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Subject: Stagecraft Digest #28
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 03:00:07 -0700
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For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
   http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
---------------------------------------------------

Stagecraft Digest, Issue #28

 1. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by Rigger <rigger [at] tds.net>
 2. New and Improved Counterweight Rigging (as of 1998)
    by "Brian Busch" <BPBusch [at] techie.com>
 3. Re. Counterweight Rigging
    by Ron Cargile <rcargile [at] uci.edu>
 4. Re: Rings (warning:  almost completely OT)
    by "Joe Meils" <bipolarber [at] cyberback.com>
 5. Re: Re. Counterweight Rigging
    by "Adam Berns" <ab [at] adamb.com>
 6. Re: Re. Counterweight Rigging
    by Steve Larson <tiptd [at] theatreinthepark.com>
 7. Re: Automation Grenade
    by CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
 8. Re: New and Improved Counterweight Rigging (as of 1998)
    by "Kevin Patrick" <patrick_kevin [at] colstate.edu>
 9. Re: New and Improved Counterweight Rigging (as of 1998)
    by "Brian Busch" <bpbusch [at] techie.com>
10. He's BAAAAaaack!
    by CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
11. Re: Rings (warning:  almost completely OT)
    by CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
12. Re: Rings (warning:  almost completely OT)
    by CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
13. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
14. Re: Welcome back Frank
    by "Daryl Redmon" <jonathand01 [at] sbcglobal.net>
15. Guiness Counterweight Rigging
    by "Randy Whitcomb" <rwhitco [at] comcast.net>
16. Re: old gear: was EGA monitors: was Microvision disks
    by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
17. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
18. Re: Food for thought - caution: irony alert
    by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
19. Re: Food for thought
    by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
20. Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)
    by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
21. Re: Food for thought... Wal Mart ammo
    by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
22. Re: EGA monitors: was Microvision disks
    by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
23. Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging
    by Duncan Mahoney <dmahoney [at] usc.edu>
24. Re: Rings (warning:  almost completely OT)
    by Herrick <Herrick [at] hglightingdesign.com>
25. Re: Bakshi
    by Duncan Mahoney <dmahoney [at] usc.edu>
26. Re: Power quality, electrical system specs
    by Mitch Hefter <mitch.hefter [at] DesignRelief.com>
27. Re: Counterweight systems
    by Michael Powers <mfpowers [at] theater.umass.edu>
28. Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging
    by Richard Niederberg <ladesigners [at] juno.com>
29. Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging
    by Mike Brubaker <mdbrubaker [at] insightbb.com>
30. Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging
    by Stuart Wheaton <sdwheaton [at] fuse.net>
31. Re: Counterweight systems
    by "Matthew Breton" <theatricalmatt [at] hotmail.com>
32. Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging
    by "Jason" <OneOccy [at] hotmail.com>
33. Re: Bakshi
    by "Joe Meils" <bipolarber [at] cyberback.com>
34. Re: Counterweight systems
    by "Tom Heemskerk" <tommy [at] etainternet.com>
35. Re: Counterweight systems
    by "Jason" <OneOccy [at] hotmail.com>
36. Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging
    by Richard Niederberg <ladesigners [at] juno.com>
37. Question about header
    by Eric Minton <theater [at] ericminton.biz>

*** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject
*** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to
*** one message subject in each reply.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message-Id: <p06110407bce3f97d2710 [at] [168.192.123.250]>
In-Reply-To: <list-3548454 [at] prxy.net>
References: <list-3543464 [at] prxy.net> <list-3545090 [at] prxy.net>
 <list-3547823 [at] prxy.net> <list-3547931 [at] prxy.net> <list-3548454 [at] prxy.net>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:41:58 -0400
From: Rigger <rigger [at] tds.net>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)

At 2:30 PM -0700 6/2/04, Jerry Durand wrote:

>  Something that IS theater related is us pyros trying to be legal
>  while the BATFE makes more and more stuff illegal (while at the
>  same time saying that a gun owner can safely store all his ammo
>  and powder in a home).


Ayup...   That's why I sold off my magazine last summer, and why when 
my Type 19 expires this fall I may or may not renew it.

It's almost not worth the hassle trying to obey The Law any more.

