Return-Path: X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/ClamAV http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Lite Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 22114054; Sat, 30 Apr 2005 03:00:22 -0700 X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #382 Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 03:00:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on prxy.net X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.6 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Level: X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4f2 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #382 1. Re: Light lab activities? by "Storms, Randy" 2. Re: tool preferences/ trammel points by Mark O'Brien 3. Re: tool preferences/ trammel points by Mark O'Brien 4. Re: OT Electrical Engineering Question by Daniel Kelly 5. Re: What's going on with the list? by Daniel Kelly 6. New Theater Space by "Eccleston, Mark" 7. Re: What's going on with the list? by David Carrico 8. Open source software by Mike Brubaker 9. Re: Light lab activities? by "Michael Finney" 10. Re: What's going on with the list? by David Elsbury 11. Re: New Theater Space by "Scheu Consulting Services" 12. Re: New Theater Space by Ford H Sellers 13. Re: Storage in a Tiny Theatre by "Scheu Consulting Services" 14. Light lab activities? by 15. Re: New Theater Space by Peter Simmel 16. Re: Light lab activities? by "Weston Wilkerson" 17. Re: Light lab activities? by "C. Dopher" 18. Re: Open source software by Erwin Rol 19. Re: jefferson / adams by "Tony Deeming" 20. Re: Light lab activities? by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 21. Re: Light lab activities? by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 22. Re: Light lab activities? by doran [at] bard.edu 23. Re: Light lab activities? by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 24. Re: Light lab activities? by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 25. Re: OT Electrical Engineering Question by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 26. Re: New Theater Space by Mike Brubaker 27. Re: Light lab activities? by Mark O'Brien 28. A Suggestion for the List by Jacqueline Haney Kidwell 29. Re: Arbor Day by "Paul Guncheon" 30. Re: Bubble Machine Lifts by "Paul Guncheon" 31. Re: Tool Preferences by "Paul Guncheon" 32. Re: Storage in a Tiny Theatre by Bill Sapsis 33. Re: What's going on with the list? by Noah Price 34. Suggestions in St. Petersburg? by David d'Anjou 35. Re: Storage in a Tiny Theatre by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 36. Copper Tubing by "Paul Guncheon" 37. Re: Suggestions in St. Petersburg? by Bill Sapsis 38. Re: Suggestions in St. Petersburg? by Stuart Wheaton 39. Re: jefferson / adams by Stuart Wheaton 40. Re: Storage in a Tiny Theatre by "Scheu Consulting Services" 41. Re: commas by CB 42. Re: Storage in a Tiny Theatre by CB 43. Re: CD-80 flickering problem by CB 44. Re: jefferson / adams by CB 45. Re: jefferson / adams by CB 46. Re: CD-80 flickering problem by CB 47. Re: Light lab activities? by CB 48. Re: Storage in a Tiny Theatre by Dale Farmer 49. Re: OT Electrical Engineering Question by Dale Farmer 50. Re: 3-Phase-Singel Phase (was CD-80 flickering problem) by Mitch Hefter 51. Re: 3-Phase-Singel Phase (was CD-80 flickering problem) by "Christopher K. Nimm" 52. Re: CD-80 flickering problem by "Bill Nelson" 53. Re: OT Electrical Engineering Question by "Bill Nelson" 54. Re: Phasing for Frank was RE: CD-80 flickering problem by "Bill Nelson" 55. Re: Light lab activities? by "Bill Nelson" 56. Re: 3-Phase-Singel Phase (was CD-80 flickering problem) by "Bill Nelson" 57. Re: jefferson / adams by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 58. Re: jefferson / adams by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: Light lab activities? Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:14:41 -0700 Message-ID: <555928311F8B2943B65FC7197942C3B7323A7F [at] es1.bsdnet.wednet.edu> From: "Storms, Randy" Girls, Girls... you're BOTH pretty.... As the current slugfest was apparently originally sparked by a post of = mine, I hereby invoke my privilege as topic progenitor and declare this = thread officially annoying. (Gavel) -- r. Randy Storms rstorms [at] bham.wednet.edu _____________________________________________ >>probably just flip on the light switch >Try not to be a bigger fool than God made you. ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <1ac54ddfb5d20ae312347974f969f227 [at] email.arizona.edu> Cc: marko [at] email.arizona.edu (Mark O'Brien) From: Mark O'Brien Subject: Re: tool preferences/ trammel points Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:24:52 -0700 Here is how I cut a circle out of plywood... 1-Draw the circle in Auto-cad, Vector-works, or Visual-cadd. 2-Export as a DXF 3-Import into Bob-cad. 4-Set my router offset, and make a tool path. 5-Export a G-Code file. 6-Run the G-Code file into the CNC router. 7-Blow the dust off of the perfectly round (+/- .005") circle. OR I could use a string, and a jigsaw, and get a plywood egg... Mark O'Brien Opera Technical Director University of Arizona, School of Music Tucson, AZ 520/621-7025 520/591-1803 Mobile On Apr 29, 2005, at 12:11 PM, Shell Dalzell wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > > --------------------------------------------------- > >> A nail, a piece of string, and a pencil will do a fair job. >> >> Frank Wood > > > Jeez (comma) Frank (comma) you are a freakin genius. I don't know how > paul > and I with a combined shop experience of about 80 years didn't come up > with > that mind blowing solution. > > Aloha, Shell > ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: Cc: marko [at] email.arizona.edu (Mark O'Brien) From: Mark O'Brien Subject: Re: tool preferences/ trammel points Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:35:25 -0700 Actually, this process takes only about 5 minutes. I have always carried the General set of Trammel points in my toolbox for the big stuff, and a small school-box compass as well. This I find helpful to bisect angles, and draw certain polygons. Except for my knees, I really miss laying out the full scale ground-plan in the shop prior to construction. Everyone could help, and offer suggestions as to how the set was going to fit together. Many pitfalls were avoided, and if one made a mistake somewhere, at least the set fit together. (might not have fit in the ballroom, but "it fit in the shop"). Mark O'Brien Opera Technical Director University of Arizona, School of Music Tucson, AZ 520/621-7025 520/591-1803 Mobile On Apr 29, 2005, at 12:24 PM, Mark O'Brien wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Here is how I cut a circle out of plywood... > > 1-Draw the circle in Auto-cad, Vector-works, or Visual-cadd. > > 2-Export as a DXF > > 3-Import into Bob-cad. > > 4-Set my router offset, and make a tool path. > > 5-Export a G-Code file. > > 6-Run the G-Code file into the CNC router. > > 7-Blow the dust off of the perfectly round (+/- .005") circle. > > OR > > I could use a string, and a jigsaw, and get a plywood egg... > > > Mark O'Brien > Opera Technical Director > University of Arizona, School of Music > Tucson, AZ > 520/621-7025 > 520/591-1803 Mobile > > > On Apr 29, 2005, at 12:11 PM, Shell Dalzell wrote: > >> For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> >>> A nail, a piece of string, and a pencil will do a fair job. >>> >>> Frank Wood >> >> >> Jeez (comma) Frank (comma) you are a freakin genius. I don't know >> how paul >> and I with a combined shop experience of about 80 years didn't come >> up with >> that mind blowing solution. >> >> Aloha, Shell >> > ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:37:42 -0400 From: Daniel Kelly Reply-To: Daniel Kelly Subject: Re: OT Electrical Engineering Question In-Reply-To: References: Funny that you mention the streetcar project, because railcars are actually the very thing I'm dealing with. We've got these 40-50 year old Pullman commuter coaches that used to run on the Long Island Railroad. They were originally built to operate on 650VDC that came from the locomotive, which picked that up from the third rail. 480VAC three phase is the standard now, and is what will work universally with the rest of our equipment. They were modified to run on 480 VAC Delta through the use of these gigantic inverters, which are pretty unreliable. On 4/29/05, Jerry Durand wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- >=20 > At 09:26 PM 4/28/2005, you wrote: > >Hmmmm... This is very close to the job of powering the Disney/Alweg > >monorail cars {Models Mark I, II, III, and IV) that are located at the > >various Disney parks, and now in Las Vegas running between the hotels, > >except that the Alweg cars need to see 600VDC from the 480 VAC 3 phase > >delta line, rather than 650VDC that you have called out, IIRC. It appear= s > >that a 4:5 ratio step-up transformer, a big rectifier, and some > >dielectric-filled capacitors are the ingredients for success here. >=20 > Street cars often run on 600VDC, some time back we bid on designing the > control system for a system in S. California. 