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X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 22965842; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 03:00:52 -0700 X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #422 Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 03:00:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on prxy.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.7 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, DRUGS_ANXIETY,DRUGS_ANXIETY_EREC,DRUGS_DIET,DRUGS_ERECTILE, DRUGS_MANYKINDS,DRUGS_MUSCLE,DRUGS_PAIN,DRUGS_SLEEP,DRUGS_SLEEP_EREC autolearn=no version=3.0.3 X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4f2 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #422 1. Stubborn carriage bolts by usctd [at] columbia.sc 2. Re: New ???? by "Stephen E. Rees" 3. Re: Stubborn carriage bolts by doran [at] bard.edu 4. Re: New ???? by "Paul Schreiner" 5. Re: Stubborn carriage bolts by Steve Larson 6. Re: Stubborn carriage bolts by "Kurt Pragman" 7. Re: Stubborn carriage bolts by "Randy B." 8. Re: Stubborn carriage bolts by admin [at] mtangelperformingarts.com 9. Re: New ???? by Mike Brubaker 10. Re: Rigging Question by Michael Powers 11. Re: Stubborn carriage bolts by "Frank E. Merrill" 12. Re: Pipe grid material by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 13. Re: Pipe grid material by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 14. Re: Pipe grid material by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 15. Re: Pipe grid material by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 16. copyright by Jerry Durand 17. Re: copyright - form 4:33 John Cage by IAEG [at] aol.com 18. Re: copyright - form 4:33 John Cage more info by IAEG [at] aol.com 19. Re: copyright - form 4:33 John Cage more info by Jerry Durand 20. Re: copyright by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 21. Re: copyright by Charlie Richmond 22. Re: copyright by "Tom Heemskerk" 23. Re: copyright by "Tom Heemskerk" 24. Re: copyright by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 25. hearing loss by CB 26. Re: Rigging question by June Abernathy 27. Re: Rigging Question by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 28. Re: hearing loss by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 29. Re: Rigging Question by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 30. Re: Rigging Question by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 31. Hey, by CB 32. Re: Hey, by Greg Bierly 33. Re: Hey, by "Tony Deeming" 34. Re: Hey, by "Andy Leviss" 35. Re: Stubborn carriage bolts by Patrick McCreary 36. Re: Rigging Question by Delbert Hall 37. Re: Stubborn carriage bolts by Stuart Wheaton 38. Re: Stubborn carriage bolts by usctd [at] columbia.sc 39. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by usctd [at] columbia.sc 40. Re: Rigging Question by Michael Powers 41. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by Mat Goebel 42. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by "Tony Deeming" 43. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by "Chris Warner" *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message-ID: <1962.65.184.112.59.1118232495.squirrel [at] webmail.columbia.sc> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:08:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stubborn carriage bolts From: usctd [at] columbia.sc Hey all. I almost marked this one "OT" since it does not a have to do with scenery, but hardware is hardware. In the process of moving to Pa, I am disassembling my kids playset that we purchased a couple years ago. It's cedar. The hardware used to assemble it is carriage bolts that thread to a threaded insert. You tighten it by using an allen wrench on the end of the insert, and the head of the bolt digs into the wood. (just like a c-bolt, go figure) Fast forward two years and as I knew would happen, the nuts are seized up on the bolts and the head has no gripping power. It just spins and spins and spins..... Any ideas on how to remove the stubborn half a dozen or so bolts I can't get out? I was thinking of using a sawzall with a metal blade to get between the joint and cut the bolt in half. I figure this would cause the least damage to the structure. Thanks for the help. The moving truck gets here tomorrow!! -- Eric Rouse TD-University of SC, Columbia Freelance Foyboy ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42A6E4E8.6030901 [at] fredonia.edu> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:30:32 -0400 From: "Stephen E. Rees" Reply-To: Rees [at] fredonia.edu Subject: Re: New ???? References: Congrats and Best Wishes to you all! Let the adventure begin! Steve Rees SUNY-Fredonia Mike Brubaker wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Not sure what the future holds for her, me, or her mother, but arriving > this morning: > > Jillian Nicole Brubaker > 8 lb 6 oz > 20 inches > > FEET FIRST, by Caesarian. > > Mother and baby are doing great! > > Mike ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1118235041.42a6e9a1573cf [at] webmail.bard.edu> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:50:41 -0400 From: doran [at] bard.edu Subject: Re: Stubborn carriage bolts References: In-Reply-To: Quoting usctd [at] columbia.sc: I was thinking of using a sawzall with a metal blade to get > between the joint and cut the bolt in half. I figure this would cause the > least damage to the structure > -- > Eric Rouse Either that, Eric, or you could try drilling into the end of the insert and bolt with the same size bit as the major diameter of the bolt. Any damage done either way can be repaired with a Cedar plug or offcut glued with Titebond II or Titebond II, both waterproof one part wood glues. Then, just dill or cut when you reassemble. Hope this is helpful, Andy C-D ------------------------------ Subject: RE: New ???? Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 09:30:29 -0400 Message-ID: <6E497ADB607656479C24E6D7BF6B505A0196C838 [at] exchange.rmwc.edu> From: "Paul Schreiner" > FEET FIRST, by Caesarian. That's so she can hit the ground running... Be afraid. Be very afraid. And proud. Congratulations! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:29:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Stubborn carriage bolts From: Steve Larson Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Whatever you do, you're in a pickle. Steve Then, just dill or > cut when you reassemble. > > Hope this is helpful, > Andy C-D > > > ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Kurt Pragman" Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:14:12 -0400 Organization: www.PragmanProductionServices.com Message-ID: <001a01c56c3c$bb564d40$0200a8c0 [at] shark> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: Stubborn carriage bolts Can you grind slots into the carriage bolts for your flathead screwdriver or have they dug too far in? -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of usctd [at] columbia.sc Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:08 AM To: Stagecraft Subject: Stubborn carriage bolts For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Hey all. I almost marked this one "OT" since it does not a have to do with scenery, but hardware is hardware. In the process of moving to Pa, I am disassembling my kids playset that we purchased a couple years ago. It's cedar. The hardware used to assemble it is carriage bolts that thread to a threaded insert. You tighten it by using an allen wrench on the end of the insert, and the head of the bolt digs into the wood. (just like a c-bolt, go figure) Fast forward two years and as I knew would happen, the nuts are seized up on the bolts and the head has no gripping power. It just spins and spins and spins..... Any ideas on how to remove the stubborn half a dozen or so bolts I can't get out? I was thinking of using a sawzall with a metal blade to get between the joint and cut the bolt in half. I figure this would cause the least damage to the structure. Thanks for the help. The moving truck gets here tomorrow!! -- Eric Rouse TD-University of SC, Columbia Freelance Foyboy ------------------------------ Message-ID: <004501c56c3d$b2898910$b4504898 [at] GLOBAL.SCJ.LOC> From: "Randy B." References: Subject: Re: Stubborn carriage bolts Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:21:06 -0500 Spray the threaded insert end with PB Blaster or some other penetrating oil. Try to grip the head of the bolt with a pair of vise grips (long nose variety). This has worked for me. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Stagecraft" Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 7:08 AM Subject: Stubborn carriage bolts > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Hey all. I almost marked this one "OT" since it does not a have to do > with scenery, but hardware is hardware. > > In the process of moving to Pa, I am disassembling my kids playset that we > purchased a couple years ago. It's cedar. The hardware used to assemble > it is carriage bolts that thread to a threaded insert. You tighten it by > using an allen wrench on the end of the insert, and the head of the bolt > digs into the wood. (just like a c-bolt, go figure) Fast forward two > years and as I knew would happen, the nuts are seized up on the bolts and > the head has no gripping power. It just spins and spins and spins..... > > Any ideas on how to remove the stubborn half a dozen or so bolts I can't > get out? I was thinking of using a sawzall with a metal blade to get > between the joint and cut the bolt in half. I figure this would cause the > least damage to the structure. > > Thanks for the help. The moving truck gets here tomorrow!! > -- > Eric Rouse > TD-University of SC, Columbia > Freelance Foyboy > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:32:18 -0700 From: admin [at] mtangelperformingarts.com Subject: Re: Stubborn carriage bolts In-reply-to: Message-id: <42A70F82.2060003 [at] mtangelperformingarts.com> References: Get a large C-Clamp ... Put one end on the nut, the other adjacent to the head of the carriage bolt. As you tighten the clamp, the wood will compress and the bolt head will push out of the wood giving you enough to clamp on a vise-grip Carla >-----Original Message----- >From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of >usctd [at] columbia.sc >Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:08 AM >To: Stagecraft >Subject: Stubborn carriage bolts > > > ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.0.14.0.20050608103453.0632aea8 [at] mail.insightbb.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:38:07 -0500 From: Mike Brubaker Subject: Re: New ???? In-Reply-To: References: Funny, her great-grandma said some of the same things! As her mother would attest, she was a kicker all through the pregnancy. Whole new meaning to landing on her feet... Thank you, all. Mike At 09:26 PM 6/7/2005, Bruce Purdy wrote: >Future dancer? At 10:03 PM 6/7/2005, Greg Williams wrote: >Naah. Paratrooper. At 08:30 AM 6/8/2005, Paul Schreiner wrote: >That's so she can hit the ground running... > >Be afraid. Be very afraid. > >And proud. Congratulations! ------------------------------ Message-ID: <58f67b0f050608085335ca7aa8 [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:53:50 -0400 From: Michael Powers Reply-To: Michael Powers Subject: Re: Rigging Question "Dana Taylor" writes: Subject: Rigging Question << .... production of "Les Mis", the scenic designer/director indicated that he wants Javert to step/leap off the bridge and be suspended in mid-air. during the character's suicide. The character would then be lowered to the deck 8 feet below................... >> Dana, If the effect is to be done as you've described it, yes, as others have said, get the pros to do it or don't do it. OR......!!!!!!! Figure out how to do it so the effect "seems" the same but is accomplished in a safe manner. First figure out what the director wants. In this case fairly simple, the effect of a long plunge after jumping from the bridge. Now figure out how to simulate that event. One way I have seen this done was to have two or three gobo rotaters aimed down, turning at slightly different speeds with slightly different centers, and creating a swirling vortex beneath the bridge.=20 If you are using a turntable, having it revolve at high speed at the same time will increase the effect, especially after J. hits the deck although it should go to black rather swiftly after that. He should hit as close to the center as possible. The next part of the effect does require some good rigging in re: the bridge. During the first part of the scene, the bridge is 8 or 10 feet above the stage but in the lead up to the leap, the bridge is isolated in light (lots of side light) with the vortex below. during this time the bridge is slowly lowered so that it is only 10" to 12" high at the moment of the leap. Then the bridge is flown out as rapidly as possible while J. does a flailing "fall" to water below. The first time I saw this, I knew the gimmick and it still looked like he fell 100' and disappeared into the vortex as it went black. Perhaps something like this would work for you???? Hope this helps. Michael Michael Powers 413-863-4376 home 413-522-3036 cell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 11:33:44 -0500 From: "Frank E. Merrill" Reply-To: "Frank E. Merrill" Message-ID: <268191623.20050608113344 [at] tcon.net> Subject: Re: Stubborn carriage bolts In-Reply-To: References: Howdy ! Wednesday, June 8, 2005, Eric Rouse wrote: > the nuts are seized up on the bolts and the head has no gripping > power. It just spins and spins and spins. Last time this happened to me I made a "wrench" out of what had previously been a garden weeding tool with a forked tip. I cut out the fork to present a square wrench-like end to the square shank just below the head, and then worked the thing under the head of the carriage bolt. A partner-in-crime turned the tee nut to rotate the carriage bolt until the "wrench" grabbed, and then it was easy. Yes, it chews up the wood. No, that wasn't an issue on my project. I like Carla's idea of a clamp to compress the wood and expose the head. Next time this arises (and it surely will) I'll use a wooden handscrew clamp and the aforesaid Frankenstein wrench. Best regards, Frank E. Merrill MERRILL STAGE EQUIPMENT Indianapolis Established 1946 www.merrillstage.com mailto:Lamplighter [at] tcon.net ------------------------------ From: "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" Subject: RE: Pipe grid material Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:36:32 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not in my extensive experience. A bad idea, in my opinion. Doom -- Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson, Risk International & Associates, Inc. - www.riskit.com Latest workshops for Educational and Entertainment Industry Performing Arts Personnel (Riggers, and Public Assembly and Educational Technicians) www.riskit.com/workshops International Secondary Education Theater Safety Association (ISETSA) - www.isetsa.org -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of James Feinberg Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:01 PM To: Stagecraft Subject: Pipe grid material