-- 
Dave Vick, IATSE #274
   Head Electrician,
   The Wharton Center for Performing Arts at Michigan State University
   <http://www.whartoncenter.com/>

    Carpe Per Diem

------------------------------

From: "Brian Busch" <BPBusch [at] techie.com>
Subject: New and Improved Counterweight Rigging (as of 1998)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:20:07 -0400
Message-ID: <000b01c448f8$25059a70$0200a8c0 [at] trinity>
In-Reply-To: <list-3532217 [at] prxy.net>

Chris said:
Now, you can take this with as many grains of salt as needed, and
consider the source (NOT a rigger, and not even close...), but I always
thought, as a sound guy, that there was an easier way to do this. I
picture the Nautilus gear at the gym, with the clearly marked weights
and the moveable pin, and I think, "This would be a great way to adjust
the weight on a counterweight system".  Or, am I just and idiot?  Why
couldn't the weights be set up with some sort of choice of available
weight without actually removing it from the arbor?


Well, as a sound guy (and be proud of it) you may be right. There
actually may be an easier way to load weight. At least its been
patented. I'm pretty sure no one is actually manufacturing this device
but it is fascinating. It's patent no. 05711713. I think a better
solution exists to get rid of the grease cups and drilling out all that
counterweight will keep students busy for weeks.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL
&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,711,713.WKU.&OS=PN/5,711,
713&RS=PN/5,711,713 

You'll need a TIFF viewer to actually see the document and the images
which is available here:

http://www.alternatiff.com/

But you can read all about it without the viewer.

Brian Busch
University of Cincinnati
College-Conservatory of Music
				




------------------------------

Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20040602164913.01b6a588 [at] pop.uci.edu>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 16:50:36 -0700
From: Ron Cargile <rcargile [at] uci.edu>
Subject: Re. Counterweight Rigging



 >And around here that'd put the arbor well deep into the water table.
 >--
 >Dave Vick, IATSE #274


Looks like we're back to liquid counterweight.....   :)

sorry.  Couldn't resist.

....Ron

__________
Ron Cargile
Electrics & Audio Supervisor
Claire Trevor School of the Arts
University of California, Irvine
(949) 824-4031


------------------------------

Message-ID: <001401c448ff$40be7320$16ecbed0 [at] hppav>
From: "Joe Meils" <bipolarber [at] cyberback.com>
References: <list-3547303 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Rings (warning:  almost completely OT)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:11:00 -0500

    Funnily enough.... They just released "Wizards" on DVD. I've always
considered Bakshi to be the low end of animation and art. But that one movie
has some strange sort of "jazz" to it. Listening to the commentary, I have a
new respect for him. He helped get artists like Ian Miller and Mike Ploog a
start in the film business. Like some people have said, he's the
"anti-Disney." Thank God he was there to offer an alternative.


Joe

----- Original Message -----
From: "CB" <psyd [at] cox.net>
To: "Stagecraft" <stagecraft [at] theatrical.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: Rings (warning: almost completely OT)


> For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
> your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
>    http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
> >I lived with Bakshi's animated version for far too long.
>
> Did that lead you to any of Ralph's earlier works?  While most of his
> 'Fritz' stuff was a rip-off or Robert Crumb, Robert was way too strange to
> do anything with it anyways.  Bakshi and Crumb are probably responsible
for
> my taste in women more than anyone else on the planet, and some of my
> wierder tastes as well...
> Oh, and merely knowing who Bakshi is makes you a geek.
> Chris "Chris" Babbie
> Location Sound
> MON AZ
>
> Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment.  Rates
> negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment...


------------------------------

Date: Wed,  2 Jun 2004 20:24:02 -0400
Message-Id: <200406022024.AA694091930 [at] mail.adamb.com>
From: "Adam Berns" <ab [at] adamb.com>
Subject: Re: Re. Counterweight Rigging

Yeah, liquid... beer!  New sport in the tech olympics, bar hoping meets rigging...

Sorry could not resist.

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Ron Cargile <rcargile [at] uci.edu>
Reply-To: "Stagecraft" <stagecraft [at] theatrical.net>
Date:  Wed, 02 Jun 2004 16:50:36 -0700

For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
   http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
---------------------------------------------------




 >And around here that'd put the arbor well deep into the water table.
 >--
 >Dave Vick, IATSE #274


Looks like we're back to liquid counterweight.....   :)

sorry.  Couldn't resist.