3 phase power comes in, > charges several buildings full of batteries, and the cars run off the > batteries. That way power failures don't bother them for a while and the= y > also don't charge the batteries during peak power time (about noon to 6pm= ). >=20 >=20 > ---------- > Jerry Durand > Durand Interstellar, Inc. > Los Gatos, California, USA > tel: +1 408 356-3886 > USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 > web: www.interstellar.com >=20 > ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:45:38 -0400 From: Daniel Kelly Reply-To: Daniel Kelly Cc: ben.travis [at] gmail.com (Ben) Subject: Re: What's going on with the list? In-Reply-To: References: i experienced that this morning. On 4/29/05, Ben wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Just wondering... > I got a bounce warning back to my gmail account. Does this mean that > Google is filtering the list? >=20 > Any other gmail users experience this? >=20 > -ben > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <029D880648EA1D49BC9016D1FCAB288001D8C904 [at] cosmo.pei.com> From: "Eccleston, Mark" Subject: New Theater Space Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:48:35 -0500 Hi All, Well my dream may be coming to reality and hopefully it won't be a nightmare. I'm getting the chance to have input into the design and construction for a local performing arts theater. I'd love to get your input as to what to include in the space, what to avoid during the process, who should take on what role in the build, what things do you find are always missing in most theaters and need to be included, etc. Any information and suggestions to help guide us along the way would be greatly appreciated. This will be a learning experience for everyone here so as much information we can get upfront will help easy the pain during the process. Right now we are looking at a proscenium theatre that will seat somewhere between 200 and 500 (the size is being discussed as I type). We'd like to include a counterweight system and complete light and sound packages. Also included will be lobby, green room, dressing rooms, and shop space. Look forward to hearing what you have to say. Respond on or off list. Thanks! Mark S. Eccleston Huntsville, Alabama (256) 694-8575 ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1964cf3b05042912544046fd06 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:54:42 -0400 From: David Carrico Reply-To: David Carrico Cc: limeking [at] gmail.com (Daniel Kelly) Subject: Re: What's going on with the list? In-Reply-To: References: Yes, I too got a bounce warning, and I haven't sent anything to the list! Dave ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050429145657.01c4d1e0 [at] mail.insightbb.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:00:19 -0500 From: Mike Brubaker Subject: Open source software In-Reply-To: References: Charlie, thank you for posting that link. I've been using the software for a week or so, now, and will probably let it go two-three more weeks before I suggest changing over the rest of our computers. A question for Charlie and the list: are there open-source software packages similar to PhotoShop, Illustrator, and Pagemaker? And, of course, the really big one: AutoCAD? Has anyone tried these and what's the verdict? Thanks Mike At 05:13 AM 4/27/2005, Charlie Richmond wrote: >>So true... luckily, smart layout programs like Quark, Pagemaker, Freehand >>and the ilk recognize the 2-space rule, and if it approaches a margin, it >>adjust accordingly, and doesn't leave them in. > >Yes, and if you want to use a nice smart word processor that is fully >compatible with Word's doc files (and many others) download OpenOffice >from www.openoffice.org onto your Windows, Mac, Linux, Unix or Sun >computer and use all the other great apps that come along with it, too! ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Light lab activities? Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:07:41 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Michael Finney" Stephen Litterst wrote: <<*twweeeet* Time to break this up before it gets ugly.>> <> <> Too late! The scary thing is that right after I read Steve's post I walked into a = meeting where an architect said to me (in regards to lighting a building = exterior): "the first thing we have to do is pick the right color to = wash this stone". I knew it - Steve's a witch, and he's controlling my life! Michael Finney Thinkwell Design & Production mfinney [at] thinkwelldesign.com www.thinkwelldesign.com =A0 ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 08:16:14 +1200 From: David Elsbury Reply-To: David Elsbury Subject: Re: What's going on with the list? In-Reply-To: References: From: Ben Subject: Re: What's going on with the list? In-Reply-To: References: >Just wondering...=3D20 >I got a bounce warning back to my gmail account. Does this mean that >Google is filtering the list? >Any other gmail users experience this? *hand up* Me too. Also, could anyone that gets the digest, on Gmail if poss= ible, tell me if at the end of the message it said "message clipped." It was just after Frank's post. Is this something that the list is doing, or something that Gmail is doing? And did I lose much? Regards David --=20 David Elsbury www.absolutelylive.co.nz david.elsbury [at] gmail.com ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Scheu Consulting Services" Subject: RE: New Theater Space Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:25:21 -0400 Organization: Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. Message-ID: <003301c54cf9$91b67a30$c9fea8c0 [at] ROXY> In-reply-to: Mark Eccleston wrote: >I'm getting the chance to have input into the >design and construction for a local performing arts theater. >I'd love to get your input as to what to include in the space, >what to avoid during the process, who should take on what role >in the build, what things do you find are always missing in >most theaters and need to be included, etc. Congratulations! I think... In order not to get too commercial with my reply post here, I responded in detail to Mark off-list. But essentially, one has to start with understanding what your programming goals are. How and for what will the space be used? Without knowing that basic information, it's almost impossible to know how to plan and outfit a theatre. Peter Scheu Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. www.scheuconsulting.com Tel: 315.422.9984 fax: 413.513.4966 ------------------------------ Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.2.20050429162152.033dcd80 [at] postoffice8.mail.cornell.