For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Wonder of wonders, our Theatre Arts program is about to get a new black box classroom theatre. The contractor took a look at the pipe grid we have in another space and said, "Oh, it's sprinkler pipe." He plans to install sprinkler pipe (which he says is Schedule 40) and "red head" it into the concrete ceiling. I don't have any reason not to trust him, but I'm looking for a second opinion that this will indeed work for us as a pipe grid from which to hang lights and scenery. Can anyone reassure me? many thanks, --James Feinberg University of San Diego ------------------------------ From: "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" Subject: RE: Pipe grid material Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:37:24 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And I can count them on one finger. Doom -- Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson, Risk International & Associates, Inc. - www.riskit.com Latest workshops for Educational and Entertainment Industry Performing Arts Personnel (Riggers, and Public Assembly and Educational Technicians) www.riskit.com/workshops International Secondary Education Theater Safety Association (ISETSA) - www.isetsa.org -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Bill Sapsis Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:17 PM To: Stagecraft Subject: Re: Pipe grid material For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Beware. Ye have wandered into the land of darkness and confusion. Few who enter ever see the light of day again. The pipe you want is 1.5" ID (nom.) sch. 40 steel pipe. Accept no substitutes. Do not let the contractor join pipes (to make runs longer than 21') with threaded couplings. Unless, of course, you want the pipes to break at the joints. He should join them with internal sleeves. The contractor may be using the term "red heads" as a generic name for masonry anchors, but it's also the name of a specific style of anchor. I would not recommend that style for supporting a pipe grid, especially when the anchor is used in tension. I would suggest a chemical type (epoxy) anchor similar to what Hilti makes. (I would use Hilti if I were you but I don't want to get into a brand name argument) And what is he using for connecting two pipes that cross each other? Does he know that he should support the bottom pipes with the suspension device? How is he connecting the pipe grid to the anchor? Threaded rod, maybe, like they usually do? Another bad idea. And the list goes on and on. Yes, I know you trust your contractor. But the number of grids I have seen put in correctly by contractors I can count on one hand. The number of poorly installed grids, even by well meaning but inexperienced contractors, is too numerous to count. Be vewy, vewy, cawfull when hunting wabbits and installing pipe gwids. Zat help? Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Please support the Long Reach Long Riders on their 2nd annual benefit ride http://sapsis-rigging.com/LRLR.html on 5/31/05 3:00 PM, James Feinberg at feinberg [at] sandiego.edu wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Wonder of wonders, our Theatre Arts program is about to get a new black > box classroom theatre. The contractor took a look at the pipe grid we > have in another space and said, "Oh, it's sprinkler pipe." He plans to > install sprinkler pipe (which he says is Schedule 40) and "red head" it > into the concrete ceiling. > > I don't have any reason not to trust him, but I'm looking for a second > opinion that this will indeed work for us as a pipe grid from which to > hang lights and scenery. Can anyone reassure me? > > many thanks, > --James Feinberg > University of San Diego > ------------------------------ From: "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" Cc: peter [at] scheuconsulting.com Subject: RE: Pipe grid material Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:39:02 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Listen to Peter, he has it right. doom -- Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson, Risk International & Associates, Inc. - www.riskit.com Latest workshops for Educational and Entertainment Industry Performing Arts Personnel (Riggers, and Public Assembly and Educational Technicians) www.riskit.com/workshops International Secondary Education Theater Safety Association (ISETSA) - www.isetsa.org -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Scheu Consulting Services Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:15 PM To: Stagecraft Subject: Re: Pipe grid material For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- James Feinberg wrote: >I don't have any reason not to trust him, but I'm looking for a second >opinion that this will indeed work for us as a pipe grid from which to >hang lights and scenery. Can anyone reassure me? 1 1/2" schedule 40 pipe will work best. Each hanging point should be designed for 500 lb of load. Hanging points should be rigid (i.e. min grade 30 threaded rod) and not be spaced any greater than 10'-0" in any direction. The best way to accomplish this is to arrange the pipes in a 4' x 4' grid. How your contractor attaches to the ceiling/roof may be left to him, but a structural engineer should sign off on the design. Also remember to have the ends of the pipes (every other on or so) attached to the wall(s) to stop the grid from swaying. Cross grid connectors can be found though you local rigging dealer. I've been told to avoid "Cheesebroughs" as they may not be load rated. Good luck. Peter Scheu Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. www.scheuconsulting.com ------------------------------ From: "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" Subject: RE: Pipe grid material Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:43:24 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Be wary of threaded rod it is not for that weight, unless you have a structural engineer, Nolan, check it out. Threaded rod can be bent so easily and we have found in our inspections of grids, etc. that it is damaged and overweighted in many theatre applications. doom -- Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson, Risk International & Associates, Inc. - www.riskit.com Latest workshops for Educational and Entertainment Industry Performing Arts Personnel (Riggers, and Public Assembly and Educational Technicians) www.riskit.com/workshops International Secondary Education Theater Safety Association (ISETSA) - www.isetsa.org -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of James Feinberg Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:40 PM To: Stagecraft Subject: Re: Pipe grid material For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Thanks to all for your speedy and insightful replies! Because this is part of a larger building renovation, the work is being done by the University's general contractor, not theatre specialists. So I am trying to be very careful to ask the right questions and watch out for the right things. I believe they are planning to use epoxy with the anchors, but I will confirm. And ensure that sleeves are used at joints instead of couplers (which Jay Glerum taught me are called "thread protectors" in the pipe industry). But what's wrong with using threaded rod to connect the grid to the anchors? Assuming it is rated and has a sufficient Working Load Limit, that is. thanks again, --James Feinberg University of San Diego On Tuesday, May 31, 2005, at 12:16 PM, Bill Sapsis wrote: > > > And what is he using for connecting two pipes that cross each other? > Does he > know that he should support the bottom pipes with the suspension > device? > How is he connecting the pipe grid to the anchor? Threaded rod, > maybe, like > they usually do? Another bad idea. > > And the list goes on and on. > > Yes, I know you trust your contractor. But the number of grids I have > seen > put in correctly by contractors I can count on one hand. The number of > poorly installed grids, even by well meaning but inexperienced > contractors, > is too numerous to count. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050608102101.029cd198 [at] 192.168.0.13> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:24:14 -0700 From: Jerry Durand Subject: copyright As a joke, someone on a pyro list just suggested using John Cage's 4'33" piece for background music for a show and even gave a link to a "recording" of the piece. A thought just hit me (they do that), since Cage actually performed the piece and it's appeared with his recordings....is it copyrighted? Does that mean any length version of his piece is also copyrighted? At least nobody has ever complained that it was played too loud. :) ---------- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: <74.556ecb98.2fd886cd [at] aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:37:17 EDT Subject: Re: copyright - form 4:33 John Cage In a message dated 6/8/05 1:24:47 PM, jdurand [at] interstellar.com writes: << As a joke, someone on a pyro list just suggested using John Cage's 4'33" piece for background music for a show and even gave a link to a "recording" of the piece. A thought just hit me (they do that), since Cage actually performed the piece and it's appeared with his recordings....is it copyrighted? Does that mean any length version of his piece is also copyrighted? At least nobody has ever complained that it was played too loud. :) >> It's certainly copyrighted, , but if it wasn't 4:33 seconds long, , and billed it as John Cage's 4:33 you would have had to get permission to change the manner in which it was being performed I would imagine, , for more info http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/4%2733%22 I have to say that a Music Professor of mine, , in Form and Orchestration class, , played a recording of a live performance of 4:33 and asked the class to analyze it. We listened, , and laughed a bit and basically came up with NOTHING, we were so wrong he said, , and made us listen again still we as a whole came up with nothing then HE analyzed it and told us it was SONATA ALLEGRO form we were amazed to listen as he played the recording again, , and used the audience responses, applause on the performers entrance, tittering and laughter at the silence, the silence of boredom after the initial surprise of the piece was over, applause on the performers exit and then "we got it" very best, Keith Arsenault IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida 813 831 3465 Mr. Arsenault's Office 813 205 0893 Mr. Arsenault's Cellular www.iaeginc.com www.circusnexus.org ------------------------------ From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: <15a.52587d52.2fd8875e [at] aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 13:39:42 EDT Subject: Re: copyright - form 4:33 John Cage more info actually, , according to the web site I referenced in the previous post....... The length of 4'33" is in fact not designated by its score. The instructions for the work indicate that it consists of three movements, for each of which the only instruction is "tacet", indicating silence on the part of the performer or performers. The title of the piece in each performance is determined by the length of silence chosen. Cage chose the length of the famous first premiere performance by chance methods, and later joked that it just as easily could have been any other length. very best, Keith Arsenault IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida 813 831 3465 Mr. Arsenault's Office 813 205 0893 Mr. Arsenault's Cellular www.iaeginc.com www.circusnexus.org ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050608104229.054df6a0 [at] 192.168.0.13> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:43:47 -0700 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: copyright - form 4:33 John Cage more info In-Reply-To: References: At 10:39 AM 6/8/2005, you wrote: >The length of 4'33" is in fact not designated by its score. The instructions >for the work indicate that it consists of three movements, for each of which >the only instruction is "tacet", indicating silence on the part of the >performer or performers. The title of the piece in each performance is >determined by >the length of silence chosen. Cage chose the length of the famous first >premiere performance by chance methods, and later joked that it just as >easily could >have been any other length. So, for every "moment of silence" you have to send a royalty check to him. :) Does it count if the sound system dies? Would that be an unsound system? ---------- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:46:26 GMT Subject: Re: copyright Message-Id: <20050608.104633.2087.13951 [at] webmail04.lax.untd.com> Dear Jerry, Not the 'music', or lack thereof. For a work to be copyrighted, it must be "fixed in a tangible medium". This has been expanded a bit to allow choreography to be transcribed into Benesh Notation or Labonotation, for example, and the transcription, when fixed in a tangible medium, is sufficient to to allow copyright protection to cover the underlying choreography. As Californians, our art works enjoy additional protection not available in other states (as you know, California is a HIGHLY regulated state) in the form of the California Resale Royalties Act, which could cover one of YOUR devices that you sold and was still installed in a shopping center when the shopping center was sold. /s/ Richard A thought just hit me (they do that), since Cage actually performed the piece and it's appeared with his recordings....is it copyrighted? Does that mean any length version of his piece is also copyrighted? Jerry Durand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:50:55 +0100 (BST) From: Charlie Richmond Subject: Re: copyright In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: There's a lot of stuff on this -- been discussed lots over the years ;-) http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=john+cage+4%2733%22&meta= 38,200 pages for ya.. ;-) Charlie On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, Jerry Durand wrote: > As a joke, someone on a pyro list just suggested using John Cage's 4'33" > piece for background music for a show and even gave a link to a "recording" > of the piece. > > A thought just hit me (they do that), since Cage actually performed the piece > and it's appeared with his recordings....is it copyrighted? Does that mean > any length version of his piece is also copyrighted? > > At least nobody has ever complained that it was played too loud. :) ------------------------------ Message-ID: <52677.204.244.226.96.1118253176.squirrel [at] 204.244.226.96> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: copyright From: "Tom Heemskerk" > > Dear Jerry, > Not the 'music', or lack thereof. For a work to be copyrighted, it must be > "fixed in a tangible medium". > So, how about if it's published on paper in conventional music notation? If so, I'm up for that copyist job! th ------------------------------ Message-ID: <52688.204.244.226.96.1118253411.squirrel [at] 204.244.226.96> In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 10:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: copyright From: "Tom Heemskerk" > >> As a joke, someone on a pyro list just suggested using John Cage's 4'33" >> piece for background music for a show and even gave a link to a >> "recording" >> of the piece. > Reminds me of a moment in the movie "FM", where the wizened old DJ rescues the newcomer from broadcasting dead air by pretending it was the latest single from Marcel Marceau. Then he looks to the young guy and says, "I can only do that once..." ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 18:03:18 GMT Subject: Re: copyright Message-Id: <20050608.110418.2087.14247 [at] webmail04.lax.untd.com> Close, but no cigar. /s/ Richard So, how about if it's published on paper in conventional music notation? If so, I'm up for that copyist job! th ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050608114331.01709120 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 11:43:31 From: CB Subject: hearing loss >I had my hearing tested at the request of my wife. The hearing technician told >me that the loss is in the range of the female voice! How convenient for >me! Frustrating for my wife! Single exposures to really loud sounds rarely contribute to losses as much as constant exposure to loud-ish sounds, and losses tend to occur in the frequencies corresponding to the exposure. How long have you been married? Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20050608195529.15102.qmail [at] web33109.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 12:55:29 -0700 (PDT) From: June Abernathy Subject: Re: Rigging question Is it worth mentioning that on Broadway (and on tour, in London, etc.), Javert doesn't fly? The bridge is a flying piece, and for his suicide, it comes in to land on deck, and he steps over the railing during the course of his song, clinging to the DS side, and finally "jumps" off to the floor DS of the piece and throws his arms up over his head. When the SM can see that he is clear, they cue the rail to fly the bridge out very very quickly, and once it is up, the turntable spins and swirly lights make a whirlpool on the floor as he falls to his knees and then down into a little ball on the floor before rolling himself offstage as the turntable gets him US and into the dark. It can still be dangerous, of course. You have to make sure he is taught to make one big clear move to get off the bridge, and that he is well and truly clear before you call the cue to whip the bridge out. And it does help the effect if you take it out very quickly. If you are using a turntable, it's also very important to make sure the bridge is off the deck before the turntable turns, so it doesn't rack back and forth in the air. But it beats flying the actor, in at least MHO. If it was good enough for Trevor Nunn . . . June Abernathy IATSE #321 (Tampa, FL) FOH Electrician The Lion King National Tour (Gazelle) __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" Cc: mptecdir [at] gmail.com ('Michael Powers') Subject: RE: Rigging Question Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:09:22 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not a great idea. If this is to be done the professionals in this, stunt people, flying people, etc should be notified, hired, insured, etc. try Foy Inventerprises, they may have a solution. doom -- Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson, Risk International & Associates, Inc. - www.riskit.com Latest workshops for Educational and Entertainment Industry Performing Arts Personnel (Riggers, and Public Assembly and Educational Technicians) www.riskit.com/workshops International Secondary Education Theater Safety Association (ISETSA) - www.isetsa.org -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Michael Powers Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 9:54 AM To: Stagecraft Subject: Re: Rigging Question For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- "Dana Taylor" writes: Subject: Rigging Question << .... production of "Les Mis", the scenic designer/director indicated that he wants Javert to step/leap off the bridge and be suspended in mid-air. during the character's suicide. The character would then be lowered to the deck 8 feet below................... >> Dana, If the effect is to be done as you've described it, yes, as others have said, get the pros to do it or don't do it. OR......!!!!!!! Figure out how to do it so the effect "seems" the same but is accomplished in a safe manner. First figure out what the director wants. In this case fairly simple, the effect of a long plunge after jumping from the bridge. Now figure out how to simulate that event. One way I have seen this done was to have two or three gobo rotaters aimed down, turning at slightly different speeds with slightly different centers, and creating a swirling vortex beneath the bridge. If you are using a turntable, having it revolve at high speed at the same time will increase the effect, especially after J. hits the deck although it should go to black rather swiftly after that. He should hit as close to the center as possible. The next part of the effect does require some good rigging in re: the bridge. During the first part of the scene, the bridge is 8 or 10 feet above the stage but in the lead up to the leap, the bridge is isolated in light (lots of side light) with the vortex below. during this time the bridge is slowly lowered so that it is only 10" to 12" high at the moment of the leap. Then the bridge is flown out as rapidly as possible while J. does a flailing "fall" to water below. The first time I saw this, I knew the gimmick and it still looked like he fell 100' and disappeared into the vortex as it went black. Perhaps something like this would work for you???? Hope this helps. Michael Michael Powers 413-863-4376 home 413-522-3036 cell ------------------------------ From: "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" Cc: drkrajec [at] stritch.edu Subject: RE: hearing loss Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:53:41 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A recommendation I make for all theater people, all of them, a yearly hearing check. It is a precious commodity. doom -- Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson, Risk International & Associates, Inc. - www.riskit.com Latest workshops for Educational and Entertainment Industry Performing Arts Personnel (Riggers, and Public Assembly and Educational Technicians) www.riskit.com/workshops International Secondary Education Theater Safety Association (ISETSA) - www.isetsa.org -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of David R. Krajec Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 10:33 AM To: Stagecraft Subject: hearing loss For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- A word about that... I had my hearing tested at the request of my wife. They confirmed what I already knew. Five percent hearing loss in my left ear (probably a result of having my head next to a speaker under a stage during a sound check by one of the Van Halen guitar players - ouch! "Oh, sorry, dude!") and 10 percent loss in my right ear (a direct result of firing a Colt Walker next to my head during a show - ouch and stupid!). The hearing technician told me that the loss is in the range of the female voice! How convenient for me! Frustrating for my wife! Working a rock concert once, I was running truss spot. I asked for some hearing protection (rollup, spongy, in-the-ear-canal kind). The stage manager said that I would never hear my cues. I told him that as soon as they opened the mic to give me a cue, I'm going to get all that sound jammed into my ear, and after a half hour of that, I wouldn't be able to hear anything. He agreed, I got the hearing protection. My cues were spot on - no pun intended. David