....Ron

__________
Ron Cargile
Electrics & Audio Supervisor
Claire Trevor School of the Arts
University of California, Irvine
(949) 824-4031


 




________________________________________________________________



 
                   

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:27:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Re. Counterweight Rigging
From: Steve Larson <tiptd [at] theatreinthepark.com>
Message-ID: <BCE3E8CB.42B7%tiptd [at] theatreinthepark.com>
In-Reply-To: <list-3549429 [at] prxy.net>

HOPS, NOT HOPE!!!!

on 6/2/04 8:24 PM, Adam Berns at ab [at] adamb.com wrote:

> For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
> your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
> http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Yeah, liquid... beer!  New sport in the tech olympics, bar hoping meets
> rigging...
> 
> Sorry could not resist.
> 


------------------------------

Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040602173331.01691c00 [at] pop.west.cox.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 17:33:31
From: CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
Subject: Re: Automation Grenade

>And how many times have you seen a technician onstage either pushing a
wagon or pulling a
>counterweight line while looking for a spike mark instead of watching
stage for errant actors and
>such?

Ehm, the last time had a winch operator moving a wagon, and humans pulling
the rail, there were incidences of other set parts and humans (sometimes
even actors) getting into the lift/crush zones.  Fortunately, in all cases
there were others backstage, and/or the operator was equipped with
peripheral vision. In either curcumstance, no one was injured.  The closest
thing to an accident that we had was an actor running into me on a dark
stage when we both went to fetch a piece of 8' x 2' luan that had fallen
off a piece of hard set.  The piece was leaning against the set, preventing
it from getting pulled, and resting on a wagon, preventing the wagon from
getting pulled.  The actor received the Actor Tech Award for the day, as he
also caught the luan as it fell off the set.  In stride.  Without missing a
beat.
Having an operator move the set via automation or manually has its dangers.
 Whatever they are, we take precautions against those dangers. If we don't,
it doesn't matter waht type of tool we implement, we are negligent.  Being
negligent kills, not tools.
				Chris "Chris" Babbie
				Location Sound
				MON AZ

Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment.  Rates
negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment...

------------------------------

From: "Kevin Patrick" <patrick_kevin [at] colstate.edu>
Subject: Re: New and Improved Counterweight Rigging (as of 1998)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 21:08:12 -0400
In-Reply-To: <list-3549054 [at] prxy.net>
Message-ID: <auto-000003549667 [at] prxy.net>

Here's the same link, but shorter

http://makeashorterlink.com/?T13532678

\<


Brian mentioned....

Well, as a sound guy (and be proud of it) you may be right. There
actually may be an easier way to load weight. At least its been
patented. I'm pretty sure no one is actually manufacturing this device
but it is fascinating. It's patent no. 05711713. I think a better
solution exists to get rid of the grease cups and drilling out all that
counterweight will keep students busy for weeks.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL
&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,711,713.WKU.&OS=PN/5,711,
713&RS=PN/5,711,713 

Brian Busch
University of Cincinnati
College-Conservatory of Music

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 5/31/2004
 


------------------------------

From: "Brian Busch" <bpbusch [at] techie.com>
Subject: Re: New and Improved Counterweight Rigging (as of 1998)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 21:22:50 -0400
Message-ID: <000101c44909$49ed2c70$0200a8c0 [at] trinity>
In-Reply-To: <list-3549054 [at] prxy.net>


I should have known better. Try this (under the wrap length) link, then
type in 5711713.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm

Brian Busch
University of Cincinnati
College-Conservatory of Music



------------------------------

Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040602175646.01691c00 [at] pop.west.cox.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 17:56:46
From: CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
Subject: He's BAAAAaaack!

>That is open to question.
and
>So, oddly enough, am I! But your 'Apples', allow me to create my own 
>pictures. Your 'Oranges' interpose the director's vision between me and
the work. I 
>have often found this unsuccessful. For example, when Hunding returns to his 
>house, in a bowler hat, black jacket and striped trousers carrying a
briefcase, 
>and the next morning fights Siegmund with a broadsword, I find my credulity 
>stretched past breaking point.

Were posted yesterday.  Ahhhhh, eerything is back to normal, er, abnormal,
er, whatever...
				Chris "Chris" Babbie
				Location Sound
				MON AZ

Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment.  Rates
negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment...

------------------------------

Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040602180017.01691c00 [at] pop.west.cox.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:00:17
From: CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
Subject: Re: Rings (warning:  almost completely OT)

>Guilty as charged.
>
>(i own 'wizards' on dvd.)

MMMmmm.  Ralphi's best work, I think.  And, I now know what to do with my
DVD player.  Any idea if any of his earlier works have been released on DVD?
				Chris "Chris" Babbie
				Location Sound
				MON AZ

Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment.  Rates
negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment...

------------------------------

Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040602180119.01691c00 [at] pop.west.cox.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:01:19
From: CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
Subject: Re: Rings (warning:  almost completely OT)

>Yes I am particularly fond of Bakshi's "wizards"  but you probably even 
>know my favorite quote from it anyway.

