of his or her winches & racks.
>
> What is this "long glass hall" you speak of?
>
> --
> Dave Vick, IATSE #274
>    Head Electrician,
>    The Wharton Center for Performing Arts at Michigan State University
>    <http://www.whartoncenter.com/>
>
>     Carpe Per Diem
>


------------------------------

Message-ID: <000701c44773$17c341e0$1aedbed0 [at] hppav>
From: "Joe Meils" <bipolarber [at] cyberback.com>
References: <list-3532097 [at] prxy.net> <list-3533736 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 19:55:10 -0500

    And my question to you is, how many times has the population of the UK
been kept in the dark via their "D notice" policy? Answer: you will never
know.



> From a right-ponder's perspective, I have to say with honesty that there
> seems to be a bit of 'conspiracy theory' approach from our cousins across
> the water. And this is NOT meant in a derogatory sense.



------------------------------

From: "Delbert Hall" <halld [at] etsu.edu>
Subject: Automated Rigging (was Re: Automation Grenade ... careful ..)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:45:04 -0400
Organization: ETSU
Message-ID: <000601c44782$73675950$6400a8c0 [at] delbert>
In-Reply-To: <list-3532571 [at] prxy.net>

Eric - No, I have never had a teeth clenching experience with a winch.
Knock on wood.   I have mainly used Scott Fishers' flying winches.
These are top quality winches and I love their programmable controls.

Bill Sapsis - Yes it was you that I quoted, but since you only posted
this remark yesterday, I thought everyone on this list would know who
made it. I thought everyone on the list reads your posts and commits
them to memory. Yes, the quote was taken out of context, but I always
thought a FACT was TRUE even if it taken out of context.  

And while I am taking Bill comments out context, let me add this one to
the list.  Bill said, "As for counterweight being on the way
out.....IMHO...Yup!"  OK, if you think counterweight is on the way out,
what will replace it?  

Hoffend & Sons is trying to take automated rigging systems mainstream in
the US.  Many of you have seen or read about Hoffend's Vortek.  Hoffend
calls it "The Automated Standard for Safer Theater Rigging" and it has
won numerous prestigious awards (www.hoffend.net).  I think the system
is being marketed primarily to high schools and community theatres, and
if it catches on I expect we will see a lot of other companies with
similar products.  I will agree that automated rigging systems are more
dangerous in some ways than manually operated systems (things
unexpectedly getting caught on a moving batten), but they are safer in
other ways (no ladders to climb, no counterweights to drop, no runaway
arbors).  You just have to weigh one aspect of safety against another.
Hoffend obviously thinks the overall safety of the system is very high
or they would not market it the way they are doing. 

J.R. Clancy also makes automated rigging systems, although I think they
primarily market them to large venues.  Their web site says, "Our
program of ongoing product development of winches and control systems
ensures that J.R. Clancy products offer safe, reliable, cost effective
performance for the entertainment industry."  Clancy does not claim that
motorized systems are safer than manual systems, but they don't claim
manual systems are safer either.  What they do say is that motorized
systems are "easier to install and use."  

Anyone have any specific safety issues with either Hoffend's or Clancy's
automated rigging systems?

IMHO, the most important aspect of safety (anywhere) is usually not the
equipment, but the user.  Training the user to properly use any tool or
piece of equipment is the primary key to safety.  If we could eliminate
operator errors, overall safety would improve greatly.


-Delbert




------------------------------

From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <28.482c214a.2ded50ea [at] aol.com>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:24:26 EDT
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)

Frank Wood writes:
>Were I a parent, which I am not, there would be films and pictures that I 
>should prefer that they did not see: books and stories that they did not 
read.
>But I should not presume to tell them so. I should hope to have educated 
them 
>that their tastes did not lie in that direction.

As a parent I have found it to be a bit more challenging in practice than in 
theory.  To educate them necessitates a certain amount of telling.  Even then, 
cultural influences are so pervasive, and the allure of the "dark side" is so 
strong, that it is an ongoing contest.  Kind of like Frodo, at the end of his 
journey to the volcano, being unable to finally let go of the Ring. (Hmm, 
there's two references to art that inspired.)