K. ------------------------------ From: "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" Cc: peter [at] scheuconsulting.com Subject: RE: Rigging Question Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 14:55:19 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In my opinion ..... not for high schools, no matter how sophisticated .... professionals may help, but it is very daring and the liability exposure is great. doom -- Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson, Risk International & Associates, Inc. - www.riskit.com Latest workshops for Educational and Entertainment Industry Performing Arts Personnel (Riggers, and Public Assembly and Educational Technicians) www.riskit.com/workshops International Secondary Education Theater Safety Association (ISETSA) - www.isetsa.org -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Scheu Consulting Services Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 9:18 AM To: Stagecraft Subject: Re: Rigging Question For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Steve Litterst wrote: >Follow your gut. This is an effect that can be done safely, with the >appropriate experience and equipment. If you, as the lead technician, >don't feel comfortable, then you shouldn't allow yourself to >be pushed into it. > >I'd suggest you get in touch with the folks at Hall Flying FX, >Flying by Foy, and/or ZFX. Describe the effect and get a >price. Take that to the director Dana, I see from your original post that this may be a HS production (your domain is "msdmv.k12.in.us"). I can't even begin to stress how strongly I agree with Steve here. This is NOT something anyone at the HS level should even attempt by themselves. You MUST call in a professional (Steve gave you the best list). DO NOT compromise w/ the director. Either the professionals do it, or it gets cut. I'm not kidding when I say the performer's life is at stake!. Just my .02. Peter Scheu Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. www.scheuconsulting.com ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <25.6118ce41.2fd8b54f [at] aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 16:55:43 EDT Subject: Re: Rigging Question In a message dated 6/7/05 1:13:22 PM W. Europe Daylight Time, taylordw [at] msdmv.k12.in.us writes: << At a production meeting for a school production of "Les Mis", the scenic designer/director indicated that he wants Javert to step/leap off the bridge and be suspended in mid-air. during the character's suicide. The character would then be lowered to the deck 8 feet below. He did mention that he knew we needed to put the character in a safety harness but I believe the directors reach is exceeding his grasp. My question is, is this safe and if not, how could it be made safe. My gut reaction is that we don't have the appropriate equipment or experience to do this and are needlessly putting a kid at risk. >> By employing experts. There is really no other way. Your gut reaction is correct. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050608163455.01718df0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:34:55 From: CB Subject: Hey, >From: "Micah Farley" >Reply-To: "Micah Farley" >To: v010101 [at] cox.net >Cc: attagirl51 [at] cox.net, ael [at] cox.net, kennymc [at] cox.net, weideman [at] cox.net, tigger1989 [at] cox.net, psyd [at] cox.net >Subject: Hey, >Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 18:01:03 -0800 >X-Antivirus: AVG for E-mail 7.0.322 [267.6.5] > > > All Prescriptions On Sale Cialis................................79% Off > Viagra ..............................73% Off > Valium..............................83% Off > Xanax...............................77% Off > Soma...............................67% Off > Celebrex...............................77% Off > Phentermine...............................79% Off > Ambien............................69% Off Completemonoid Listing >andover Here > > protests in late 1979, apparently inspired by the widely > fuel you provide the better the performance will be, To get >off l1st good breakfast. There was a very strong and negative > the morning and slows down throughout the day it makes > would get more buffed than Dorian Yates in Alaska. What > or particular prosecutions on extremely narrow grounds. > the third or fourth read-through. Fourthly, it sucks to > with high energy content in the morning were eating less > specific meanings of all these flags were defined by > when it traded with Spain and Portugal. Other flags > intense emotion (see Appendix, Document 2). By the time > line to get a ship from one cruising area to another and > Evenings were for dancing into the wee hours, or sitting > sums them up this way, from the ship's point of view: "A No >virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: >7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.6.5 - Release Date: 6/7/2005 ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <29af140c67bc3df03da3bc5b4597765d [at] dejazzd.com> From: Greg Bierly Subject: Re: Hey, Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 19:30:10 -0400 Hey, back at you. Can you change the name of either your spam reporting address or stagecraft so they aren't next to each other. Or at least trim your post <> wink wink ;-) On Jun 8, 2005, at 4:34 PM, CB wrote: >> >> All Prescriptions On Sale >> Cialis................................79% Off >> Viagra ..............................73% Off Greg Bierly Technical Director Hempfield HS ------------------------------ From: "Tony Deeming" Subject: RE: Hey, Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:46:26 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Hummmm.... CB - Think you're 'doing it' again....!!! 8-))) -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net]On Behalf Of CB Sent: 08 June 2005 16:35 To: Stagecraft Subject: Hey, For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- >From: "Micah Farley" >Reply-To: "Micah Farley" >To: v010101 [at] cox.net ------------------------------ From: "Andy Leviss" Subject: RE: Hey, Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 17:18:58 -0400 Organization: Duck's Echo Sound Message-ID: <001101c56c6f$af57e570$a19afea9 [at] AndyLeviss> In-Reply-To: Tony D wrote, re: Chris inadvertently sending spam for Viagra, Xanax, and Ambien, among others: > Hummmm.... > CB - Think you're 'doing it' again....!!! No, if this list of products is to be believed, he's not only not doing it, but quite anxious about it to the point of losing sleep! --A -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.6 - Release Date: 6/8/2005 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:49:57 -0400 From: Patrick McCreary Subject: Re: Stubborn carriage bolts In-reply-to: Message-id: <6.2.0.14.1.20050608204725.01cb3ab8 [at] incoming.verizon.net> References: At 08:08 AM 6/8/2005, you wrote: I'd use an Easyout - you can get them at most any hardware store, better ones usually at auto-parts stores. For an explanation: http://www.crustyquinns.com/tech/easyout.html Patrick >Any ideas on how to remove the stubborn half a dozen or so bolts I can't >get out? I was thinking of using a sawzall with a metal blade to get >between the joint and cut the bolt in half. I figure this would cause the >least damage to the structure. > >Thanks for the help. The moving truck gets here tomorrow!! >-- >Eric Rouse >TD-University of SC, Columbia >Freelance Foyboy G. Patrick McCreary Ass't. Professor - Technical Director Department of Theater and Dance Indiana University of Pennsylvania Indiana, PA 15701 (Office) 724-357-2644 (Home) 724-349-4309 ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:14:21 -0400 From: Delbert