"This is a little trick Ma taught me when you weren't around"?
				Chris "Chris" Babbie
				Location Sound
				MON AZ

Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment.  Rates
negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment...

------------------------------

Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20040602181431.01691c00 [at] pop.west.cox.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:14:31
From: CB <psyd [at] cox.net>
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)

>But, really, do we ALL have to do what you want just because your
mainspring is 
>wound too tightly? ;-)

He didn't say it was mandatory, he said it was safer.
				Chris "Chris" Babbie
				Location Sound
				MON AZ

Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment.  Rates
negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment...

------------------------------

Message-ID: <000f01c4490f$93bde7d0$6400a8c0 [at] DADS>
From: "Daryl Redmon" <jonathand01 [at] sbcglobal.net>
References: <list-3546936 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Welcome back Frank
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:07:51 -0700

Don't forget all of the trolly cars and locomotive ...

Daryl Redmon
>
>  Uh huh. What you know about
> >  series-wound, universal motors is all $^%$& up! But, hey, nobody's
prefect.
>
> Well, not a lot. They didn't turn up often in my end of the world.
> But enough. The starter motor in your car is probably one. Enormous torque
at
> low revs, and enormous currents. 300A is not unusual, and that from a 12V
> supply. I have it in my mind that they were also used to power steel
rolling
> mills.
>
> Frank Wood


------------------------------

Message-ID: <000501c44914$603e84a0$43cea143 [at] attbi.com>
From: "Randy Whitcomb" <rwhitco [at] comcast.net>
References: <list-3549458 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Guiness Counterweight Rigging
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:42:11 -0600

Simple math should show the futility of pursuing this any further.

Arbors loaded with Guiness + Stagehands = 1/2 the line sets batten heavy
before Intermission.

Too bad, I was looking forward to the Sapsis Arbor-Tap  with optional DMX
module.

Randy Whitcomb, TD
Price Civic Aud
Loveland, CO.



------------------------------

From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <cf.e479771.2defeecd [at] aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:02:37 EDT
Subject: Re: old gear: was EGA monitors: was Microvision disks

several write:
>When and where does this happen?

Sporadically ---- at the property control dispo yard.
Stuff gets sent there when other stages do not pick up on items that are 
surplused from a given show/location.  It may sit around at a local area warehouse 
for a while until someone decides it is in the way.  If an employee happens 
to be at the yard when something shows up, one can get stuff for pennies on the 
dollar.  When enough stuff piles up (from all operating areas) there is a 
public auction to clear the lot.

Once in a while, when all the planets are aligned just right, I have gotten 
advance word that something of interest is going away.  If it looks useable, 
there is a formal donation process through Community Relations that can be 
pursued.  Have been able to equip a local church with some lighting gear in this 
way.  Some area schools and community theatres have been recipients.  

Given the economics where new gear (complete) is far less expensive than the 
price of it's individual replacement parts (in sum), a lot of the gear might 
cost more to repair than to buy new.  If you have to pay labor rates on top of 
that.....well, I came to the sad conclusion many years ago that any technology 
that cost less than $1000 is a disposable item.  

If anyone is interested in tempting fate, write to me off list.

Steve Vanciel
Orlando, FL      

8O   (hint: ears)

------------------------------

From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <118.33a70252.2defeeef [at] aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:03:11 EDT
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)

Chip.Wood writes:
>Did you see Doonesbury on Sunday?

Yes.  And while I generally like Doonesbury, I think Sunday's panels were 
more in the vein of Rhetoric rather than Poetic.  

Steve Vanciel
Orlando, FL

------------------------------

From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <1a2.251be715.2defef59 [at] aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:04:57 EDT
Subject: Re: Food for thought - caution: irony alert

Chris writes:
>companies like Mall-Wart, Clear Channel, and Disney (just to name a few) are 
committing >a social sin, not a federal crime.

Sin?  Where the Golden Calf is god the only sin is not making a profit.  The 
temple of Wall Street demands it.  The investor acolytes demand it.  How can 
mere mortal consumers defy what is decreed?

Steve Vanciel
Orlando, FL

------------------------------

From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <ca.2c70599d.2defef72 [at] aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:05:22 EDT
Subject: Re: Food for thought

Chris writes:
>Thanks, I guess I have no need to watch the end of the new DVD I just got.

But Chris, the volcano scene is *nowhere* near the end.  This movie does 
however have about a hundred serial ending scenes.  I promise I won't reveal a 
single one of them here.