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:31:26 -0400 From: Ford H Sellers Subject: Re: New Theater Space In-Reply-To: Hey Congrats, My two cents: Storage: Often overlooked on the front end is where to put your lights when not in use, where to store Stock Scenery and Props, and a space big enough to paint a drop without encumbering the acting space. In addition I've seen several "Auditoriums" recently which ave the ability to fly things, but only to ceiling height...as the fly loft was cut for budgetary or aesthetic reasons....A complete waste. Other thoughts...A closed LAN for lighting, About 2/3's of your dimmers breaking out of multi-cables from your grid, and Box-Boom lighting positions at the front of house. again, my $.02 -Ford At 03:48 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote: >For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see >--------------------------------------------------- > >Hi All, > >Well my dream may be coming to reality and hopefully it won't be a >nightmare. ... ************************ Ford H Sellers Master Electrician Cornell University Schwartz Center for the Performing Arts 430 College Avenue Ithaca NY, 14850 (607) 254-2736 office (607) 254-2733 fax ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Scheu Consulting Services" Subject: RE: Storage in a Tiny Theatre Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:35:01 -0400 Organization: Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. Message-ID: <003401c54cfa$eb4093a0$c9fea8c0 [at] ROXY> In-reply-to: Shawn Palmer wrote: >When I tried to do it my AHJ told me I'd have to have the space under=20 >the seats tied into the sprinler system. Maybe he was having=20 >a bad day,=20 >but c'mon... I finished a project last year that had some, very limited storage space under the auditorium seating (on concrete risers), accessible only from = the box office. You bet the AHJ wanted it sprinkled! This is not at all usual. With most modern model codes, if a room (or = space) is large enough to contain a significant fuel load (even just "trash"), = the AHJ is going to want it sprinkled. *Especially* if the area is under audience seating. I've even seen sprinklers in counterweight rigging = pits where nothing was "stored" expect the system's floorblocks. Peter Scheu Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. www.scheuconsulting.com Tel: 315.422.9984 fax: 413.513.4966 ------------------------------ Message-ID: <000c01c54cfd$19413d70$0600a8c0 [at] lpt> From: References: Subject: Light lab activities? Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:50:36 -0500 Organization: Minnesota Ballet Putting the this conversation back on track of good teaching methods: A few years ago I went to the Broadway Lighting Master Classes in NY. The thing I liked best was a little color demo with a white dress placed between two lights with colorscrollers. The demo was to show that the less saturated color would appear to be "white." Watching what appeared to be "white" bounce from side to side as the same color got more saturated each time was fun. As for color not being important I've got a horror story to tell. I saw a fashion show at a wedding expo. The last group to model wedding dresses was the oversized category. I guess the light designer wanted to help these women feel better about being "oversized" by dimming the general lights but threw the intelligent scanners into a red color. I cringed as the bridal gowns turned blood red as these women walked the runway. Ken Pogin Production Manager Minnesota Ballet ------------------------------ Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:06:04 -0500 From: Peter Simmel Subject: Re: New Theater Space > >Mark Eccleston wrote: > >>I'm getting the chance to have input into the >>design and construction for a local performing arts theater. > >I'd love to get your input as to what to include in the space, >>what to avoid during the process, who should take on what role >>in the build, what things do you find are always missing in > >most theaters and need to be included, etc. Mark; I am in the same position, except we are at the "first architectural drawings stage." I could spend a great deal of time giving you all sorts of advice. However, to reiterate what I have said to the committee at every meeting over the past three years (Ford said it right in the beginning of his message) STORAGE, STORAGE, STORAGE!. You can never have enough. Every Performing Arts space we visited before we began our planning said they all wished they had included more storage. Peter Simmel U of M ------------------------------ Message-ID: In-Reply-To: From: "Weston Wilkerson" Subject: RE: Light lab activities? Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:15:08 -0400 Was that done by Beverly Emmons? I agree and totally support this project. It is an amazingly interesting exercise. It is actually really easy to do yourself. If you look at the transmission spectra of different gel and then pick ones that are even close, it works like gangbusters. >A few years ago I went to the Broadway Lighting Master Classes in NY. The >thing I liked best was a little color demo with a white dress placed >between two lights with colorscrollers. The demo was to show that the less >saturated color would appear to be "white." Watching what appeared to be >"white" bounce from side to side as the same color got more saturated each >time was fun. > >Ken Pogin >Production Manager >Minnesota Ballet <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Weston Wilkerson University of Tennessee Theater Lighting Design e: Weston_Wilkerson [at] hotmail.com I never ask a man where he’s from. After all, if he’s from Texas he’ll probably tell me, and if he’s not I don’t want to embarrass him. - Don Meredith <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 17:42:46 -0400 Subject: Re: Light lab activities? From: "C. Dopher" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Bill Conner wrote > Frank Wood posted "Colour is largely irrelevant." > > No I ask you, how could any one of us more succintly discredit Frank? > > Perhaps I'm a little prejudiced since I spent three years studying under Tom > Skelton who I believe, among the great lighting designers for the stage, was > a true master in the use of color. He was, yes. So are many current designers, such as Howell Binkley, Natasha Katz, and Don Holder. However, you must admit that a great number of designers have reduced their use of (heavy) color lately, opting for no-color colors or actual un-filtered light, relying on the subtleties of angle, intensity, and cuing. Many Yale designers use NC and L201 (and frost) almost exclusively and there is the WhiteLight collective (on Frank's side of the pond, I believe) that was established expressly because they use only un-filtered sources in their work. If the source has a color, fine. If not, choose a different source. Much as I would like to chip in with the "what to teach" banter, I've (wisely) stayed out of the rest of this thread. Opinions (especially regarding pedagogy and classroom content) are like assholes: everybody's got one and everybody thinks theirs is the only one that isn't full of shit. Off to opening night of my dance concert, Cris Dopher, LD ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Open source software From: Erwin Rol In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:45:04 +0200 Message-Id: <1114811105.5898.14.camel [at] drake.home.erwinrol.com> On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 15:00 -0500, Mike Brubaker wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Charlie, thank you for posting that link. I've been using the software for > a week or so, now, and will probably let it go two-three more weeks before > I suggest changing over the rest of our computers. > > A question for Charlie and the list: are there open-source software > packages similar to PhotoShop, Illustrator, and Pagemaker? And, of course, > the really big one: AutoCAD? Has anyone tried these and what's the verdict? > Gimp www.gimp.org is probably the open source painting program that comes closest to Photoshop. It