Hall Reply-To: Delbert Hall Subject: Re: Rigging Question In-Reply-To: References: Hi Dana, Since I have designed and built scores of performer flying systems, and flown more than 1,000 performers in the past 23 years, I feel fairly qualified to discuss this subject. I have done the effect you described for many high school productions of LES MIZ. As flying effects go, this can be fairly simple effect to rig and operate. But, let me repeat what other have said, do not attempt to rig anything that is beyond your expertise. If you do not have the proper equipment or the skills to rig this effect properly, do not attempt it. Even a simple effect like this one can be very dangerous if not done properly. From what you said in your post, it does not sound as if you feel that you have the equipment and skills needed to safely rig this effect. I would NOT use a fall arrest harness for this effect. I would use a two-point seat harness for this effect, similar to the ones we use on WICKED on Broadway and on the national tour. The most dangerous aspect of the effect that you described is the fact the performer starts his flight above the the ground and is lowered to the stage. Problems are far more likely to show themselves at the beginning of a flight, and in your case, this is when the performer is high above the stage and most likely to take a dangerous fall. Therefore, I recommend that you contact someone who can rig it safely, or find another way to accomplish the effect. There are other benefits to having a professional flying effects company rig this effect for you. ZFX, the company that I work for, can provide you and your students with a one-day rigging seminar on how to safely operate your current rigging system, and show you tools and techniques that you can use to rig future productions. This seminar can be tailored to meet your specific needs, and the skill level of you and your students. Others on the list have already named several companies that have experience rigging performer flying effects. If you have any specific questions, please feel free to contact me privately at dhall [at] zfxflying.com. -Delbert=20 Delbert Hall Phone: 423-773-4255 On 6/7/05, Dana Taylor wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I am seeking the wisdom of the list in regard to a potentially dangerous = situation. >=20 > At a production meeting for a school production of "Les Mis", the scenic = designer/director indicated that he wants Javert to step/leap off the bridg= e and be suspended in mid-air. during the character's suicide. The characte= r would then be lowered to the deck 8 feet below. He did mention that he kn= ew we needed to put the character in a safety harness but I believe the dir= ectors reach is exceeding his grasp. >=20 > My question is, is this safe and if not, how could it be made safe. My gu= t reaction is that we don't have the appropriate equipment or experience to= do this and are needlessly putting a kid at risk. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Dana Taylor > Technical Theatre Instructor > MVHS >=20 > Dana W. Taylor > Mt. Vernon Sr. High School > 812.838.4356 > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42A7A58A.4040407 [at] fuse.net> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 22:12:26 -0400 From: Stuart Wheaton Subject: Re: Stubborn carriage bolts References: In-Reply-To: Kurt Pragman wrote: > Can you grind slots into the carriage bolts for your flathead screwdriver or > have they dug too far in? OR get the biggest diameter, but thinnest nut you can find that fits on the head of the carriage bolt, Weld it to the head of the carriage bolt through the hole. Grab with socket or c-wrench. Replace with all flat head machine screws so this won't happen again. Stainless or Bronze... Stuart ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1548.65.184.112.59.1118286160.squirrel [at] webmail.columbia.sc> In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Stubborn carriage bolts From: usctd [at] columbia.sc I just returned from the hardware store with those very items. I had been looking for them all afternoon. It just might work! Thanks for all the tips everybody! -- Eric Rouse TD-University of SC, Columbia Freelance Foyboy > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > At 08:08 AM 6/8/2005, you wrote: > > I'd use an Easyout - you can get them at most any hardware store, better > ones usually at auto-parts stores. > > For an explanation: > > http://www.crustyquinns.com/tech/easyout.html > > Patrick > > >>Any ideas on how to remove the stubborn half a dozen or so bolts I can't >>get out? I was thinking of using a sawzall with a metal blade to get >>between the joint and cut the bolt in half. I figure this would cause >> the >>least damage to the structure. >> >>Thanks for the help. The moving truck gets here tomorrow!! >>-- >>Eric Rouse >>TD-University of SC, Columbia >>Freelance Foyboy > > G. Patrick McCreary > Ass't. Professor - Technical Director > Department of Theater and Dance > Indiana University of Pennsylvania > Indiana, PA 15701 > (Office) 724-357-2644 > (Home) 724-349-4309 > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <1359.207.201.197.43.1118288460.squirrel [at] webmail.columbia.sc> In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 23:41:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? From: usctd [at] columbia.sc So I have a bit of a philosophical question. I admit I don't know the answer. And yes, I realize it's a can of feisty worms! When is it OK for someone who is not an expert to try this type of effect, or any type of flying effect for that matter? (I understand the ramifications of the word "try" but humor me here.) Folks on this list say "You need an expert!" Hey, I don't mind, it gets me an extra paycheck. But philosophicaly speaking, when do we say, hey, do this and it will work? Is it just about the liability? Considering how so many of us started doing this very type of work, it seems odd to me that we sometimes shut everyone else out of the circle. It's not magic. Is it about the money? Do we want the paycheck so badly, that we scare people into thinking that there is no way in hell they can possibly pull off that effect? Dont tell me these companies started because they just couldn't bear the thought of actors lives being in danger. What makes this so different than any of the other wacky things we do in theatre every day? This is just something up for discussion. I am not endorsing the notion, I am just interested in peoples thoughts on this. Eric Rouse TD-University of SC, Columbia Freelance Foyboy ------------------------------ Message-ID: <58f67b0f05060821026e114c4c [at] mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 00:02:53 -0400 From: Michael Powers Reply-To: Michael Powers Cc: doomster [at] worldnet.att.net (Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson) Subject: Re: Rigging Question In-Reply-To: <42a75080.3e04ed00.1452.ffffa851SMTPIN_ADDED [at] mx.gmail.com> References: <42a75080.3e04ed00.1452.ffffa851SMTPIN_ADDED [at] mx.gmail.com> On 6/8/05, Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson wrote: > Not a great idea. If this is to be done the professionals .......... And quoting myself:=20 >......One way I have seen this done .......... >=20 >...... Perhaps something like this would work for you?... Randy,=20 You missed my point. I wasn't giving instructions on "How To", I was describing a way that I have seen to point out there are safe ways to achieve the effect. Like the Peter Pan someone described a couple of years back, Ninja clad lifters doing ballet lifts instead of flying by wire, my drift was to find an