Steve Vanciel
Orlando, FL

------------------------------

From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <141.2b1a582b.2defef95 [at] aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:05:57 EDT
Subject: Re: Food for thought... discuss as you please. ;)

Bruce writes:
>What I don't understand is why Disney had the rights in the first place.
>Everyone knows Moor's politics. If Disney doesn't like them, why did they
>get involved in the first place??

Its a Miramax thing.  A semiautonomous outfit to provide cover for the edgier 
"art" films that do not fit the Disney family image but generate a lot of 
Oscars and some profits.

Steve Vanciel
Orlando, FL

------------------------------

From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <a9.5945338b.2defefe0 [at] aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:07:12 EDT
Subject: Re: Food for thought... Wal Mart ammo

steeve_vajk writes:
>But seriously, you sure didn't buy that ammo AT Wal-Mart, because
>Michael Moore turned market pressure on them after Columbine, and now
>they don't sell guns or ammo.

The three Super Wallies around here still sell both.  Brand name products at 
reasonable prices.

Steve Vanciel
Orlando (and near Kissimmee/StCloud), FL

------------------------------

From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com
Message-ID: <12d.42abc303.2deff028 [at] aol.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:08:24 EDT
Subject: Re: EGA monitors: was Microvision disks

Chris writes:
>If you were buying your prop-tarts the proper amount of beer...

Ah, but there is a specific prohibition on that in the employee policy 
manual.  And, every paper clip has to be approved by five managers and then 
cross-checked by purchasing against the approved provider list.  This is not to say 
that there are not some creative tactics used from time to time.  However, we 
save them for really important things.  Can't disclose more now, have to 
disconnect and move quickly or the cerebral waveform monitors will be triggered. ;o

**** *********
Stylish in Aluminum Foil,
Orlando, FL

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:25:06 -0700
From: Duncan Mahoney <dmahoney [at] usc.edu>
Subject: Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging
Message-id: <5.0.2.1.1.20040602192447.00aacf48 [at] email.usc.edu>

Big Fred suggests:
 > Hmmmm... What about a system kinda like a Nautilus machine, but
 > upside-down, sort of? Picture a lineset where the maximum amount of
 > stage weights is stored at the top, just under the head block. The lift
 > lines all run through slots in the weights, all the way down to the
 > bottom plate. The Nautilus-y part (pin?) wouldn't attach the correct
 > amount of weight to the lines, it would keep the correct amount *off of
 > the arbor*. The batten could be loaded on the deck, and then loading
 > the weight would consist of sticking the pin in the proper hole. Or
 > something like that. Plus, the weights would be forever captured by the
 > cables running through them, so they couldn't slip off the arbor.

This is a pretty clever idea but you would need to find a way to hold the 
weights up and off the pin whenever you needed to change the 
weight.  Otherwise all the weight is on the arbor when you pull the pin, 
assuming you could even pull it out with the weight above it pressing 
down.  I suppose you could use a full arbor worth of stagehands holding 
down the batten to press the arbor up and take pressure off the pin.  (yes, 
that's right, I said we are going to need at least 1200 pounds of 
stagehands for this load-in)

I haven't done much research on motorized linesets, mainly because they are 
a bit beyond our budgets, but I do have a question.

A skilled counterweight system operator can feel the additional drag or 
load caused by the moving batten fouling on something and can usually stop 
before serious damage occurs.  Is there a system built in to motorized 
rigging systems to sense subtle changes in the load while 
moving?  Otherwise I could see little snags becoming really big problems 
before the operator notices.


Duncan Mahoney
Technical Director
University of Southern California
School of Theatre


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:32:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Rings (warning:  almost completely OT)
From: Herrick <Herrick [at] hglightingdesign.com>
In-Reply-To: <list-3549812 [at] prxy.net>
Message-Id: <961FC5E4-B50E-11D8-9EA3-0003934521EC [at] hglightingdesign.com>

Indeed Chris that would be the quote!!

I knew I liked you for a reason.


On Wednesday, Jun 2, 2004, at 18:01 America/New_York, CB wrote:

>
>
>> Yes I am particularly fond of Bakshi's "wizards"  but you probably 
>> even
>> know my favorite quote from it anyway.
>
> "This is a little trick Ma taught me when you weren't around"?
>
Herrick Goldman
Lighting Designer, NYC
www.HGLightingDesign.com

"To the scores of silent alchemists who wreak their joy in darkness and 
in light bringing magic to life, we bow most humbly. "-CDS


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:34:19 -0700
From: Duncan Mahoney <dmahoney [at] usc.edu>
Subject: Re: Bakshi
Message-id: <5.0.2.1.1.20040602202518.00aad1c8 [at] email.usc.edu>

<Oh, and merely knowing who Bakshi is makes you a geek>

I've never been called a geek before, other names yes, but geek...