even works on windows, although its native OS is Linux. For 3D animation like things Blender www.blender.org is a very nice program, it is not a technical CAD program though. Others i don't know, i believe the KDE project has something similar to Illustrator (hell they even (almost) got sued by Adobe for using the name killustrator). > Thanks > Mike -- Erwin Rol Software Engineering - http://www.erwinrol.com ------------------------------ From: "Tony Deeming" Cc: stagecraft [at] jeffsalzberg.com Subject: RE: jefferson / adams Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:04:48 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: -----Original Message----- I'm finding this discussion very depressing, since it reminds me that at one point America had Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Hamilton, Dickinson, and Franklin. ...And now we have Bush, Kerry, Rove..... That's OK - feel sorry for us Brits who have Blair, Howard....... etc! 8-((( Ynot ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:10:12 EDT Subject: Re: Light lab activities? In a message dated 29/04/05 17:54:02 GMT Daylight Time, doran [at] bard.edu writes: > had the good fortune some twenty years ago to work with one of Mr. > Harvey's (at the time, recent) UMD graduates. Steve Draheim was our > lighting designer in a little Summer Stock bar/theater in Ames, Iowa. He > used to tell me about this UMD class assignment they had where they had > to go down by the lake with swatch books, and try to match up the medium > colors to the colors of sunsets, sinrises, midday light, cloudy days, > evenings, you get the picture. Well, the longer I'm in this business, the > more I'm impressed with what that guy could do with a few old tired > insturments, some questionable dimmers, and some pieces of gel. Old, tired instruments. In my time, I've worked with a lot of them. We all have to, sometimes. But putting them in the right places is of major importance. What comes out of them is your paintbrush: what colour paint you dip them in is your choice, Frank Wood ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <87.26af9fa9.2fa40ce1 [at] aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:19:13 EDT Subject: Re: Light lab activities? In a message dated 29/04/05 18:01:59 GMT Daylight Time, mharvey [at] d.umn.edu writes: > Where Frank and I obviously disagree is whether additive color mixing > is relevant to theatre or not. As an American-trained designer, it > would be very difficult for me to give up all the wonderful options > color offers a lighting designer. Different opinions are good. They are constructive discussion. Obviously, each of us thinks that the other is wrong. We come from different traditions, and the ways they react wqith each other is important. But, each of us has something to contribute to the other, Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1114813571.4272b48340e4e [at] webmail.bard.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:26:11 -0400 From: doran [at] bard.edu Subject: Re: Light lab activities? References: In-Reply-To: And on this point, Mr. wood, I could not agree more. Andy C-D Quoting FrankWood95 [at] aol.com: > What comes out of them is your paintbrush: what colour paint you dip them in is your choice, > Frank Wood > ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <1e3.3adc7b93.2fa40f93 [at] aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:30:43 EDT Subject: Re: Light lab activities? In a message dated 29/04/05 18:57:41 GMT Daylight Time, brooklyn [at] dopher.com writes: > I haven't replied on this topic until now because the simple demonstrations > advocated for the one-hour color class, while traditional, seem to me to > miss the mark of what theatre lighting is FOR. Indeed it does. That is what I have been saying.. Frank Wood ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <29.72497adc.2fa41443 [at] aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:50:43 EDT Subject: Re: Light lab activities? In a message dated 29/04/05 20:00:33 GMT Daylight Time, mfinney [at] thinkwelldesign.com writes: > How in the name of all that is even questionably holy do you think that > colour is irrelevant to lighting design? I didn't say that. I just said that it was of secondary importance. You've spent an awful lot of time > telling us how the lighting designer's job is to create a sense of time and > place in service to the reality of an environment created by the scenic > designer and the director and *now* you're telling us that colour has nothing > to do with that? Little or nothing, which is just an opinion. Intensity (relative and absolute), source (location and > type), colour, transition of state, and movement are *all* part of how we > perceive light, and I'd suggest that they're all pretty essential elements > for anybody who wants to call themselves a lighting designer to learn. I don't argue with this statement, in general. I will argue with the priorities you seem to give the components of a lighting design. > > Not that this statement aggravated me, or anything... > > Back to the original question: > > Personally, I like to work with both a single source (that you can drop your > choice of colors in front of), and a CMY set-up of 3 lamps colored > appropriately and dimmed individually (or one CMY source). You can also play > with other 3 color standards (Red/Green/Blue, for instance, or the GAM > primary/secondary colors from their "wheel-o'colour"). Whatever turns you on. You will be able, I suppose, to deduce my opinion of you as a lighting designer. Maybe not. > > Yeah, Frank, I know - no real designer would ever use a moving light, and > LED sources are spectrally inappropriate. We're all using them anyway. It's > our own little set of heresies.... I think that you and I follow different trades. I light stage plays. Heaven alone knows what you illuminate. Frank Wood ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:03:14 EDT Subject: Re: OT Electrical Engineering Question In a message dated 29/04/05 20:38:19 GMT Daylight Time, limeking [at] gmail.com writes: > Funny that you mention the streetcar project, because railcars are > actually the very thing I'm dealing with. We've got these 40-50 year > old Pullman commuter coaches that used to run on the Long Island > Railroad. They were originally built to operate on 650VDC that came > from the locomotive, which picked that up from the third rail. 480VAC > three phase is the standard now, and is what will work universally > with the rest of our equipment. They were modified to run on 480 VAC > Delta through the use of these gigantic inverters, which are pretty > unreliable. For curiosity, how do you pick up 480V three-phase? Most electric railways use 15/6.25 KV supplies from overhead connectors, or 600V DC from a third rail, Some, such as the Eurostar, use both. This must be a real pain. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050429180053.01c4a890 [at] mail.insightbb.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:08:10 -0500 From: Mike Brubaker Subject: Re: New Theater Space In-Reply-To: References: Consider off-site storage for the vast majority of the things you need to store. Why? Because at $250-$350 a square foot, storage inside a theatre building is some of the most expensive empty space to create. You are absolutely correct, you can never have enough (ask my wife). On the other hand, a pole barn or Butler building can be constructed for under $75 a square foot, probably. For the same amount of $$, that's a lot more storage. Consider what you actually NEED on site--that's what you need to plan building storage around. It also is easier to convince the PTB and the architects that you need a space of this size by this size to house _________ than it is to say "we need storage for stuff". Mike At 05:06 PM 4/29/2005, Peter Simmel wrote: Mark; I am in the same position, except we are at the "first architectural drawings stage." I could spend a great deal of time giving you all sorts of advice. However, to reiterate what I have said to the committee at every meeting over the past three years (Ford said it right in the beginning of his message) STORAGE, STORAGE, STORAGE!. You can never have enough ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <5aaf2a8177a923cc5b296de5f325a750 [at] email.arizona.edu> Cc: marko [at] email.arizona.edu (Mark O'Brien) From: Mark O'Brien Subject: Re: Light lab activities? Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:43:17 -0700 I think we all need a break from all this color/ no color/ light/ no light (comma) debate. http://www.boohbah.com/zone.html Mark O'Brien Opera Technical Director University of Arizona, School of Music Tucson, AZ 520/621-7025 520/591-1803 Mobile ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20050429234744.82632.qmail [at] web52005.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:47:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jacqueline Haney Kidwell Subject: A Suggestion for the List In-Reply-To: 6667 Folks-- We have somehow gotten to the point that there are over 100 posts to this list in less than a day. While I enjoy the group in general, I have a suggestion: READ before you reply. Read the whole digest. If what you were about to say has already been said, don't waste your time posting it. If you have responses to several posts on the same thread, combine them into one coherent whole. I'm generally a fan of the off-topic conversations that get started, but when we are hashing and rehashing and rerehashing the same comments with the same whole mess appended it's getting hard to sort out the useful stuff from the chaff. And Frank, isn't it about time you left for France? Jacqueline Haney Kidwell __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:56:54 -1000 From: "Paul Guncheon" Subject: Re: Arbor Day Message-id: <000c01c54d1f$8162fc00$0202a8c0 [at] yourxhtr8hvc4p> References: <> Yeah... like you can do correctly without the tree. Actually until I saw it in print, I thought it celebrated my Uncle Clem. Later, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:56:56 -1000 From: "Paul Guncheon" Subject: Re: Bubble Machine Lifts Message-id: <000d01c54d1f$82e52f30$0202a8c0 [at] yourxhtr8hvc4p> References: <> Hmmm, wretched excess or necessity spawning invention? Some thoughts: Hang them from cables or ropes on pulleys. Untie them and lower them. Make a pole that will hook onto the machine and lift it off the grid. Attach them to small electric winches. Run them til the tanks dry, find out what a mess they make, it may not be a problem. Laters, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 15:05:50 -1000 From: "Paul Guncheon" Subject: Re: Tool Preferences Message-id: <001101c54d20$c1102480$0202a8c0 [at] yourxhtr8hvc4p> References: > < used for drawing circles on blackboards. When I was a college TD, I > kept one of these in one of my scene shop. I found it very useful for > drawing circles and arcs with a radius of 4" to 18".>> > > I have / had one of those... I found it useful for drawing circles on > chalkboards but not much else... not accurate, too big and unwieldy. > > again, probably just me. For me, a pencil or stick of chalk and a piece of string work fine. Frank Wood>> I will not rise to this... but it sure is tempting. Laters, Paul "I've deduced that this is the right way," said Tom pathologically. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 21:16:35 -0400 Subject: Re: Storage in a Tiny Theatre From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: on 4/29/05 4:35 PM, Scheu Consulting Services at peter [at] scheuconsulting.com wrote: > I've even seen sprinklers in counterweight rigging pits > where nothing was "stored" expect the system's floorblocks. Yeah, well...maybe nothing was stored there when you designed it, but you can bet it became a trash receptacle in very short order after the students took over. The Univ. I went to had a tradition. When the paint frame pit was filled with broken beer bottles, the freshman had to clean it out. Icky Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Please support the Long Reach Long Riders on their 2nd annual benefit ride http://sapsis-rigging.com/LRLR.html ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: From: Noah Price Subject: Re: What's going on with the list? Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:26:05 -0700 On Apr 28, 2005, at 8:37 AM, CB wrote: > I missed #373, #375, and #376. You can retrieve these at On Apr 29, 2005, at 10:01 AM, Ben wrote: > I got a bounce warning back to my gmail account. Does this mean that > Google is filtering the list? Hard to tell. They rejected the list address with the error: 530 5.7.0 Authentication Required That almost looks like a temporary misconfiguration. It just happened on a couple messages and on digest #379, but since 530 is a hard failure, it triggers the warning. I've restored all Gmail accounts, but it's always safest to reply to the "WARNING" once. On Apr 29, 2005, at 12:54 PM, David Carrico wrote: > Yes, I too got a bounce warning, and I haven't sent anything to the > list! The warning means the list got a bounce sending mail to you. You'll get a standard bounce message if you send something to the list that can't get through. On Apr 29, 2005, at 1:16 PM, David Elsbury wrote: > *hand up* Me too. Also, could anyone that gets the digest, on Gmail if > possible, > tell me if at the end of the message it said "message clipped." It was Look it up on the web site by digest number ------------------------------ Message-ID: <96c90e3405042919096561d9df [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 22:09:58 -0400 From: David d'Anjou Reply-To: David d'Anjou Subject: Suggestions in St. Petersburg? Does anyone have any experience in St. Petersburg, Russia? I am there next week lighting a dance show. Any suggestions or advice are appreciated - - places to go, people to meet, things to watch out for at the Mikahailovsky Theatre. =20 -David d'Anjou ------------------------------ From: "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" Subject: RE: Storage in a Tiny Theatre Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:12:53 -0700 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wise words, Mr. Wood. -- Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson, Risk International & Associates, Inc. - www.riskit.com Latest workshops for Educational and Entertainment Industry Performing Arts Personnel (Riggers, and Public Assembly and Educational Technicians) www.riskit.com/workshops International Secondary Education Theater Safety Association (ISETSA) - www.isetsa.org -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 10:26 AM To: Stagecraft Subject: Re: Storage in a Tiny Theatre For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 28/04/05 04:30:41 GMT Daylight Time, dale [at] cybercom.net writes: > Storage > in a theater is always a problem. Lighting stuff can be left hanging in the > air until you need it. Sets take up a lot of space, and don't often > compact > very well. The amount of gear to be stored expands to fill the available space, and probably to overflow it. Props are usually the biggest problem. Furniture is bulky, and hard to store neatly. For sets, I'm afraid that the only real answer is to be ruthless. While flats are fairly simple, built pieces are not. I'm afraid that the only answer is to take them apart, salvage what you can store, and trash the rest. I hate doing it, but you have to. It costs more, and it's more work. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:39:13 -1000 From: "Paul Guncheon" Subject: Copper Tubing Message-id: <000701c54d2d$cca30530$0202a8c0 [at] yourxhtr8hvc4p> References: I am starting on a project involving a rather larger number of copper fitttings and copper 3/4" pipe. Does anyone have a schedule for the amount of length a "T" will add to the finished length... a 90 degree elbow? For instance, amd making a rectangle and need a finished ID of one side to be 73 inches. On either end is an elbow and there are 4 equally spaced "tee's". How long should the pipe sections be? I know I can figure it out but... or .... I did ask earlier about anyone having a good techinque for polishing copper but did not receive 3 digests which would have contained any answers. So if anyone does have a super techinque, please either repost it or send it to me privately. Laters, "This is my impression of a lion, Tom roared. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:09:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Suggestions in St. Petersburg? From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: on 4/29/05 10:09 PM, David d'Anjou at ddanjou [at] gmail.com wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Does anyone have any experience in St. Petersburg, Russia? I am there > next week lighting a dance show. Any suggestions or advice are > appreciated - - places to go, people to meet, things to watch out for > at the Mikahailovsky Theatre. > > -David d'Anjou There's a little pool hall on the 2nd floor of Nevsky Prospect (did I spell that right?) up near the castle district. You'll have to ask around to find it. Don't go alone. During the afternoon's there used to be a dixieland jazz band near one of the ritzier hotels. Can't remember the name of it. Karl? The band was pretty good and it's the only place you'll see a Hawaiian shirt in the whole town. The Japanese restaurant on the canal on the way to the Cathedral of St. John's Blood...the one with all the cool tile work, is also really good. The crippled kids who beg for money near the cathedral aren't, but they're pretty good actors, so throw them a coin or two. The ex-pat bar over by Horseman square is OK, but I wouldn't make a special trip. Don't drink the water, ever. Brush your teeth with beer. The Hermitage is amazing but you'll need at least a month to do it right. And that's only if you go _every_ day. But above all else, meet the people. On the surface they can be a bit chilly and somewhat intimidating, but underneath, they're as nice as can be. Zat help? Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Please support the Long Reach Long Riders on their 2nd annual benefit ride http://sapsis-rigging.com/LRLR.html ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4272FED9.4000608 [at] fuse.net> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:43:21 -0400 From: Stuart Wheaton Subject: Re: Suggestions in St. Petersburg? References: In-Reply-To: Bill Sapsis wrote: >>Does anyone have any experience in St. Petersburg, Russia? I am there >>next week lighting a dance show. Any suggestions or advice are >>appreciated - - places to go, people to meet, things to watch out for >>at the Mikahailovsky Theatre. >> >>-David d'Anjou > > > There's a little pool hall on the 2nd floor of Nevsky Prospect (did I spell > that right?) Nope, used the entirely wrong alphabet. I'm so Jealous of both of you guys. I had a chance to go once... we were stuck in Finland with a week of lost containers and the boss said I could go if I wanted to. Short notice visas are VERY expensive, nobody else wanted to go, I had no Russian guides or dictionairies, and it had been 10 years since Russian class. It would have cost me at least a grand, and been high stress so I didn't do it... I will go there someday. Have a great time. Stuart ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4273023B.9090500 [at] fuse.net> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:57:47 -0400 From: Stuart Wheaton Subject: Re: jefferson / adams References: In-Reply-To: Tony Deeming wrote: > I'm finding this discussion very depressing, since it reminds me that at > one point America had Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Hamilton, Dickinson, > and Franklin. > > ...And now we have Bush, Kerry, Rove..... > > > That's OK - feel sorry for us Brits who have Blair, Howard....... etc! > > 8-((( > > Ynot At least you have "Question Time" which we could use to cause Bush's telemetry pack to short out and his itty bitty brain to burst. ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Scheu Consulting Services" Subject: RE: Storage in a Tiny Theatre Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 00:01:57 -0400 Organization: Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. Message-ID: <000401c54d39$5a892860$c9fea8c0 [at] ROXY> In-reply-to: Bill Sapsis wrote: >Yeah, well...maybe nothing was stored there when you designed >it, but you can bet it became a trash receptacle in very short >order after the students took over. Maybe I should start spacing a garbage disposal in the counterweight pit sump pump... Peter Scheu Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. www.scheuconsulting.com Tel: 315.422.9984 fax: 413.513.4966 ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050429184002.00ae8e50 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:40:02 From: CB Subject: RE: commas >I find as I've grown older (and more used to online communication) that >properly-implemented block paragraphs really do kick ass as far as >readability is concerned (all else being equal, of course). If they're buried in twenty-six paragraphs of previously-posted previous posts, however, they might as well be in greek for all the good' it'll do. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I really cannot take seriously the advice of a technician that still can't figure out how to trim their replies without help. Even less so after the number of pleasant requests that are continuallyignored on the list. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound OTR Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050429181750.00ae8e50 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:17:50 From: CB Subject: Re: Storage in a Tiny Theatre >The amount of gear to be stored expands to fill the available space, and >probably to overflow it. This is a paraphrase of 'Chris' First Law of Ladies' Handbags'. (See: Chris' Gravitational Postulate' and other rules of life.) Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound OTR Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050429192447.00ae8e50 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:24:47 From: CB Subject: Re: CD-80 flickering problem > Pay attention to this guy, he obviously knows what the heck he is talking about. No lowly squint, he. More of a rennaisance man, poet, philosopher, etc. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound OTR Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050429184701.00ae8e50 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:47:01 From: CB Subject: RE: jefferson / adams >Gee, you wouldn't be close with anyone over at the beer company, would >you? *wink, wink* > >Now there's some swag I could really appreciate! I'd like to take that as an opportunity to thank the efforts of the list in general, and one individual in particular, for getting me my annual fix of Leinenkugels's beer. This year, unfortunately, I was on the road and the beer went (I believe) to the sister-in-law's parents, and fortunately, I was in Toledo where it is available on the shelf of the state run liquor store! Thanks! Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound OTR Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050429190542.00ae8e50 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:05:42 From: CB Subject: Re: jefferson / adams >Remember, a lot of a little, is still a lot... >> At the end of the tour you can sample the beer. You just have >> to use those tiny little sampling cups instead. Somehow I knew that Mark would beat me to this. Yeah, the brewery tour is better IMHO than the aquarium (which is quite nice, but no beer), and the bar is very charming and comfortable, even when it it is loaded with tourists. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound OTR Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050429192846.00ae8e50 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:28:46 From: CB Subject: Re: CD-80 flickering problem >> Ironin that I'll be seeing this again and again, as you are obviously the only one. "Us" seems to be you and the mouse in your pocket... Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound OTR Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050429200058.00ae8e50 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:00:58 From: CB Subject: Re: Light lab activities? >Look at paintings. Look at the way a Vermeer is lit, Look at the movie, 'The Girl with the Pearl Earring'. The Designer wanted the film to resemble teh paintings of Vermeer as much as possible, and the light that was available for Vermeer to actually have worked with. As far as I'm concerned (as a skweek) I think it was a remarkable success. And yes, the grip electricians used a lot of colour, Frank. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound OTR Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-ID: <427305CF.ED01E09B [at] cybercom.net> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 00:13:03 -0400 From: Dale Farmer Organization: The fuzz in the back of the fridge. Subject: Re: Storage in a Tiny Theatre References: Shawn Palmer wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Bruce Purdy wrote: > > >>We are just hoping to hear any neat ways of > >>hiding stuff. I'm thinking this theatre has to be built like a houseboat, > >>storage at every turn, neatly tucked away. A place for everything, everything > >>in its place. > > > > > > I can dig it, Chris. > > > > One question: Will the audience seating be on the floor or will you have > > tiered platforming for them? If you do, then under those platforms might be > > potential storage space. Cabinets? > > > > Bruce > > When I tried to do it my AHJ told me I'd have to have the space under > the seats tied into the sprinler system. Maybe he was having a bad day, > but c'mon... If you are creating a new storage room, especially one that audience seating is right on top of, having the space inside sprinklered make a lot of sense. Smoldering fires in spaces with poor air circulation are breeding grounds for what's called a flashover. Someone is searching for the source of that smoke smell, open the door, room air whooshes in, hot unburned gases whoosh out and ignite explosively. You will literally be blown over ( and badly burned as well ) by the shock wave of burning gas coming out. --Dale ------------------------------ Message-ID: <427309C4.77144976 [at] cybercom.net> Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 00:29:57 -0400 From: Dale Farmer Organization: The fuzz in the back of the fridge. Subject: Re: OT Electrical Engineering Question References: Daniel Kelly wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Funny that you mention the streetcar project, because railcars are > actually the very thing I'm dealing with. We've got these 40-50 year > old Pullman commuter coaches that used to run on the Long Island > Railroad. They were originally built to operate on 650VDC that came > from the locomotive, which picked that up from the third rail. 480VAC > three phase is the standard now, and is what will work universally > with the rest of our equipment. They were modified to run on 480 VAC > Delta through the use of these gigantic inverters, which are pretty > unreliable. All of the streetcar/subway systems I've ever dealt with run on dc somewhere in the 600-700 volt range. Longer distance trains tend to use even higher voltages, presumably for the transmission efficiencies. These sorts of converters are probably standard products from the big electrical gear makers. Try GE. BTW, are you in Arkansas? Friend of mine who recently moved out there spotted them and was kinda freaked that these LIRR cars had followed him all the way out there from his childhood. --Dale ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.1.0.6.2.20050429223133.031072d8 [at] mail.DesignRelief.com> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:27:49 -0500 From: Mitch Hefter Subject: Re: 3-Phase-Singel Phase (was CD-80 flickering problem) Frank Wood wrote: > > Residences are almost exclusively single phase. > > > > For the 120/240 system: If you connect across the two feeders, you get 240 > > volts. If you connect from a feeder to the common, then you get 120 volts. > > The voltage is in phase in both of the legs, even though there are two > > legs, which it is called single phase. > >No, it is not. It is in anti-phase. > > > For our dimmers at the theatre, we are on single phase. There are two hot > > leads plus a common. There is also an equipment ground. That is why Don > > stated there were three conductors plus a ground. > >By me, that is two-phase. From here, single phase implies one live feed, and >one neutral. Period. Yes, but . . . The reason single-phase, 3-wire is called single-phase is that it is derived from one side of a delta transformer. Instead of a delta-wye (or delta-star), the transformer is a delta-delta. On the secondary delta, corner to corner is 240v (in most US domestic applications). If you center tap one of the sides, you will have 120v from corner to center tap, 120v from the other corner to center tap. Thus the term, single-phase, as you are deriving both 240 volt and 120 volt from just one phase ("side") of the delta transformer, using 3- wires. The readings off of one "1/2" are 180 degrees from the other "half." The hot conductors are to be labeled L1 and L2 as they are two Legs off the same phase. The center tap is the neutral. These hots should not be labeled A and B, as that implies they are part of a three-phase circuit. ( Just to make it more interesting, the voltage from the "opposite" corner of the delta secondary to the center tap is different - 208 vac. This last corner is known as the wild leg, flying leg, bastard leg, or stinger depending on your local jargon. Conductors off of this wild leg are required to be orange per the NEC. ) So this 120/240 vac system really is single phase, despite our intuition to call it two-phase. There is a true 2-phase, 3-wire system where the phases are 90 degrees apart, but it really is impractical and not normally used (particularly in our industry). Also, there are two-phase, four wire; two-phase, 5-wire, 6-phase and 12-phase systems. This use of the term "single-phase, 3-wire" is an unfortunate terminology, but it is what we have to live with. While it is accurate, many people do not always understand the distinction. Whenever I am asked about single-phase power related to our products, I have to ask whether they mean single-phase, 2-wire 120 vac or single phase, 3-wire 120/240vac. Then there is the occasional single-phase, 3-wire 120/208, which usually means they have a standard 3-phase, 4-wire wye (star), but are only using 2 of the 3 phases. Figure 1 on http://www.ecmweb.com/mag/electric_understanding_basics_wye/ illustrates both delta-wye and delta-delta, with a single-phase, 3-wire tap on one side of the delta secondary. Another illustration can be found at http://www.mikeholt.com/instructor2/img/product/pdf/1038325200sample.pdf Hope this helps. BTW, we are planning a Stump the Electrician session at USITT 2006 in Louisville. . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------ Mitch Hefter stagecraft [at] DesignRelief.com Member NEC Panel 15 Office: Entertainment Technology / a Division of the Genlyte Group mhefter [at] genlyte.