alternative method that still met the director's vision. Can an actor get hurt "leaping" off a 12" high step? Of course he can. He can also get hurt walking down a standard staircase. Does this mean we should eliminate stair cases from the stage? Of course not! The leap is one thing, low level, low impact, no rigging, no harness,etc. If a one foot leap can't be safely achieved, then we have far larger problems. The bridge may or may not be another issue. Dana's original post showed a good grasp of what they can and can not do safely. From the post, I feel that Dana will be a good judge of whether or not rigging the bridge to fly that way is within their capabilities. If the answer is "NO" then following my suggestion maybe they will simply build the bridge as a wagon and pull it up stage with a scrim or full stage black falling in front of it to complete the illusion. Again, my point was not to get too caught up in the director's specific directions i.e. 8' high/harness/ suspended actor etc. But to find out what the director really wanted to achieve, i.e. J. jumping into a bottomless whirling void, and then thinking of a safe, economical, practical, visually exciting way to get the same end result for the audience. --=20 Michael Michael Powers 413-863-4376 home 413-522-3036 cell ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 22:35:36 -0700 From: Mat Goebel Reply-To: Mat Goebel Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? In-Reply-To: References:

I think it's more of a case of "been there, done that, have the scars to prove it." Just because someone started there or has done it before doesn't mean it was/is a good idea then or now. If someone is willing to hear the voice of experience, they may save themselves (and others) much harm/grief/pain/suffering/etc. On 6/8/05, usctd [at] columbia.sc wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > When is it OK for someone who is not an expert to try this type of effect= , > or any type of flying effect for that matter? (I understand the > ramifications of the word "try" but humor me here.) Folks on this list > say "You need an expert!" Hey, I don't mind, it gets me an extra > paycheck. But philosophicaly speaking, when do we say, hey, do this and > it will work? >=20 > Is it just about the liability? >=20 > Considering how so many of us started doing this very type of work, it > seems odd to me that we sometimes shut everyone else out of the circle. > It's not magic. Is it about the money? Do we want the paycheck so badly= , > that we scare people into thinking that there is no way in hell they can > possibly pull off that effect? Dont tell me these companies started > because they just couldn't bear the thought of actors lives being in > danger. --=20 Mat Goebel Audio Engineer / Sound Designer www.matgoebel.com Mobile: 510.693.1448 ------------------------------ From: "Tony Deeming" Subject: RE: Rigging Question/When is it safe? Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 10:04:19 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: -----Original Message from Eric----- So I have a bit of a philosophical question. I admit I don't know the answer. And yes, I realize it's a can of feisty worms! When is it OK for someone who is not an expert to try this type of effect, or any type of flying effect for that matter? (I understand the ramifications of the word "try" but humor me here.) Folks on this list say "You need an expert!" Hey, I don't mind, it gets me an extra paycheck. But philosophicaly speaking, when do we say, hey, do this and it will work? Is it just about the liability? Considering how so many of us started doing this very type of work, it seems odd to me that we sometimes shut everyone else out of the circle. It's not magic. Is it about the money? Do we want the paycheck so badly, that we scare people into thinking that there is no way in hell they can possibly pull off that effect? Dont tell me these companies started because they just couldn't bear the thought of actors lives being in danger. What makes this so different than any of the other wacky things we do in theatre every day? This is just something up for discussion. I am not endorsing the notion, I am just interested in peoples thoughts on this. Eric Rouse From a right-pond perspective, I'd have to say the probability is the CYA syndrome in this ever-increasing litigation culture we now live in. The UK is still behind the US in this respect BUT we seem to be catching up fast! It would appear that wherever the safety of an individual is in question, then the short answer to any query is 'get the right people in to do it' purely because if there then IS a problem, then those 'right people' will have insurance against such problems and legal backup to support them. (They also SHOULD be in a position to NOT allow such problems to ensue, of course!). If anyone as an amateur, no matter how experienced or intelligent, attempts a potentially unsafe task and fails, causing actual bodily harm etc, then the likelihood is that they'll find the world falling out of their bottom! However, as with everything, the answer isn't always as simple as black & white. Where do you draw the line between what might be acceptable danger and unacceptable. What degree of risk will you, as a person, allow before either spending the potentially big bucks on an effect or ditching it as impractical? Only you can decide that, but whichever way you go, you need to be sure of your position these days! I know that in my 25 + years in the amateur field, I've perhaps pushed the envelope a little on the odd occasion, something in my more mature years I may have thought differently about these days. BUT whatever I've done, I've always looked at the safety aspects first and foremost, weighing up the pros & cons carefully. And I have ditched or plain refused to contemplate many requests from directors over the years simply on the basis that we don't have the facilities or the expertise to carry them off. One that springs to mind immediately is that of a dance school who saw the flying silk performers wanted to 'give that a try'. After I picked myself up off the floor and wiped the tears of laughter off my face I realised they WERE serious! But after I took the time to explain that a 17 feet high grid was far from sufficient, plus the fact that these performers spend years learning the trade. Needless to say they dropped the idea!! Anyway - that make sense??? Ynot ------------------------------ Message-ID: <11b501c56cd3$a0d59ba0$6401a8c0 [at] chris> From: "Chris Warner" References:

Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 02:14:23 -0700 My answer is that most especially the professional rigging companies, and those like delbert from ZFX are trying to avoid giving advice, that could ultimately come back and bite them as a law suite. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Stagecraft" Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 8:41 PM Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? > When is it OK for someone who is not an expert to try this type of effect, > or any type of flying effect for that matter? (I understand the > ramifications of the word "try" but humor me here.) Folks on this list > say "You need an expert!" Hey, I don't mind, it gets me an extra > paycheck. But philosophicaly speaking, when do we say, hey, do this and > it will work? > > Is it just about the liability? > > Eric Rouse > TD-University of SC, Columbia > Freelance Foyboy -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.6 - Release Date: 6/8/2005 ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #422 *****************************