Steve Vanciel
Orlando, FL

------------------------------

From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <1cd.22531007.2ded5125 [at] aol.com>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:25:25 EDT
Subject: Re: EGA monitors: was Microvision disks

>Weren't the old ETC boards generally *EGA* monitors?

I think you're right, with the old nine pin connector, and hence the 
incompatibility.  We tried various adapters, but the newer monitors seem to only 
emulate the EGA standard rather than actually accept it.  

As far as shopping at secondhand stores, a Major International Entertainment 
Conglomerate corporation won't go there (except to buy decorative properties). 
 Perhaps it is a convenient excuse to get the latest and hottest new gear.  
Truck loads of Strand and Altman lekos, fresnels, and PAR cans are hauled away 
because it is not labor cost effective to refurbish them or because they are 
not the hot "new" Source 4 flavor.  Same goes for old light boards and dimmers. 
 Now it is great to get the new gear but, having spent a number of years in 
not-for-profit education settings, it still bothers me to throw away 
functionally good stuff just because it is last year's model. 

Steve Vanciel
Orlando, FL

------------------------------

Message-Id: <7DC0225D-B37B-11D8-943A-000A95EE4F20 [at] tany.com>
From: Brian Aldous <brian [at] tany.com>
Subject: Re: Microvision disks? 
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:26:37 -0400


1. Disks.  yes, you need the older "double density" diskettes.  My 
board ops sometimes manage to fool the drive into recording onto a high 
density diskette by watergating the square hole on the stage right side 
of the diskette, but the resulting save may not be reliable.  I wish 
someone would find a way to retrofit these old Expression line boards 
(Concept, Insight, Impression, Vision, microVision) with high density 
drives. They are great boards; I too was one of those who with Michael 
Eddy continues to complain about ETC's lack of a board with a small 
footprint.  The microVision's other virtue is the possession of a wheel 
instead of the Express series' worthless touchpads.

2. Loss of memory.  Sounds like a dead capacitor.  When using these 
boards, my understanding is that you should always switch them off at 
the board, not at any powerstrip intervening between the board & ConEd 
(or whoever) as the cap needs to trickle charge even while the board is 
"off".  I personally prefer to always have a UPS inline to protect the 
board.  The capacitor is easily replaceable.

3.  Monitor.  These boards require a CGA (NOT EGA or VGA) monitor with 
a DB-9 connector if you want color.  I have bought many monitors for 
these boards in the last few years from Computer Reset in Dallas 
(reasonably priced; friendly; fast). If you find a CGA monitor with the 
wrong connector, you will find the pin-out configuration at the back of 
the manual, and DB-9's at Radio Shack.  There are of course many 
monochrome monitors - say, ones for security cameras - out there that 
will work if a color display isn't anything you care about.

Oh, and btw Herrick - stop whining.  I just got back from the Catskills 
where I had to make a show I wrote last summer at Jacob's Pillow on an 
Obsession work on a Kliegl Performer.  I hadn't programmed one of those 
since 1987.  Now that's a board that should really be forgotten.  It 
saves to a TAPE drive!

Brian Aldous


------------------------------

From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <112.333f0915.2ded5407 [at] aol.com>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:37:43 EDT
Subject: Re: Censorship, good taste, and integrity. ;)

 Joe writes:
>...we featured  "One Flea Spare" (murder, bondage, adulterous sex)
>"Blood Poetry" (gay themes, an onstage oral sex encounter, prostitution)
>among several others which centered around abortion, euthenasia, and 
masturbation. 
(edit)
>...our desire to present thoughtful, intelligent works...

An interesting juxtaposition you have there.   Cognitive dissonance at work?  

Not that these issues should be swept under the carpet and ignored. 
However, I wonder if (the Stagecraft connection) they are staged in a manner 
that clarifies the stark reality of the human condition or are design choices 
made based on how much one can get away with?  Is the goal to enrich the 
intellectual and emotional life of the audience or has the aesthetic of Artaud (to 
assault the audience) become the mantra?