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <001e01c54d4b$248fffb0$6501a8c0 [at] tamiasuis> From: "Christopher K. Nimm" References: Subject: Re: 3-Phase-Singel Phase (was CD-80 flickering problem) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:09:15 -0500 I've followed many a discussion on phased power now, and have still yet to understand it completely. Can anyone recommend a book (or comparable resource) that he or she finds useful on the subject? Chris Nimm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitch Hefter" To: "Stagecraft" Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 11:27 PM Subject: Re: 3-Phase-Singel Phase (was CD-80 flickering problem) > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Frank Wood wrote: >> > Residences are almost exclusively single phase. >> > >> > For the 120/240 system: If you connect across the two feeders, you get >> > 240 >> > volts. If you connect from a feeder to the common, then you get 120 >> > volts. >> > The voltage is in phase in both of the legs, even though there are two >> > legs, which it is called single phase. >> >>No, it is not. It is in anti-phase. >> >> > For our dimmers at the theatre, we are on single phase. There are two >> > hot >> > leads plus a common. There is also an equipment ground. That is why >> > Don >> > stated there were three conductors plus a ground. >> >>By me, that is two-phase. From here, single phase implies one live feed, >>and >>one neutral. Period. > > Yes, but . . . > > The reason single-phase, 3-wire is called single-phase is that it is > derived from one side of a delta transformer. Instead of a delta-wye (or > delta-star), the transformer is a delta-delta. On the secondary delta, > corner to corner is 240v (in most US domestic applications). If you > center tap one of the sides, you will have 120v from corner to center tap, > 120v from the other corner to center tap. Thus the term, single-phase, as > you are deriving both 240 volt and 120 volt from just one phase ("side") > of the delta transformer, using 3- wires. The readings off of one "1/2" > are 180 degrees from the other "half." The hot conductors are to be > labeled L1 and L2 as they are two Legs off the same phase. The center tap > is the neutral. These hots should not be labeled A and B, as that implies > they are part of a three-phase circuit. > > ( Just to make it more interesting, the voltage from the "opposite" corner > of the delta secondary to the center tap is different - 208 vac. This > last corner is known as the wild leg, flying leg, bastard leg, or stinger > depending on your local jargon. Conductors off of this wild leg are > required to be orange per the NEC. ) > > So this 120/240 vac system really is single phase, despite our intuition > to call it two-phase. There is a true 2-phase, 3-wire system where the > phases are 90 degrees apart, but it really is impractical and not normally > used (particularly in our industry). Also, there are two-phase, four > wire; two-phase, 5-wire, 6-phase and 12-phase systems. > > This use of the term "single-phase, 3-wire" is an unfortunate terminology, > but it is what we have to live with. While it is accurate, many people do > not always understand the distinction. Whenever I am asked about > single-phase power related to our products, I have to ask whether they > mean single-phase, 2-wire 120 vac or single phase, 3-wire 120/240vac. Then > there is the occasional single-phase, 3-wire 120/208, which usually means > they have a standard 3-phase, 4-wire wye (star), but are only using 2 of > the 3 phases. > > Figure 1 on http://www.ecmweb.com/mag/electric_understanding_basics_wye/ > illustrates both delta-wye and delta-delta, with a single-phase, 3-wire > tap on one side of the delta secondary. Another illustration can be found > at > http://www.mikeholt.com/instructor2/img/product/pdf/1038325200sample.pdf > > Hope this helps. > > BTW, we are planning a Stump the Electrician session at USITT 2006 in > Louisville. > > > . . . > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Mitch Hefter stagecraft [at] DesignRelief.com > Member NEC Panel 15 > > Office: Entertainment Technology / a Division of the Genlyte Group > mhefter [at] genlyte.com > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <2378.64.28.53.13.1114845751.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 00:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: CD-80 flickering problem From: "Bill Nelson" Neither the recently purchased lighting board or the converter are the problem. They were eliminated by substituting back in the old Mantrix board which has been working for many years. The flickering still occurred with the old board and cable to the wall connector. Bill ------------------------------ Message-ID: <2393.64.28.53.13.1114846520.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 00:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: OT Electrical Engineering Question From: "Bill Nelson" > Not too much bandwidth here. A straightforward three-phase rectifier will > do > most of what is needed. It depends on how tolerant the DC end is of > ripple. > Failing that, a mighty DC-DC converter is another option. These are not > cheap. I > will consult a friend, who deals with the control gear for such monsters. Sometimes, a motor/generator is the best solution. You use a three phase motor to drive a DC generator. It is straightforward and generally troublefree. The problem, in this case, would be finding a large enough motor. That size generator is less difficult to locate. Bill ------------------------------ Message-ID: <2401.64.28.53.13.1114846983.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 00:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Phasing for Frank was RE: CD-80 flickering problem From: "Bill Nelson" > I'm aware of its existance, and of the reasons for it. With the US lower > voltage supplies, heavy current appliances would cost an arm and a leg in > cable. Even in 230V-land, my cooker has a 40A feed. Standard wiring for stoves/ovens in the US are either 50A or 60A. That is not much higher than in the UK. At most, it is one wire gauge larger. Apparently, your cookers are higher wattage than ours. Bill ------------------------------ Message-ID: <2434.64.28.53.13.1114849046.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Light lab activities? From: "Bill Nelson" > The scary thing is that right after I read Steve's post I walked into a > meeting where an architect said to me (in regards to lighting a building > exterior): "the first thing we have to do is pick the right color to wash > this stone". Did you make the obvious reply? " That is why you are an architect and I am a lighting designer?" Bill ------------------------------ Message-ID: <2468.64.28.53.13.1114851119.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 01:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: 3-Phase-Singel Phase (was CD-80 flickering problem) From: "Bill Nelson" Hi, Mitch. Thanks for clarifying the matter. But I doubt if Frank will ever accept the feed as single phase, regardless of the facts. As you note, it is unfortunate that there are two possible single phase designs, but we live in a real world - not an ideal one. The feed to our theatre is interesting. They are using a wye connection, rather than a delta transformer. There are three separate pole pigs, one for each phase. Of course, the "commons" are all connected together. Bill ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: jefferson / adams Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 05:50:30 -0400 Message-ID: <000201c54d6a$102e9e90$6601a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > and the bar is very charming and > comfortable, even when it it is loaded with tourists. ...Who themselves are loaded. ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: jefferson / adams Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 05:53:45 -0400 Message-ID: <000301c54d6a$8335cb20$6601a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > At least you have "Question Time" which we could use to > cause Bush's telemetry pack to short out and his itty bitty > brain to burst. Too bad theatre companies don't have some version of the PM's questions: "In a theatre with a 13' grid, why did you cast an 6'-1" Romeo, and then complain that his head hits the grid when he's on the balcony?" ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #382 *****************************