I'm honored, I think.

I was only somewhat a fan of Bakshi's work until his "Mighty Mouse" hit the 
air.  Sheer genius.




Duncan Mahoney
Technical Director
University of Southern California
School of Theatre


------------------------------

Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20040602221831.0270e388 [at] mail.DesignRelief.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 22:35:41 -0500
From: Mitch Hefter <mitch.hefter [at] DesignRelief.com>
Subject: Re: Power quality, electrical system specs
In-Reply-To: <list-3549059 [at] prxy.net>
References: <list-3549059 [at] prxy.net>

On 6/2/2004, Frank Wood wrote:
>I am baffled. I read the article, and got no information from it. OK, your
>eectrical distrubution systems are hidden from me, but three-phaase, 
>whethwer ay
>220V or 440V is not.
>
>Frank Wood

Frank - this goes back to the several discussions in past years regarding 
harmonics and the reality that neutrals can and sometimes do carry more 
current than "appears" to be put into the system - i.e., the canceling of 
currents in the neutral in linear systems does not occur the same way as in 
non-linear systems.

Also, as the article points out, there are more harmonics these days due to 
increased used of arc sources (common in most moving lights) and 
electronics systems of all sorts - the switching power supply being the 
culprit.

You are right - the difference in voltages between North America and most 
of the rest of the world is only a minor factor.


. . .
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mitch Hefter
Office:  Entertainment Technology / a Division of Genlyte Thomas
         mhefter  [at]  genlyte.com
http://www.etdimming.com
http://www.lolcontrols.com
http://www.vari-lite.com
http://www.genlyte.com



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 23:47:19 -0400
From: Michael Powers <mfpowers [at] theater.umass.edu>
Subject: Re: Counterweight systems
Message-id: <1086234439.40be9f47985bb [at] mail-www3.oit.umass.edu>

"Matthew Breton" <theatricalmatt [at] hotmail.com> wrote:

<<I was being about as serious in my comment about evaporating water 
as others are in their thoughts about Guinness. :) ...>>

Damn, and I thought you were kidding around!  If you're going to 
bring Guinness into it then I know you really mean it.

<< And about as serious as I would be in suggesting the stagehands 
could top the saltwater dimmer vats you mention off with (ewww!) 
sweat.  >>  

Actually, there was one mention of a stagehand topping off a vat 
with something "other" than sweat  .....  while the power was on.  
Hmmmmmm, never was a mention of a second person doing it that way.  
Reminds me of an old Will Rogers quote..... which I'll refrain from 
repeating at this time.  Something about electric fences and a 
learning curve.  

Michael

Michael Powers, Technical Director
UMass Theatre Department
112 FAC West
151 Presidents Drive, Ofc.2
Amherst, Ma. 01003-9331

413-545-6821  voice
413-577-0025  fax

mfpowers [at] theater.umass.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:50:04 -0700
Subject: Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging
Message-ID: <20040602.205017.2620.2.ladesigners [at] juno.com>
From: Richard Niederberg <ladesigners [at] juno.com>

        Remember that due to cable weight, the counterweight load
required decreases as the cable moves through the headblock to the arbor
side, and any loadcell, amperage measuring device, or device that is
programmed to sense a subtle change in load due to a fouled condition
will have to be programmed to factor out the change of load attributable
to cable weight changing places relative to the balance point. 
/s/ Richard

> A skilled counterweight system operator can feel the 
> additional drag or load caused by the moving batten 
> fouling on something and can usually stop before 
> serious damage occurs.  Is there a system built in to 
> motorized rigging systems to sense subtle changes in 
> the load while moving?  
> Duncan Mahoney

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

------------------------------

Message-Id: <6.1.1.1.0.20040602231045.0430c180 [at] mail.insightbb.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 23:15:43 -0500
From: Mike Brubaker <mdbrubaker [at] insightbb.com>
Subject: Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging
In-Reply-To: <list-3550569 [at] prxy.net>
References: <list-3550569 [at] prxy.net>

Hoffend's Vortek system and, presumably, JR Clancy's PowerLift system have 
load sensors on each line.  These sensors are coupled with a sophisticated 
control system.  The system is "taught" what the load should look like as 
it moves through the full range of travel and speed.  Once taught, the 
control system then knows what to look for and can stop the system in the 
event that the sensors report a condition outside certain parameters (x 
number of pounds, for example).