Steve Vanciel
Orlando, FL

------------------------------

From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <dd.be62e9d.2ded5615 [at] aol.com>
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:46:29 EDT
Subject: Re: Microvision disks? 

brian writes:
>Monitor.  These boards require a CGA (NOT EGA or VGA) monitor with a DB-9 
connector if you want color.

Gadzooks!! It is even worse than I remembered.  
Surely someone has a magic box somewhere that could translate the CGA output 
into a signal that a SVGA monitor could cope with?
If not, could be a market for one to be developed.

Steve Vanciel
Orlando, FL

------------------------------

From: <gbierly [at] dejazzd.com>
Subject: Re: Counterweight Rigging
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 0:09:12 -0400
Message-Id: <20040601040912.QFCK1534.de-fe01.dejazzd.com [at] de-fe01>

> Perhaps some kind of device that hangs below the arbor so 
> that weights can rest on the stage floor/load rail floor until needed then 
> slide/swing into place?? Clip on with biners? Hmmm... 
> 
> Kristi
> 

I think you guys are on to something.  I do love the simplicity of a Nautalis weight bench.  Let me know when you guys have the kinks out and are marketing it.  It will have to be cheaper than the Vortek and almost as safe.  Keep up the brainstorming.  

Greg Bierly
Hempfield HS


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 21:40:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
Message-ID: <20040531.214358.2940.0.ladesigners [at] juno.com>
From: Richard Niederberg <ladesigners [at] juno.com>

I appreciate what both you are saying, but I think it is more important
for kids to be exposed to the Wagnerian 'Ring' than the Tolkien 'Ring'.
/s/ Richard

> > Frank Wood writes:
> > Were I a parent, which I am not, there would be 
> > films and pictures that I should prefer that they 
> > did not see: books and stories that they did not 
> > read. But I should not presume to tell them so. 
> > I should hope to have educated them that their 
> > tastes did not lie in that direction.
 
> As a parent I have found it to be a bit more challenging 
> in practice than in theory.  To educate them necessitates 
> a certain amount of telling. Even then, cultural influences 
> are so pervasive, and the allure of the "dark side" is so 
> strong, that it is an ongoing contest.  Kind of like Frodo, 
> at the end of his journey to the volcano, being unable to 
> finally let go of the Ring. (Hmm, there's two references to 
> art that inspired.)
> Steve Vanciel

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

------------------------------

Message-ID: <000401c44796$27b1b280$0201a8c0 [at] BRUTUS>
From: "Jon Ares" <jonares [at] hevanet.com>
References: <list-3535067 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:06:09 -0700

> I appreciate what both you are saying, but I think it is more important
> for kids to be exposed to the Wagnerian 'Ring' than the Tolkien 'Ring'.
> /s/ Richard


Yeah, that whole falling in love with your half-mortal sister is such family
fare.  :)

Actually, I suggest kids get exposed to both Rings.  (Then, after learning
Wagner's Ring, study Anna Russell's version.  Then study Bizet's Carmen,
followed by Spike Jones' Carmen.)

  -- Jon Ares
www.hevanet.com/acreative


------------------------------

From: MissWisc [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <88.bb0d82b.2ded6ce8 [at] aol.com>
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 01:23:52 EDT
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
Cc: ladesigners [at] juno.com

In a message dated 5/31/4 11:46:13 PM, ladesigners [at] juno.com wrote:
<<I appreciate what both you are saying, but I think it is more important for 
kids to be exposed to the Wagnerian 'Ring' than the Tolkien 'Ring>>

I tend to agree with you on that, Richard, but my hope is they can learn 
about both like my son is... comparing them could be a great term paper/thesis 
when he gets older! In the mean time, it's great to be able to discuss a literary 
work that appeals to both of us. 

All... It hasn't been mentiond here in a while, but I thought the newer list 
members would like to know... there'a great documentary called "Sing Faster" 
that shows the Wagnerian opera from the perspectives of the stagehands. The 
inside-of-the-dragon scenes are my favorites. Should be required viewing for 
EVERYONE involved with performing arts, IMHO.