That help?

Mike

At 10:50 PM 6/2/2004, Richard Niederberg wrote:

>         Remember that due to cable weight, the counterweight load
>required decreases as the cable moves through the headblock to the arbor
>side, and any loadcell, amperage measuring device, or device that is
>programmed to sense a subtle change in load due to a fouled condition
>will have to be programmed to factor out the change of load attributable
>to cable weight changing places relative to the balance point.
>/s/ Richard
>
> > A skilled counterweight system operator can feel the
> > additional drag or load caused by the moving batten
> > fouling on something and can usually stop before
> > serious damage occurs.  Is there a system built in to
> > motorized rigging systems to sense subtle changes in
> > the load while moving?
> > Duncan Mahoney


------------------------------

Message-ID: <40BEA73B.20707 [at] fuse.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:21:15 -0400
From: Stuart Wheaton <sdwheaton [at] fuse.net>
Subject: Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging
References: <list-3550569 [at] prxy.net>
In-Reply-To: <list-3550569 [at] prxy.net>

Richard Niederberg wrote:
> 
>         Remember that due to cable weight, the counterweight load
> required decreases as the cable moves through the headblock to the arbor
> side, and any loadcell, amperage measuring device, or device that is
> programmed to sense a subtle change in load due to a fouled condition
> will have to be programmed to factor out the change of load attributable
> to cable weight changing places relative to the balance point. 

Seems simple, you run the thing once or twice while watching 
it carefully, and tell it that the Strains, loads, or power 
consumption that it saw in that run is, plus or minus some 
small amount, the defined 'normal' for that cue, and if it 
deviates from that profile when running that cue in the 
future, Stop and ask for instructions.   Furthermore, you 
could record these values every cue and generate statistics 
of which loads were slowly creeping up as bearings failed or 
casters got clogged with feathers.

Stuart



------------------------------

From: "Matthew Breton" <theatricalmatt [at] hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Counterweight systems
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 01:00:18 -0400
Message-ID: <BAY14-F27wDHDlYfjL500034616 [at] hotmail.com>

>Actually, there was one mention of a stagehand topping off a vat
>with something "other" than sweat  .....

This was obviously *after* the trip to the brewery in the fly galley.  ;)

Didn't the "can you get electrocuted by urinating on the third rail" urban 
myth make it onto some TV show or another?  (And, if so, since I barely have 
time to watch anymore, could someone tell me the results?)


Matthew Breton
Technical Director
Green Street Studios

_________________________________________________________________
Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from MSN 
House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/


------------------------------

From: "Jason" <OneOccy [at] hotmail.com>
References: <list-3550424 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:20:25 -0700
Message-ID: <BAY7-DAV53UlTSmEzYX0002a0d2 [at] hotmail.com>

Duncan,  the last motorize system install I did wouldn't care what it hit as
the specs called for it to be out of balance 2500 lbs either way, we test
the system to 5000 lbs which was pushing the system and it hit its marks
with is 1/32 of inch every time out of balance, but only one speed and had
an arbor if one wanted to keep it in balance Funny thing is that they bought
an extra 100,000 lbs more than the contract and its still sitting out back
on pallets, last time I was by the theater and this theater runs 7 days a
week 5 to 10 shows a day.

With a computer over a PLC type system it would be super easy tell if got
heavier or lighter with all the sensors out there these days. Variable speed
system few more sensors. This for an AC system would never use DC in this
type of systems to much maintained.

Fluid power system total different story............

As for control, if you put a electrician on to operate it/2 to an hour to
learn it. Put a decent lighting board operator on it 5 to 10 mins. Put a
carp on it 1 to 2 days, seems to be a high learning curve when the ropes
move on their own. My rule of thumb if you can break it from the keyboard
something is wrong. But there are multi level pass words so the high level
password can over ride all soft stops.


From: "Duncan Mahoney" <dmahoney [at] usc.edu>
> I haven't done much research on motorized linesets, mainly because they
are
> a bit beyond our budgets, but I do have a question.
>
> A skilled counterweight system operator can feel the additional drag or
> load caused by the moving batten fouling on something and can usually stop
> before serious damage occurs.  Is there a system built in to motorized
> rigging systems to sense subtle changes in the load while
> moving?  Otherwise I could see little snags becoming really big problems
> before the operator notices.
>
>
> Duncan Mahoney
> Technical Director
> University of Southern California
> School of Theatre
>
>

------------------------------

Message-ID: <001101c4492a$a50f1660$33ecbed0 [at] hppav>
From: "Joe Meils" <bipolarber [at] cyberback.com>
References: <list-3550471 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Bakshi
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:21:37 -0500

...and here I thought it might be, "I wonder if I packed my scotch?" Or it
could have been "I'll be a crinkled Frazetta!"