Kristi

------------------------------

Message-ID: <002101c44799$adc84c50$6502a8c0 [at] JAMES>
From: "James JG Kosmatka" <james [at] cleveland-theater.com>
References: <list-3535067 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 01:31:24 -0400

> I appreciate what both you are saying, but I think it is more important
> for kids to be exposed to the Wagnerian 'Ring' than the Tolkien 'Ring'.
> /s/ Richard

As in Wagner the anti-Semite?

------------------------------

From: "Andy Leviss" <Andy [at] Andy-L.com>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 01:36:19 -0400
Message-ID: <000901c4479a$5e72e420$3113fea9 [at] AndyLeviss>
In-Reply-To: <list-3532276 [at] prxy.net>

Dave Vick wrote:
> Chris Babbie wrote:
> >  Three Cheers, Frank, for your post, and for your long 
> awaited return.
> 
> Speak for yourself.

Come on, Dave. If nothing else, it means a new market for the "WWFWD?"
product line--without Frank here, new members wouldn't understand it :oD

--Andy, working on his, "Will mix or rig wireless mics for food!" sign
;o)

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.682 / Virus Database: 444 - Release Date: 5/11/2004
 


------------------------------

Message-Id: <p06110401bce1c7fcb978 [at] [168.192.123.250]>
In-Reply-To: <p06110401bce126a33f17 [at] [168.192.123.250]>
References: <list-3532245 [at] prxy.net>
 <p06110401bce126a33f17 [at] [168.192.123.250]>
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 01:45:10 -0400
From: Rigger <rigger [at] tds.net>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)

Kristi wrote:

>   ...Sing Faster...


Oooo!!  Speaking of which, "Sing Faster" is now out on DVD and part 
of the Netflix repetoire.

<http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?trkid=73&movieid=60028899>


-- 
Dave Vick, IATSE #274
   Head Electrician,
   The Wharton Center for Performing Arts at Michigan State University
   <http://www.whartoncenter.com/>

    Carpe Per Diem

------------------------------

From: "Jason" <OneOccy [at] hotmail.com>
References: <list-3532245 [at] prxy.net> <p06110401bce126a33f17 [at] [168.192.123.250]> <list-3535356 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:33:59 -0700
Message-ID: <BAY7-DAV44q4gtopWd700027bac [at] hotmail.com>

Is it on sale at Wal-Mart?



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rigger" <rigger [at] tds.net>
> Kristi wrote:
> 
> >   ...Sing Faster...
> 
> 
> Oooo!!  Speaking of which, "Sing Faster" is now out on DVD and part 
> of the Netflix repetoire.
> 
> <http://www.netflix.com/MovieDisplay?trkid=73&movieid=60028899>
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dave Vick, IATSE #274
>    Head Electrician,
>    The Wharton Center for Performing Arts at Michigan State University
>    <http://www.whartoncenter.com/>
> 
>     Carpe Per Diem
> 

------------------------------

Message-ID: <003501c447a8$8fc3d3f0$0a01a8c0 [at] Tony>
From: "Tony Deeming" <deeming.tony [at] btinternet.com>
References: <list-3532097 [at] prxy.net> <list-3533736 [at] prxy.net> <list-3534114 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:17:56 +0100

You can't really be serious, here?!
D-notices are issued (theoretically) against stuff that's sensitive in the
'national interest' etc. I can't see even our confused govt looking at one
wrt anything like the stuff we're discussing..!

Ynot

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Meils" <bipolarber [at] cyberback.com>
>
>
>     And my question to you is, how many times has the population of the UK
> been kept in the dark via their "D notice" policy? Answer: you will never
> know.
>
>
>
> > From a right-ponder's perspective, I have to say with honesty that there
> > seems to be a bit of 'conspiracy theory' approach from our cousins
across
> > the water. And this is NOT meant in a derogatory sense.
>
>



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 01:05:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
Message-ID: <20040601.010913.2940.3.ladesigners [at] juno.com>
From: Richard Niederberg <ladesigners [at] juno.com>

        Well, the myriad of King Arthur stories, plays, and films, both
with and without music, all seem to have Guenivere becoming an adulteress
by exhibiting carnal knowledge of her husband's most trusted friend,
Lancelot. The idea of Camelot, the round table, and all it stood for, are
proved not valid and Arthur is killed by his (their) own son. Of course,
Arthur only became King because, as a Squire, he was too lazy to go back
to the village to retrieve his Knights sword, so he pulls one out of a
stone. That makes two of the seven deadly sins that are shown positively.
Merlin, another character who is placed in a positive light, is literally
the son of Satan. Are these characters good examples for  our children? I
think not!
/s/ Richard

> > I appreciate what both you are saying, but I think 
> > it is more important for kids to be exposed to the 
> > Wagnerian 'Ring' than the Tolkien 'Ring'.
> > /s/ Richard

> Yeah, that whole falling in love with your half-mortal sister is 
> such family fare.  :)
> Actually, I suggest kids get exposed to both Rings.  (Then, 
> after learning Wagner's Ring, study Anna Russell's version. 
> Then study Bizet's Carmen, followed by Spike Jones' Carmen.)
>   -- Jon Ares

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

------------------------------

Cc: MissWisc [at] aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 00:18:40 -0700
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
Message-ID: <20040601.010913.2940.1.ladesigners [at] juno.com>
From: Richard Niederberg <ladesigners [at] juno.com>

        Wagner's 'Ring', when done in its entirety through consecutive
nightly performances of all four parts, is the ACID TEST for any Opera
company, and, arguably, it is difficult for an opera company to reach the
stratified atmosphere of being universally considered  to be at the top
of the opera world unless it can document an unqualified success in
producing The Ring, whether at Bayreuth, Seattle, Arizona, Milan, LA, or
NYC.
/s/ Richard

> > I appreciate what both you are saying, but I think it is more 
> > important for kids to be exposed to the Wagnerian 'Ring' 
> > than the Tolkien 'Ring>>
 
> I tend to agree with you on that, Richard, but my hope is they can 
> learn about both like my son is... comparing them could be a great 
> term paper/thesis when he gets older! In the mean time, it's great to 
> be able to discuss a literary work that appeals to both of us. <snip>
> Kristi

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 00:40:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
Message-ID: <20040601.010913.2940.2.ladesigners [at] juno.com>
From: Richard Niederberg <ladesigners [at] juno.com>

Yes, he was influenced by Nietzsche but put non-anti-Semitic words and
music to Norse legends from Scandinavia that were NOT Aryan-based.
/s/ Richard

> As in Wagner the anti-Semitic?

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

------------------------------

From: "Mike Marriott" <mike.stagelist [at] optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: Counterweight Rigging
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 18:22:00 +0930
Message-ID: <KBEDLCMKFDJEPHKHCOHIMEJDCBAA.mike.stagelist [at] optusnet.com.au>
In-Reply-To: <list-3532282 [at] prxy.net>

This could be done, but my idea would only work for for new installations

As far as I am aware you can have single and double purchase fly lines.

Single, arbor and pipe travel the same lenght, they need to be balanced.

Double, arbor travels half the lenght of the pipe, double the weight needs to
be on the arbor compared to the pipe.

My idea is to have a HALF purchase system.

Haft, arbor travels twice the distance of the pipe, and requires half the
weight.

If you start at the top of the fyl gallery, then to the stage floor, and keep
on going down, when the bar was at the half mark the arbor would be at stage
level.

Far fetched idea ? or could it work ?

Kind Regards
Mike Marriott

-/--
It seems like a good idea, a pile of iron bring in the arbor put in a pin
and fly out the perfecly balenced lineset. The trouble comes like most
things in practice. Weight changes should be done with the pipe on the
ground so the arbor is in the air, if its possible to somehow invert the
system then its a good idea. until then it is just a pipe dream. Also each
lineset would need enough weight to fill the arbor so that might get a
little costly.

Mike
P.S. wouldn't that law make it illeagal to lift weights for health reasons?


------------------------------

End of Stagecraft Digest #24
****************************