My favorite line from Mighty Mouse has always been: "We'll settle this the
American way! With our fists!"

Joe

----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan Mahoney" <dmahoney [at] usc.edu>
To: "Stagecraft" <stagecraft [at] theatrical.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: Bakshi


> For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
> your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
>    http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
> <Oh, and merely knowing who Bakshi is makes you a geek>
>
> I've never been called a geek before, other names yes, but geek...
>
> I'm honored, I think.
>
> I was only somewhat a fan of Bakshi's work until his "Mighty Mouse" hit
the
> air.  Sheer genius.
>
>
>
>
> Duncan Mahoney
> Technical Director
> University of Southern California
> School of Theatre
>


------------------------------

Message-ID: <085701c4492c$c7e85fa0$19e2f4cc [at] oemcomputer>
From: "Tom Heemskerk" <tommy [at] etainternet.com>
References: <list-3550868 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Counterweight systems
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:36:47 -0700

>
> >Actually, there was one mention of a stagehand topping off a vat
> >with something "other" than sweat  .....
>
> This was obviously *after* the trip to the brewery in the fly galley.  ;)
>

Local hemp-house folklore mentions a similar method of adding just a wee bit
of weight to the sandbags...

There is also a story, probably related, of hiding beer bottles in sandbags,
which of course would become problematic when the fly crew got thirsty....

th


------------------------------

From: "Jason" <OneOccy [at] hotmail.com>
References: <list-3550868 [at] prxy.net>
Subject: Re: Counterweight systems
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 22:38:29 -0700
Message-ID: <BAY7-DAV96pJKHRGPCI0002a5bb [at] hotmail.com>

The Carps would never be off the loading bridge





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matthew Breton" <theatricalmatt [at] hotmail.com>
To: "Stagecraft" <stagecraft [at] theatrical.net>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: Counterweight systems


> For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
> your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
>    http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
> >Actually, there was one mention of a stagehand topping off a vat
> >with something "other" than sweat  .....
>
> This was obviously *after* the trip to the brewery in the fly galley.  ;)
>
> Didn't the "can you get electrocuted by urinating on the third rail" urban
> myth make it onto some TV show or another?  (And, if so, since I barely
have
> time to watch anymore, could someone tell me the results?)
>
>
> Matthew Breton
> Technical Director
> Green Street Studios
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Looking to buy a house? Get informed with the Home Buying Guide from MSN
> House & Home. http://coldwellbanker.msn.com/
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:47:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Counterweight and motorized rigging
Message-ID: <20040602.234756.2572.0.ladesigners [at] juno.com>
From: Richard Niederberg <ladesigners [at] juno.com>

OK, but you still have the situation where huge, thick curtains absorb
huge amounts of moisture in areas that are subject to sudden
unpredictable bouts of high humidity after you've programmed all of the
parameters into the system. Or on those rare and unfortunate occasions
where the load radically increases when the main drape is drenched by the
fire sprinklers or by some sort of  flood, so that the load exceeds the
rated capacity of the equipment or of the loadcell installed to
accurately sense the weight as part of an automated system. Of course, if
the latter happens, you  have items of far larger concern to consider
first...<g>
/s/ Richard

> Seems simple, you run the thing once or twice while watching 
> it carefully, and tell it that the Strains, loads, or power 
> consumption that it saw in that run is, plus or minus some 
> small amount, the defined 'normal' for that cue, and if it 
> deviates from that profile when running that cue in the 
> future, Stop and ask for instructions.  
> Stuart

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

------------------------------

Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20040602212714.02794b08 [at] mail.ericminton.biz>
Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 21:29:17 -1000
From: Eric Minton <theater [at] ericminton.biz>
Subject: Question about header
In-Reply-To: <list-3547138 [at] prxy.net>
References: <list-3547138 [at] prxy.net>

Aloha

Could this header become a footer it would make the message easier to preview.
At 12:55 AM 6/2/2004, you wrote:
>For info on subscribing, unsubscribing, and suspending
>your list subscription, go to the Stagecraft web site at:
>    http://stagecraft.theprices.net/
>---------------------------------------------------

Mahalo
Eric 



------------------------------

End of Stagecraft Digest #28
****************************