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X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 23012689; Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:01:20 -0700 X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #424 Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 03:01:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on prxy.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, DRUGS_ERECTILE,DRUGS_PAIN autolearn=ham version=3.0.3 X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4f2 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #424 1. Sound Levels? by Cosmo Catalano 2. Re: Sound Levels? by Bill Sapsis 3. Re: Sound Levels? by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 4. Re: Sound Levels? by Bruce Purdy 5. Re: Sound Levels? by IAEG [at] aol.com 6. Re: Sound Levels? by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 7. Re: Sound Levels? FORD AMPHITHEATRE noise issues by IAEG [at] aol.com 8. Re: [Fwd: Re: AOL workaround] by StevevETTrn [at] aol.com 9. Re: When is it safe? It wasn't always this way....! by "Tony Deeming" 10. hearing by "David R. Krajec" 11. flying effect for Les Miz by "David R. Krajec" 12. Re: hearing by "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" 13. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by Stephen Litterst 14. Re: Stubborn carriage bolts by Chuck Mitchell 15. Re: Sound Levels? by Dale Farmer 16. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by Delbert Hall 17. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by Jerry Durand 18. what is safe? by b Ricie 19. Re: Copyright of silence by "Bryan H. Ackler" 20. Re: what is safe? by Steve Larson 21. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by Howard Ires 22. Re: what is safe? by "Jon Ares" 23. Re: Copyright of silence by MissWisc [at] aol.com 24. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by "Paul Schreiner" 25. Re: flying effect for Les Miz by MissWisc [at] aol.com 26. Re: flying effect for Les Miz by "Scheu Consulting Services" 27. High school teachers was: flying effect for Les Miz by Dale Farmer 28. Re: High school teachers was: flying effect for Les Miz by Delbert Hall 29. Re: Copyright of silence by CB 30. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by CB 31. Mike (was:Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe?) by CB 32. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by CB 33. Re: Hey, by CB 34. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by Howard Ires 35. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by IAEG [at] aol.com 36. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by Delbert Hall 37. Re: Sound Levels? by Mike Voytko 38. Re: Erector ert by "Paul Guncheon" 39. Re: Stairs by "Paul Guncheon" 40. Re: Stairs by Jerry Durand 41. more vector works help by ken frederickson 42. Re: flying effect for Les Miz by MissWisc [at] aol.com 43. Re: Sound Levels? by Jason Romney 44. Re: Sound Levels? by Jerry Durand 45. Re: more vector works help by "C. Andrew Dunning" 46. Re: High school teachers was: flying effect for Les Miz by Greg Bierly 47. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 48. Re: Sound Levels? by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 49. Re: Sound Levels? by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 50. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 51. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by Scott Parker 52. Re: High school teachers was: flying effect for Les Miz by Greg Williams 53. Re: High school teachers was: flying effect for Les Miz by Delbert Hall 54. Re: Sound Levels? by Dale Farmer 55. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by "ladesigners [at] juno.com" 56. Re: Sound Levels? by Jason Romney 57. Re: Stubborn carriage bolts by Stuart Wheaton 58. Re: Sound Levels? by Stuart Wheaton 59. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by Stuart Wheaton 60. Re: Sound Levels? by "Bill Nelson" 61. Re: High school teachers was: flying effect for Les Miz by "Simon Shuker" 62. Re: Sound Levels? FORD AMPHITHEATRE noise issues by Seth Richardson 63. More rigging Questions by J Burch *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:11:08 -0400 From: Cosmo Catalano Subject: Sound Levels? Message-id: <54886db4ef2cc7b79f9e54bb79334e20 [at] williams.edu> Folks, I'm putting together an info sheet for our facility. I'm aware that other venues have information regarding maximum sound levels allowable. We are an indoor venue, so our local noise ordinances is not applicable. OHSA regulations (1926.53) can be offered, they permit 115db for 15 min and refer to constant levels This seems pretty darn loud (to this old fart) for a theatre. Can anyone speak to what their venue permits and any action they have taken when it is exceeded? Specific info (db, what scale, location of measurement, etc) would be helpful. Thanks, Cosmo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:26:24 -0400 Subject: Re: Sound Levels? From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Huh? What did you say? I'm sorry, but I can't hear you. <> Bill S. (it's a Friday) www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Please support the Long Reach Long Riders on their 2nd annual benefit ride http://sapsis-rigging.com/LRLR.html on 6/10/05 8:11 AM, Cosmo Catalano at Cosmo.A.Catalano [at] williams.edu wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Folks, > I'm putting together an info sheet for our facility. I'm aware that > other venues have information regarding maximum sound levels allowable. > We are an indoor venue, so our local noise ordinances is not > applicable. OHSA regulations (1926.53) can be offered, they permit > 115db for 15 min and refer to constant levels This seems pretty darn > loud (to this old fart) for a theatre. Can anyone speak to what > their venue permits and any action they have taken when it is exceeded? > Specific info (db, what scale, location of measurement, etc) would be > helpful. > > Thanks, > > Cosmo > ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: Sound Levels? Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:31:41 -0400 Message-ID: <000001c56db8$5e6ed8e0$6801a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > OHSA regulations (1926.53) can be offered, they permit=20 > 115db for 15 min and refer to constant levels This seems=20 > pretty darn=20 > loud (to this old fart) for a theatre. Can anyone speak to what=20 > their venue permits and any action they have taken when it is=20 > exceeded?=20 We permitted 100 dB SPL for 5 minutes, measured at the back of the = house. If it was exceeded, we gave the show a reasonable amount of time to get = into compliance (most did). If they failed to comply, the show was stopped = (I think this happened maybe once in 12 years) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:32:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Sound Levels? From: Bruce Purdy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > Can anyone speak to what > their venue permits and any action they have taken when it is exceeded? > Specific info (db, what scale, location of measurement, etc) would be > helpful. Concert volume must not exceed 100 Db. (=8CA=B9 weighted average slow-response measured from the centre mix position.) Bruce --=20 Bruce Purdy Technical Director Smith Opera House ------------------------------ From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: <196.40d4a84a.2fdae59a [at] aol.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:46:18 EDT Subject: Re: Sound Levels? In a message dated 6/10/05 8:32:35 AM, stagecraft [at] jeffsalzberg.com writes: << We permitted 100 dB SPL for 5 minutes, measured at the back of the house. If it was exceeded, we gave the show a reasonable amount of time to get into compliance (most did). If they failed to comply, the show was stopped (I think this happened maybe once in 12 years) >> come on, , ya gotta tell us who that was! very best, Keith IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Subject: RE: Sound Levels? Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:53:11 -0400 Message-ID: <000101c56dbb$5f318540$6801a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > If it was exceeded, we gave the show a reasonable amount of=20 > time to get into compliance (most did). If they failed to=20 > comply, the show was stopped (I think this happened maybe=20 > once in 12 years) >> >=20 >=20 > come on, , ya gotta tell us who that was! Y'know, I really don't remember who the "artists" were (quotes used advisedly), and if I did, I'd feel ethically constrained to not say. I do remember who the presenter was; it was at the time the largest = concert production company in the world and every other company was forced to..er..keep pace with them. There were several times over the years when I had to invoke the = *threat* of shutting down; usually, the sight of me heading for the company switch brought home the fact that I was serious. ------------------------------ From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: <20a.2cb8192.2fdaeb4e [at] aol.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:10:38 EDT Subject: Re: Sound Levels? FORD AMPHITHEATRE noise issues In a message dated 6/10/05 8:54:00 AM, stagecraft [at] jeffsalzberg.com writes: << I do remember who the presenter was; it was at the time the largest concert production company in the world and every other company was forced to..er..keep pace with them. >> hummmmm, , , , I am just not clear on who you could be referring to ? perhaps a little sfx would entertain and distract for a while and open up a few channels of memory? As many of you may or may not know, , the FORD AMPHITHEATRE ( i e Clear Channel Entertainment ) here in Tampa is having a battle with the Hillsborough County EPC which monitors noise regulations, Seems that have been a ton of complaints from neigborhoods as far as three miles away about the high volume levels on many ( not all ) of the shows Well there is a front page article in todays ST PETE TIMES that I think many of you will find interesting it outlines how the EPC approved the designs of the building in the early going of the process but that in fact the facility was not built at ALL like the designs approved ( why it has taken them so long to figure this out I don't know ) here's the url for the article http://www.sptimes.com/2005/06/10/Tampabay/Noise_complaints_at_t.shtml or just www.sptimes.com very best, Keith Arsenault IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida ------------------------------ From: StevevETTrn [at] aol.com Message-ID: <68.576ff8f9.2fdaedf3 [at] aol.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:21:55 EDT Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: AOL workaround] In a message dated 6/6/2005 FrankWood95 [at] aol.com writes: >To reply to mail, you would have to open the message, select the parts to be replied to....< On AOL 9.0 Optimized SE, I just replied here by highlighting the portions of the original message that were pertinent (clipping the post) and then selecting the "Reply" button. At that point, I right clicked, in the message area, and selected the "Compose as plain text" option in the dialog box. Then typed the reply and sent. Simple. Caveat: If you compose off-line, as I often do, you must re-select the plain text option before sending the message. Actually, I composed this reply 3 days ago but being at the beach for a vacation am just now going back online to check mail and send. SteveV Orl, Fl ------------------------------ From: "Tony Deeming" Subject: RE: When is it safe? It wasn't always this way....! Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:46:01 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: FOUND IT!! Been searching for this awhile, and despite it not being new, it remains an item that I wholeheartedly believe rings very true, especially in the light of this current thread! =============================================== People over 35 should be dead. Here's why! According to today's regulators and bureaucrats, those of us who were kids in the 40s, 50s, 60s, or even maybe the early 70s probably shouldn't have survived. Our baby cribs were covered with bright coloured lead-based paint. We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets, and when we rode our bikes, we had no helmets. (Not to mention the risks we took hitchhiking.) As children, we would ride in cars with no seatbelts or air bags. Riding in the back of a pickup truck on a warm day was always a special treat. We drank water from the garden hose and not from a bottle. We ate cupcakes, bread and butter, and drank soda pop with sugar in it, but we were never overweight because we were always outside playing. We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle, and no one actually died from this. We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then rode down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem. We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the street lights came on. No one was able to reach us all day. No Mobile Phones! We did not have Playstations, Nintendo 64, X-Boxes, no video games at all, no 99 channels on cable, video tape movies, surround sound, personal mobile phones, personal computers, or Internet chat rooms. We had friends! We went outside and found them. We played dodge ball, and sometimes, the ball would really hurt. We fell out of trees, got cut and broke bones and teeth, and there were no lawsuits from these accidents. They were accidents. No one was to blame but us. We had fights and punched each other and got black and blue and learned to get over it. We made up games with sticks and tennis balls and ate worms, and although we were told it would happen, we did not put out very many eyes, nor did the worms live inside us forever. We rode bikes or walked to a friend's home and knocked on the door, or rang the bell or just walked in and talked to them. Local football teams had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment. Some students weren't as smart as others, so they failed a grade and were held back to repeat the same grade. Tests were not adjusted for any reason. Our actions were our own. Consequences were expected. The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke a law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law. This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers and problem solvers and inventors, ever. The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas. We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned how to deal with it all. And you're one of them! Congratulations! Please pass this on to others who have had the luck to grow up as kids, before lawyers and government regulated our lives, for our own good! People under 30 are WIMPS ! ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "David R. Krajec" Subject: hearing Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:29:10 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: That one time gun shot next to my head made my ear ring for a week. On the other hand, I've been married 16 years and the only ring from that is the one on my hand. The two events are unrelated, (he said, covering his be-hind!) David K. ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "David R. Krajec" Subject: flying effect for Les Miz Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:29:10 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Their are two different issues here. One issue is the effect itself. We all agree that it should be done by professional riggers with flying experience. The other issue is the venue, in this case a high school. There is no reason that a high school can't have an experienced professional rigger working at the school. The odds may be against it, but it can happen. The point is that we don't want someone inadvertently endangering the life of the actor for the sake of "THE SHOW". As I tell my students, no show is worth a human life. Let's be careful not to accidently demean the role of the high school theatre teacher. They are as much a professional as anyone else in the theatre. They just practice their profession in a different arena. Respectfully, David K. ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Jeffrey E. Salzberg" Cc: drkrajec [at] stritch.edu Subject: RE: hearing Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:33:25 -0400 Message-ID: <000201c56dc9$5f7da110$6801a8c0 [at] Dell> In-Reply-To: > On the other hand, I've been married 16 years and the > only ring from that is the one on my hand. So far. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:43:12 -0400 From: Stephen Litterst Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? Message-id: <42A9A700.2D6B08E2 [at] ithaca.edu> Organization: IC-Dept. of Theatre Arts References:

Delbert Hall wrote: > --------------------------------------------------- There must be a lot of people who think > that waviers of responsibility have some merit since I continually see > notices in hotels stating that they are not responsibility if anything > get stolen from my room, or if my car is vandelized while in their > parking lot, or if I drown in their pool. I bet you have seen these > too. It's taken me a few days but I recalled a situation where an Ivy League university was being sued for negligence and the New York Supreme Court dismissed the case based on the waiver signed by the plaintiff. The Appellate court upheld the dismissal saying, "The release further holds defendant harmless from liability from any negligence, including that related to plaintiff's supervised or unsupervised use of the wall. Given plaintiff's signature and initials on these documents, we conclude that dismissal [of the complaint] was proper." So, there are certainly instances where the waivers have been tested and found sound. This case was not related to the entertainment industry, admittedly. Steve Litterst -- Stephen C. Litterst Technical Supervisor Ithaca College Dept. of Theatre Arts 607/274-3947 slitterst [at] ithaca.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:00:44 -0500 From: Chuck Mitchell Subject: RE: Stubborn carriage bolts In-reply-to: Message-id: <000901c56dcd$2d477c30$0be25c90 [at] Chuck> We use hex bolts (Hex head cap screws), countersinking them into platforms so the bolts do not protrude into the facing or abutting platform. Then again, we don't use conventional wooden platforms a whole lot anymore... Chuck >I'm curious: what sort of fastening method do you suggest in place of >carriage bolts? Chuck Mitchell Scene Studio Supervisor University Theatre-University of Wisconsin Madison 608-263-3330 FAX 608-265-4075 ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42A9AC11.A2CAA420 [at] cybercom.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:04:49 -0400 From: Dale Farmer Organization: The fuzz in the back of the fridge. Subject: Re: Sound Levels? References: Cosmo Catalano wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Folks, > I'm putting together an info sheet for our facility. I'm aware that > other venues have information regarding maximum sound levels allowable. > We are an indoor venue, so our local noise ordinances is not > applicable. OHSA regulations (1926.53) can be offered, they permit > 115db for 15 min and refer to constant levels This seems pretty darn > loud (to this old fart) for a theatre. Can anyone speak to what > their venue permits and any action they have taken when it is exceeded? > Specific info (db, what scale, location of measurement, etc) would be > helpful. > > Thanks, > > Cosmo OSHA regulations are a good basis to start from in the US. After all, there are employees in the house for whom you have to stay in compliance. If loud noise levels at your facility have not been a problem in the institutional memory, why waste ink and paper setting limits? --Dale ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:39:01 -0400 From: Delbert Hall Reply-To: Delbert Hall Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? In-Reply-To: References:

Thanks Steve. It seems that waviers sometimes hold up in court and sometimes do not (i.e Jack Kevorkian) . A wavier certainly cannot hurt you and that may be the reason that ZFX uses them. -Delbert --=20 Delbert Hall ZFX Technical Flying Director Phone: 423-773-4255 On 6/10/05, Stephen Litterst wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > It's taken me a few days but I recalled a situation where an Ivy > League university was being sued for negligence and the New York > Supreme Court dismissed the case based on the waiver signed by the > plaintiff. The Appellate court upheld the dismissal saying, >=20 > "The release further holds defendant harmless from liability from any > negligence, including that related to plaintiff's supervised or > unsupervised use of the wall. Given plaintiff's signature and > initials on these documents, we conclude that dismissal [of the > complaint] was proper." >=20 > So, there are certainly instances where the waivers have been tested > and found sound. This case was not related to the entertainment > industry, admittedly. >=20 > Steve Litterst > -- > Stephen C. Litterst > Technical Supervisor > Ithaca College > Dept. of Theatre Arts > 607/274-3947 > slitterst [at] ithaca.edu >=20 --=20 Delbert Hall Phone: 423-773-4255 ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050610084319.0388fd70 [at] 192.168.0.13> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:44:10 -0700 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? In-Reply-To: References:

At 08:39 AM 6/10/2005, you wrote: >Thanks Steve. It seems that waviers sometimes hold up in court and >sometimes do not (i.e Jack Kevorkian) . A wavier certainly cannot >hurt you and that may be the reason that ZFX uses them. They may also make the injured person THINK they wouldn't win a case so they never contact a lawyer. ---------- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20050610154432.55602.qmail [at] web50608.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:44:32 -0700 (PDT) From: b Ricie Subject: what is safe? In-Reply-To: > > Still, there is a part of me that feels that a life with all possible risks removed is no life at all. In this, anti-bacterial/anti-do no do it because it is dirty or now bad for you, super safe don't drink from the fountain here have the bottled water, wash your hands or your gonna die world, I understand more and more young people are developing allergies and reactions to more and more every day things. I understand part of this phenomena to be that they were never exposed to, so never developed an immunity to said allergens. As a child, I drank from the hose, played in the dirt,the woods, the trees. I came home with dirty hands and poison oak and ivy... I was a true kid. As an adult, I have built up an immunity to things like poison ivy, I believe due to exposure. The safety police also assault us through advertising. One o my favorite song lyrics is from Joe Jackson: "Everything gives you cancer..." The fear of what might happens makes us buy all those special extra clean soaps and bottled water. As and aside: I was on the beach the other night with a small fire in an old grill. I was the only one on the beach. The ranger pulled up and said" well at least you are being kinda safe." He then informed me that open fires were no longer allowed on the beach. There were a number of points I did not argue.(he had the badge I did not)...1) the fire he called open I called contained. 2) Why is a charcoal fire OK to cook on yet a wood fire is not. 3) when did fire (that thing that helped build civilization as we know it today) become bad and microwave ovens become good. 4) I was on the beach, with a small fire, surrounded by tons and tons of water and sand, how can that be dangerous? I guess these are the sacrifices we all made when our society decided to transform from a world of personal responsibility to a world of CYA. Brian Rice 508-685-0716 b_ricie [at] yahoo.com "Blessed are the cracked: For it is they who let in the light." __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42A9B5BB.6020002 [at] ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:46:03 -0700 From: "Bryan H. Ackler" Organization: Va. Tech - Vassar - USITT - NTHP Subject: RE: Copyright of silence References: In-Reply-To: Isn't the piece of music actually a series of various "rest" notes............ so actually it is music, not silence, silence is only the perception. Kinda like the "tree falls in the forest" it is all a matter of wording..... :-) Bryan H. Ackler Portland, Oregon ============================================== From: "RICHARD FINKELSTEIN" Subject: Copyright of silence Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:46:30 -0400 Indeed John Cage's silent piece IS protected by copyright, but all hell breaks loose after that fact in enforcement. Somewhere (alas not filed yet) I have a really funny article on the Cage's folks suing someone for stealing his silence. While silence per se is not protected by copyright, the performer in question, in his own title referenced John Cage and his piece....hense the suit. Richard Finkelstein http://www.rfdesigns.org/ http://www.artslynx.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:57:56 -0400 Subject: Re: what is safe? From: Steve Larson Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Perhaps it is what is left behind, the ashes, the partially burnt wood that is the problem. Steve > I was on the beach, with a small fire, surrounded by > tons and tons of water and sand, how can that be > dangerous? I guess these are the sacrifices we all > made when our society decided to transform from a > world of personal responsibility to a world of CYA. > > Brian Rice > 508-685-0716 > b_ricie [at] yahoo.com > "Blessed are the cracked: For it is they who let in the > light." > > > > __________________________________ > Discover Yahoo! > Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! > http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html > > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42A9B77C.1040407 [at] hillinteractive.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:53:32 -0400 From: Howard Ires Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? References:

In-Reply-To: Jerry Durand wrote: > A good example is a cousin of mine. She grew up in a condo building > with an elevator. Her mother NEVER let her near stairs, because she > might fall. My cousin grew up not being able to negotiate stairs very > well. Our motto here has always been "House-proof the child" rather than "Child-proof the house." --------------------howie ------------------------------ Message-ID: <001701c56dd7$24083100$0600000a [at] BRUTUS> From: "Jon Ares" References: Subject: Re: what is safe? Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 09:12:03 -0700 > > Perhaps it is what is left behind, the ashes, > the partially burnt wood that is the problem. > ....and still-hot coals buried in the sand, which could be stepped on by a small child. ("Fire pit mine.") Of course, smart people put out their beach fires with water.... but a few bad apples spoil it for the rest.... -- Jon Ares Program Director, West Linn HS Theatre Arts www.hevanet.com/acreative www.wlhstheatre.org ------------------------------ From: MissWisc [at] aol.com Message-ID: <14.470b8cd2.2fdb16d8 [at] aol.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:16:24 EDT Subject: Re: Copyright of silence The print of Cage's 4'33" I saw simply says "Tacet" over each movement and a single double whole rest on the staff. Kristi ------------------------------ Subject: RE: Rigging Question/When is it safe? Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:18:06 -0400 Message-ID: <6E497ADB607656479C24E6D7BF6B505A0196C844 [at] exchange.rmwc.edu> From: "Paul Schreiner" > Our motto here has always been "House-proof the child" rather than=20 > "Child-proof the house." Good motto. Especially since there is no such thing as a truly "child-proof" house. Kinda like trying to make things idiot-proof, and how doing that only helps evolution along the path to the smarter idiot. ------------------------------ From: MissWisc [at] aol.com Message-ID: <15b.52d9b8e0.2fdb1b00 [at] aol.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:34:08 EDT Subject: Re: flying effect for Les Miz In a message dated 6/10/2005 9:30:11 AM Central Daylight Time, drkrajec [at] stritch.edu writes: <> Though I appreciate the fact that many HS theatre teachers are professional caliber, there are MANY who are simply doing the task because it was an available assignment. They are the scary component. One of my two HS theatre teachers had acted in 2 plays in college. That was the sum total of his theatre experience. No technical background. Nothing with how to direct. He was certified in English. Far too many administrators say "Close enough! Plays are literature." and send the teacher off to do something beyond his knowledge. I can't begin to count the number of people whom I'm working with who say "Why can't we all use the community tacklebox full of makeup? That's what I was taught in college? (or what we've done for years!)" I just smile and ask if he rode a horse to school this morning. :) Kristi ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "Scheu Consulting Services" Subject: RE: flying effect for Les Miz Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:58:28 -0400 Organization: Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. Message-ID: <000001c56ddd$9ff264b0$c9fea8c0 [at] ROXY> In-Reply-To: MissWisc [at] aol.com wrote: >Though I appreciate the fact that many HS theatre teachers=20 >are professional=20 >caliber, there are MANY who are simply doing the task because=20 >it was an=20 >available assignment. They are the scary component. I hope this divergent thread was not in response to my earlier comment = that expressed concern that a rigging effect such as was described for Les = Miz was contemplated by a high school. I know there are MANY, MANY very good, even excellent, High School = theatre tech folk out there, some who contribute to this list. I commend them = all! But at the same time, I have to agree with Kristi's comment above. In = the vast majority of middle and high schools, there is no "experienced" tech person - that is, one who has been trained in the field, and who has = worked professionally in the field at one time or another. In my past life as a project manager for JR Clancy, the number of times I had to "train" the English teacher or the Janitor on the large, 50 set counterweight system (with a grid!) is too scary to contemplate. So many HS's in the past decade built large stages, with relatively sophisticated rigging systems, but never budgeted for a full time staff = tech person(s) to manage the space. That, too, is a scary component. But that's what happens when you get lots of money for capital = improvement, but none for ongoing salaries. Go figgur... Peter Scheu Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. www.scheuconsulting.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42A9D30E.8168F020 [at] cybercom.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:51:10 -0400 From: Dale Farmer Organization: The fuzz in the back of the fridge. Subject: High school teachers was: flying effect for Les Miz References: MissWisc [at] aol.com wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 6/10/2005 9:30:11 AM Central Daylight Time, > drkrajec [at] stritch.edu writes: > < theatre teacher. They are as much a professional as anyone else in the theatre. > They just practice their profession in a different arena.>> > > Though I appreciate the fact that many HS theatre teachers are professional > caliber, there are MANY who are simply doing the task because it was an > available assignment. They are the scary component. > > One of my two HS theatre teachers had acted in 2 plays in college. That was > the sum total of his theatre experience. No technical background. Nothing with > how to direct. He was certified in English. Far too many administrators say > "Close enough! Plays are literature." and send the teacher off to do > something beyond his knowledge. High school theater is always subject to the whims of the administration and the knowledge and enthusiasm of the teacher. I suppose I was lucky, my high school theater teacher was an english teacher who was a working actress during school vacations and summer stock. It was greatly impressing to me as a student that I saw her on TV commercials. She had built up a good department, with a full time technical director, and close cooperation with the music departments. The school also had a small theater and a larger auditorium. She retired my freshman year, and her successor was a enthusiastic english teacher, who was pretty good, although not as skilled an actor/director/producer, was also not as good at defending her budget, but was more than competent. I largely focused on technical theater at the time, so my primary teacher was the TD. She kept up the rotation that her predecessor had established, one big play for christmas, a big musical production for the spring, and smaller shows every few weeks of various types. We also supported a couple of community drama groups, concerts, and so on in the venues. I thought it worked pretty well. Her successor was this english teacher who did nothing but odd avant-garde things. He bought bleacher seats and set them up on the stage to pretend it was a black box theater. He treats the tech director as an overpaid menial, and has had his budget cut every year, along with his drastically falling ticket revenue. Unfortunately, tenure is keeping his little cult of personality going, I can only hope that when he retires the program will be able to recover. --Dale ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:14:54 -0400 From: Delbert Hall Reply-To: Delbert Hall Subject: Re: High school teachers was: flying effect for Les Miz In-Reply-To: References:

I do a lot of shows with high schools and I have seen some really excellent (knowledgeable) high school drama teachers and some that did not know if their counterweight system was a single purchase or a double purchase system (yes, they did teach stagecraft, but I do not know how). There are also people at professional theatres who also lack compentence too. Just this morning I spoke to a someone (he might have been the TD) of a long running outdoor drama who needed to do a hanging effect for their show. He said nearly ALL of the things that I hate to hear from someone in this position: 1) They plan on doing it themselves 2) They think they have found eveything they need at a local building supply store 3) Someone told them that they would need a swaging tool, but they did not know where to get one (and therefore I have to assume that they do not know how to use it correctly either) 4) They need the effect done in a hurry 5) They are getting a harnesses from a local guy, but they don't know anything about it. Since I am leaving for Rome tomorrow, so I told him that I could not help and I wished him luck. -Delbert --=20 Delbert Hall Phone: 423-773-4255 ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050610113243.0171fda0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:32:43 From: CB Subject: Re: Copyright of silence >AND THEN OF COURSE, THE CAGE EFFECT -- CHILD SAYS NOTHING FOR 4 >MINUTES, 33 SECONDS. PREFERRED BY 9 OUT OF 10 CLASSROOM TEACHERS ...and then get sued in a class action by the combined estates of Marcel Marceau and John Cage for an undisclosed six figure sum. Over a hundred thousand dollars for an homage, indeed. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050610113915.0171fda0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:39:15 From: CB Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? > I would have no problem from either a 'safety conscience' or a legal liability standpoint, with awarding a rigging contract to Delbert, with my specification that he sublet the harness design, engineering, and construction to the Foy shop in LV, for example. Then, I have TWO large insurance companies/policies Ehm, Richard, you might be the one to address this more closely, but isn't this just building in their own responsibility? I see the screenplay running something like this: Delbert Hall:"I did this correctly, but it was the fault of the harness and gear that I HAD to hire to get the show. It failed/It was unfamiliar/it didn't work as it was supposed to..." Foy Shopguy:"We supplied the correct gear, and it was all working fine. It was the way it was mated to DH's gear/his unfamiliarity/run improperly. DH and FS in unison:"It would have been fine, your honor, if he had sent one or teh other of us with our own gear to maek the effect happen. The responsibility is his for contractually insisting that the two companies be mixed in such a manner." Judge:"Case dismissed." Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050610114905.0171fda0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:49:05 From: CB Subject: Mike (was:Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe?) >Remember all the grief that Michael Jackson received for holding his >son out over a balcony when the child was an infant? Did Jackson >expose his son to an unacceptable amount of danger? I'd like to propose a moratorium on the mention of Mr. Jackson in any future posts. Mr. Jackson is very controversial at this time, and those that like him will agree with you, those that don't will not. Or the other way around, depending. There is no useful way to use him as an example of real life and have it sere any useful purpose Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050610120024.0171fda0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:00:24 From: CB Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? > There are still other activities, like racing cars down dark >public streets at 130 mph, taking certain drugs, and not wearing fall >protection when working at heights, that are just plain foolhearty and >no one should do them, so here the law tries to protect us from >ourselves and each other. Which ones? Celebrex? Viagra? Acetaminophen kills a hundred folk a year, and sends another 13,000 to the emergency room. I was very concerned about what chemicals I put in my body as a young man, and I did some things some would consider foolish, some would consider dangerous. I studied my chemistry and my history, and discussed my choices with experienced folk, and still didn't come under as much potential hazard as what I've been presribed by a trained professional. I've done all those other things as well, and yeah, I probably should have gone, to wherever it is I'm headed, a long time ago. I wouldn't trade any of those experiences for a bike helmet today. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050610120247.0171fda0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 12:02:47 From: CB Subject: Re: Hey, >No problem. I just found the irony too good to pass up. Thanks for >the giggle at your expense. ;-) All part of the service, sir. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42A9EAE1.7080103 [at] hillinteractive.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:32:49 -0400 From: Howard Ires Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? References: In-Reply-To: Wood Chip-P26398 wrote: > Can you still get Tinkertoys and Erector sets? A couple months ago I bought my son a 40 year old erector set on ebay for forty bucks. Almost the same one I had 40 years ago, with the blue plug-in motor and gear box! ----------------Howie ------------------------------ From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: <1b9.1553f6de.2fdb471e [at] aol.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:42:22 EDT Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? In a message dated 6/10/05 3:33:05 PM, hi [at] hillinteractive.net writes: << Wood Chip-P26398 wrote: > Can you still get Tinkertoys and Erector sets? A couple months ago I bought my son a 40 year old erector set on ebay for forty bucks. Almost the same one I had 40 years ago, with the blue plug-in motor and gear box! >> that same Errector set probably couldn't be sold today, the parts would probably be considered too dangerous, and would require significant modification. That motor doesn't have a ground does it I bet ? Amazing to think that we all survived our youth. very best, Keith Arsenault IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:06:26 -0400 From: Delbert Hall Reply-To: Delbert Hall Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? In-Reply-To: References: My brother and I were quite adventurous in our youth. One day we decided that we wanted to try parasailing so we purchased a parachute and harness at an Army Supply store. He wanted to do it first so he put it on, and I tied one end of a 100' rope to the harness and the other to the bumper of my father's 1964 Plymouth Fury. He stood down-wind and we were able to get the chute filled. I jumped in the car and hit the gas. I drug him across a field for several hundred yards, but he never got into the air. I think he broke a couple of ribs, (he was sore for several months) but we never told anyone at that time about that adventure. Keith is right, it is amazing that we survived our youth. =20 -Delbert --=20 Delbert Hall Phone: 423-773-4255 ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References: Message-Id: <1239fedf7b11b256874f4150722b0589 [at] nyu.edu> From: Mike Voytko Subject: Re: Sound Levels? Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 16:44:13 -0400 Cosmo: A wise move, increasingly necessary to contain the performer/composer who thinks louder = better, while the rest of us (old farts and young!) bleed from our ears. I'm in the process of drafting limits also; right now I have my compressor/limiters set to deliver ~85dB w/all levels at unity, and ~90-95dB maximum. A-weighted, measured from in the back row. Most SPL limits I've seen use an A-weighted reading, but I've read that C-weighting is more suited to accurately metering an amplified music source, especially at the low end. As for enforcement, I like Jeff's policy of issuing a warning, then threatening to pull the plug :-) BTW, two interesting articles I found in my travels: On the (ever-increasing) sound levels in U.S. movie theaters and mixing stages: http://millimeter.com/mag/video_loud_irony_enters/ A Canadian Health Service FAQ on noise exposure risks and preventing hearing damage: http://www.chs.ca/info/noise/book1.html#Anchor-Exposure-35882 If you find any published standards or other useful info, please share w/the list. Congrats on the new building! Cheers, Mike V. -- Mike Voytko Lighting & Sound Supervisor TSOA Theatrical Production New York University On Jun 10, 2005, at 8:11 AM, Cosmo Catalano wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > > > I'm putting together an info sheet for our facility. I'm aware that > other venues have information regarding maximum sound levels > allowable. We are an indoor venue, so our local noise ordinances is > not applicable. OHSA regulations (1926.53) can be offered, they > permit 115db for 15 min and refer to constant levels This seems > pretty darn loud (to this old fart) for a theatre. Can anyone speak > to what their venue permits and any action they have taken when it is > exceeded? Specific info (db, what scale, location of measurement, > etc) would be helpful. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:52:52 -1000 From: "Paul Guncheon" Subject: Re: Erector ert Message-id: <004301c56dfe$5fdf07e0$683e4104 [at] yourxhtr8hvc4p> References: <> If you're going to get an Erector set, I would suggest getting a vintage set. Should you go that way, get the biggest one, the 12-1/2 model... the one that can build the robot. My dad got us the # 11 which was fine (no, sigh ... it wasn't), but I always wanted the robot one (with light up eyes!) and still do. I currently have several small sets whose parts I use when building small devices. Laters, Paul "Please don't sneeze with your mouth full, said Tom to the carpet-layer tactfully. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:07:28 -1000 From: "Paul Guncheon" Subject: Re: Stairs Message-id: <004801c56e00$697c8230$683e4104 [at] yourxhtr8hvc4p> References: <> There perhaps may be something more at play here. I wasn't even exposed to stairs until I was around 13. There simply weren't any around. Laters, Paul "Do you know the location?" asked Tom warily. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050610141109.0388b6f8 [at] 192.168.0.13> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:12:14 -0700 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: Stairs In-Reply-To: References:

At 02:07 PM 6/10/2005, you wrote: >There perhaps may be something more at play here. I wasn't even exposed to >stairs until I was around 13. There simply weren't any around. Probably just her mother keeping her from doing much of anything by herself (walking, playing with friends, etc.). ---------- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20050610213248.16109.qmail [at] web50807.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 14:32:48 -0700 (PDT) From: ken frederickson Subject: more vector works help In-Reply-To: where do i find the people symbols??? I know they are there somewhere in the resources folder.... thanks. ken __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: MissWisc [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:23:07 EDT Subject: Re: flying effect for Les Miz No Peter, I was commenting on Dave K's remark that HS theatre teachers are professionals too. I think it's WONDERFUL that HS/MS teachers are asking quetsions about this because it means they care enough to find out that there is a safe way to do flying effects. I've learned a LOT about rigging over the years, but when it comes to flying a body, I wouldn't take that responsibility. Some things are best left to the experts, not just the professionals. :) Kristi ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References:

Message-Id: From: Jason Romney Subject: Re: Sound Levels? Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:39:08 -0400 On Jun 10, 2005, at 4:44 PM, Mike Voytko wrote: > Most SPL limits I've seen use an A-weighted reading, but I've read > that C-weighting is more suited to accurately metering an amplified > music source, especially at the low end. > Enforcing an SPL limit policy using C-weighted measuring might be a little unfair since the meter will be hearing the low end much louder than the human beings are. Generally speaking, A-weighting measures the frequency response more like the frequency response of the human ear. Now, that being said, it's only true for levels measured below 100dB. If you're measuring higher than 100dB, B-weighting measures more like the human ear. So if your SPL limit is 100dB or less, I would use A-weighting for your measurement. If your limit is higher than 100dB, use B-weighted measurement (or C if your meter doesn't do B). But you should always specify in your policy the weighting. For example, "the sound level shall not exceed 100dB SPL A-weighting when measured from the back row of the theatre." _______________________________________________________ Jason Romney Sound Design Instructor - North Carolina School of the Arts Vice Commissioner for Computing Industry - USITT Sound Commission jason [at] cd-romney.com romneyj [at] ncarts.edu http://www.ncarts.edu/ncsaprod/designandproduction/dtsdw.asp http://www.cd-romney.com ------------------------------ Message-Id: <6.2.1.2.0.20050610154142.038c42d8 [at] 192.168.0.13> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:43:15 -0700 From: Jerry Durand Subject: Re: Sound Levels? In-Reply-To: References:

At 03:39 PM 6/10/2005, you wrote: >For example, "the sound level shall not exceed 100dB SPL A-weighting when >measured from the back row of the theatre." Any specifications for the front row (or next to the speakers, wherever they are)? Seems from a liability standpoint you'd have to measure the level at the loudest place a customer could be. ---------- Jerry Durand Durand Interstellar, Inc. 219 Oak Wood Way Los Gatos, California 95032-2523 USA tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886 web: www.interstellar.com ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "C. Andrew Dunning" Subject: RE: more vector works help Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:06:41 -0500 Organization: Landru Design In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ken - >where do i find the people symbols??? I know they are there >somewhere in the resources folder... There aren't any people (that I know of) included with VectorWorks. I use a growing library of mannequins that I've created using a Poser figure as a starting-point. You can DL one of them at www.landrudesign.com/Downloads_Main.htm, if you are interested. I've seen other VW users using either Image Props or building their own libraries, as I've done. C. Andrew Dunning Landru Design - Nashville, TN - cad [at] landrudesign.com www.landrudesign.com ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References:

Back when I was teaching SCUBA diving, we had a very good waiver that very rarely failed, (so I'm told as I was never sued.) It came down to the judge asking: Did they tell you you could get killed or seriously hurt doing this? This waiver says they did: case dismissed. On that note, we were required to watch the student read the entire waiver and then sign it. Scott On 6/9/05, Bill Sapsis wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- >=20 > According to the lawyers I have spoken with (30 odd years in the rigging > business???...Yeah, I've spoken with more than my share of lawyers) and t= hey > all seem to be in agreement on this one. Waivers of responsibility are > normally not worth the paper they are written on. --=20 Take care, Scott Scott C. Parker Professor/Technical Director Dept. of Performing Arts Dyson College of Arts and Sciences [at] Pace University Office/shipping: 41 Park Row, 1205F Mailing: 1 Pace Plaza=20 New York, NY 10038 212-346-1423 Fax: 914-989-8425 ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References:

Message-Id: <6b9ebfe3934aa38107f59dc5ff59d881 [at] appstate.edu> From: Greg Williams Subject: Re: High school teachers was: flying effect for Les Miz Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:01:57 -0400 On Jun 10, 2005, at 2:14 PM, Delbert Hall wrote: > There are also people at professional theatres who also > lack compentence too. Just this morning I spoke to a someone (he > might have been the TD) of a long running outdoor drama who needed to > do a hanging effect for their show. He said nearly ALL of the things > that I hate to hear from someone in this position: Yep, I suspect that this is the same long-running outdoor drama that called me on Thursday, with basically the same scary details. It's a great example of people insisting on doing things when they should know better. Two different people called Thursday afternoon. I suspect neither was the TD, as their TD took a walk last week. There is a possibility that they promoted an intern. Even scarier. 1) I suspect the actor has designed the trick, or has been the driving force behind pushing them to do it, beyond their comfort zone. I don't know that for a fact, but I've been told so. His closest link to this type of trick that I'm aware of is that he married the young lady who broke a flying director's arm once during a flying stunt. 2) They "knew" exactly what they wanted to order, but they needed me to come up with the list and bring the gear and have it installed less than 48 hours later. "Just get us some real hemp rope, some whatchallit cable and them sleeve things, bring it over Saturday and put it up for us." 3) One idea they threw out is that they want to be able to throw the manila rope over the limb of a tree each performance... thirty feet off the ground... make it look more spontaneous I suppose. I also wished them luck, and backed away slowly. This is the same drama that had new FOH lighting towers installed this year by the town. No cross bracing, rickety (broken rung) handmade ladder for access, and the lighting pipes were supported by vertical 2x6's, thru-drilled, and the pipes extended out over the audience. Wait, it gets better... the pipes were "stabilized" by C-clamps which had lag screws on either side of the yoke-bolt throat. The lag screws were in the wood _maybe_ a 1/2 inch. I got the call when one of the pipes with roostered instruments rolled on them during set-up as it ripped the lag screw out. They roostered the instruments while standing _on_ the railing, 25 feet or so off the cement steps, and leaning out, with no fall protection other than the guardian angel obviously perched on their shoulders. Following some excellent consultation time with Bill Sapsis, that multitude of hazardous conditions have all been fixed. The hanging stunt, however... [shudder]... noooooo way, and mostly because _I_ know it's beyond their ability to do safely, no matter what _they_ believe. -=Greg Williams=- Production Manager Valborg Theatre, Appalachian State University ------We're at it again!!!------ Check out the Long Reach Long Riders cross country fund raiser for BC/EFA at http://sapsis-rigging.com/LRLR.html ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:22:10 -0400 From: Delbert Hall Reply-To: Delbert Hall Subject: Re: High school teachers was: flying effect for Les Miz In-Reply-To: References:

Yep, same group. They called me on Thursday too, but I did not get around to calling them back until this morning. It was a short conversation. With stuff like this going on it makes you wonder how they have been running for so long. -Delbert On 6/10/05, Greg Williams wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Yep, I suspect that this is the same long-running outdoor drama that > called me on Thursday, with basically the same scary details. It's a > great example of people insisting on doing things when they should know > better. > ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42AA5C6C.E6D4A667 [at] cybercom.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:37:17 -0400 From: Dale Farmer Organization: The fuzz in the back of the fridge. Subject: Re: Sound Levels? References: "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Each theatre has different acoustical qualities. Each group has different > sound levels and there are many elements to consider when designing and > setting levels for proper compliance with sound levels. Thought 115 may be > OSHA for your facility it may be too high. There are indoor decibel levels, > ANSI and some that have been set by different groups that deal with > acoustical levels and Hearing conservation. Dr. doom When I was in the navy, single hearing protection started at 84dBa, double protection ( plugs and muffs) at 104, and time limits at 114. This was for continuous exposure noise, impulse noise is a different matter. The rule of thumb I was given was that if you had to raise your voice to be heard at normal conversational distance, that was 64dBa. I forget what shouting to be heard was, high 70s I think. We didn't have an noise level meter on the ship normally, although I did have some noise dosimeters for a month or so when we got an experimental sonar installed and were figuring out hearing conservation rules for it. It put out in excess of 130dB, all at one frequency. It didn't make the ocean boil, but it would drive air out of solution. *loud* --Dale ------------------------------ From: "ladesigners [at] juno.com" Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 04:08:11 GMT Subject: RE: Rigging Question/When is it safe? Message-Id: <20050610.210842.11905.51196 [at] webmail18.lax.untd.com> Dear Chris, Please observe how it works when you are dealing with the largest specifier of contracted goods and services on the planet --- the federal government. They specify subcontractors all the time. Sometimes it is because they want to spread the money around between the states, as is the case of military aircraft, sometimes it is for equal opportunity purposes, sometimes someone was paid off, sometimes someone made a substantial political contribution to the right person/party, and sometimes they just prefer a certain subcontractor's goods over another's for irrational reasons. Nonetheless, it is possible to fix blame and liability when it is necessary to do so, such as when a particular subcontractor was found to be responsible when the seals failed on one of the tanks on the Space Shuttle Columbia. /s/ Richard Ehm, Richard, I see the screenplay running something like this: Delbert Hall:"I did this correctly, but it was the fault of the harness and gear that I HAD to hire to get the show. It failed/It was unfamiliar/it didn't work as it was supposed to..." Foy Shopguy:"We supplied the correct gear, and it was all working fine. It was the way it was mated to DH's gear/his unfamiliarity/run improperly. DH and FS in unison:"It would have been fine, your honor, if he had sent one or teh other of us with our own gear to maek the effect happen. The responsibility is his for contractually insisting that the two companies be mixed in such a manner. Chris "Chris" Babbie ------------------------------ In-Reply-To: References:

Message-Id: From: Jason Romney Subject: Re: Sound Levels? Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:12:47 -0400 On Jun 10, 2005, at 6:43 PM, Jerry Durand wrote: > At 03:39 PM 6/10/2005, you wrote: > >> For example, "the sound level shall not exceed 100dB SPL A-weighting >> when measured from the back row of the theatre." > > Any specifications for the front row (or next to the speakers, > wherever they are)? Seems from a liability standpoint you'd have to > measure the level at the loudest place a customer could be. It's just tough to measure the sound level at the front row during the performance. You should probably decide the loudest level any audience member should hear. Then just do a quick calculation of how much dB you lose between the front row and the back row. x = 20 log (d0/d1) x = dB loss at the back row d0 = distance from loudspeakers to front row d1 = distance from loudspeakers to back row Then just subtract x from your max SPL and you have your max SPL level at the back row. Now before somebody jumps all over me, I know this formula assumes a free-field environment and depending on the acoustic properties of your room your dB loss over distance may vary. But this should suffice as a rough estimate. _______________________________________________________ Jason Romney Sound Design Instructor - North Carolina School of the Arts Vice Commissioner for Computing Industry - USITT Sound Commission jason [at] cd-romney.com romneyj [at] ncarts.edu http://www.ncarts.edu/ncsaprod/designandproduction/dtsdw.asp http://www.cd-romney.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42AA6D7A.704 [at] fuse.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:50:02 -0400 From: Stuart Wheaton Subject: Re: Stubborn carriage bolts References:

In-Reply-To: Christopher K. Nimm wrote: > I'm curious: what sort of fastening method do you suggest in place of > carriage bolts? Let us look closely at a carriage bolt... It has a head which is domed, not flat, yet which does not project very far above the surface and has no means to grasp it. It has a square under the head, but as we know that square rapidly gnaws away the wood if the threads get bunged up or rusted. Since bolts are expensive, and theatre folk are packrats, the bolts will be used multiple times so the threads WILL get bunged up. If you want a low profile head, why not use a flat headed stove bolt (or machine screw) Available in slotted or phillips and up to 1/2" diameter. If you do not need the low profile head, use a hex bolt. Carriage bolts are a lousy compromise with no feature that excells. Stuart ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42AA70F6.4030106 [at] fuse.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 01:04:54 -0400 From: Stuart Wheaton Subject: Re: Sound Levels? References:

In-Reply-To: Jason Romney wrote: > > On Jun 10, 2005, at 6:43 PM, Jerry Durand wrote: > >> At 03:39 PM 6/10/2005, you wrote: >> >>> For example, "the sound level shall not exceed 100dB SPL A-weighting >>> when measured from the back row of the theatre." >> >> >> Any specifications for the front row (or next to the speakers, >> wherever they are)? Seems from a liability standpoint you'd have to >> measure the level at the loudest place a customer could be. > > > It's just tough to measure the sound level at the front row during the > performance. You should probably decide the loudest level any audience > member should hear. Then just do a quick calculation of how much dB you > lose between the front row and the back row. > > x = 20 log (d0/d1) > > x = dB loss at the back row > d0 = distance from loudspeakers to front row > d1 = distance from loudspeakers to back row > > Then just subtract x from your max SPL and you have your max SPL level > at the back row. > I think it makes the most sense to make your limit apply to the mix position. Otherwise the guy who's riding the faders cannot see and adjust the level at the same time. Stuart ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42AA75B3.2020603 [at] fuse.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 01:25:07 -0400 From: Stuart Wheaton Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? References:

In-Reply-To: Stephen Litterst wrote: > I speak for me, and me alone... > > It's ok for someone to try it for the first time after they have been > thoroughly trained and have assisted a qualified operator enough that > the supervisor feels the person is competent. This is not only true > for flying people, it's true for flying *anything*, hanging lights, > firing pyrotechnics, mixing sound, etc. The training period may be > shorter for some of those other tasks, but I think people should be > trained no matter what they're doing in theatre. (And they should be > trained to do it the way *I* want it done! :)) > > Steve LItterst I follow the "Wright Brothers Model". When you venture into territory that is new, read everything you can find, ask anybody who you think might know something about it, then build models and samples and test them, then when you get the real thing ready, the guys who designed and built it have the first human test. When I designed the trap and slide for Sweeney Todd years ago, we followed this process, and even though we were sure the effect would work fine, I took the first ride, then each carp who built part of it, then the SM and even the director rode it before we decided it was actor proof. Too many people use the "Neil Armstrong Model" where the poor bugger who first puts his life on the line had very little to do with all the parts that could fail and kill him. ------------------------------ Message-ID: <3336.64.28.54.118.1118468613.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Sound Levels? From: "Bill Nelson" > The rule of thumb I was given was that if you had to raise your voice to be > heard at normal conversational distance, that was 64dBa. I forget what > shouting to be heard was, high 70s I think. Here are some rough figures: Normal conversation at 3 ft is about 60-65 dB(A) Vacuum cleaners run about 70 dB at operating distance A diesel truck driving past 50 ft away is about 85 dB A lawn mower is about 95-100 dB at operating distance A 3 dB increase (doubling in level) in level is barely noticeable for most people. 120 dB is supposedly the threshhold of pain for the average person. Bill ------------------------------ From: "Simon Shuker" Cc: delbert.hall [at] gmail.com ('Delbert Hall') Subject: RE: High school teachers was: flying effect for Les Miz Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:48:02 +0400 In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <20050611054821.E69B75884 [at] mail05.powweb.com> --------------------------------------------------- Yep, same group. They called me on Thursday too, but I did not get around to calling them back until this morning. It was a short conversation. With stuff like this going on it makes you wonder how they have been running for so long. -Delbert They have been going so long because there standards and experience are going in opposite directions. Eventually they will run out of luck and experience will not be able to carry them through. Hopefully it not be at the expense of a human being. Simon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 02:11:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Sound Levels? FORD AMPHITHEATRE noise issues From: Seth Richardson In-Reply-To: Message-Id: On Friday, June 10, 2005, at 09:10 AM, IAEG [at] aol.com wrote: > > As many of you may or may not know, , the FORD AMPHITHEATRE ( i e Clear > Channel Entertainment ) here in Tampa is having a battle with the > Hillsborough > County EPC which monitors noise regulations, > From the St. Pete Times: ("When you look at similar sound issues stemming from other entertainment centers in the metropolitan area," Morrell said, "you see that EPC is unfairly treating us one way while treating others differently." Not so, the EPC says. "They came into town and represented themselves as being good corporate citizens to induce the government to sanction what they were doing," Bentley said. "They essentially misrepresented their true intentions to the government. And unfortunately, they picked the wrong government to mess with because we're not going away until they come into compliance.") Kids, kids, can't they just play nice.... > Seems that have been a ton of complaints from neigborhoods as far as > three > miles away about the high volume levels on many ( not all ) of the > shows > From the St. Pete Times: ("Even with the doors and windows shut, you can hear the crowd," said Angela McCants, who lives less than a mile away.) What do they want to do, have the band to ask the crowd not the cheer? > Well there is a front page article in todays ST PETE TIMES that I > think many > of you will find interesting > From the St. Pete Times: (The amphitheater was controversial before it was built because of concerns that it would draw business away from the St. Pete Times Forum, which was built partly with public financing.) This is the only reason St. Pete Times cares about this I bet. From the St. Pete Times: (Experts hired by the EPC, including a sound engineer from the University of Florida, say the higher roof could easily account for noise in the neighborhood, Bentley said.) "Could" Is he a expert or a guy off the street? Seth Richardson P.S. To think if they just add 34 feet of dirt to the berm this would all go away. ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20050611080700.86895.qmail [at] web33309.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 01:07:00 -0700 (PDT) From: J Burch Subject: More rigging Questions In-Reply-To: Greetings I have just caught up on the list and I have a few questions to add to the rigging questions that have been mentioned. 1. I recently found some shackles that were marked USA, with a load rating, but the pin was blue not red. What is the difference - manufacturer, age? 2. One of the shows that I just finished did a flying rig in which I had no part with, but was very uncomfortable with. As the facility was not mine, and I was not in a position of control over that part, I was unable to stop the effect from happening. What is the best way to handle this position? The group discussed the flying effect (three children flying straight up and down)they discussed the effect with a circus performer who told them to get sheaves and wire rope. The facility made the group purchase sheave with a 5-1 rating that were id with a manufacturer, and they were convinced to use an operating line as opposed to pulling in the aircraft cable. There were multiple factors that I considered unsafe. My options as I saw it was to A - walk away from the show entirely and leave them without scenery, or B- not partake in the effect at all and therefore avoid liability. I had some conversations with the facility manager, who obviously felt that it wasn't a big deal to fly children, and that he could take care of it. What other options are out there to prevent this scenario? 3. This same facility manager claims that when using cable clips (these were on the flying rig) that the dead end should have a stop sleeve compressed onto the cable. He claims this is the standard and that the Glerum book dictates it. The only thing that I can find in Glerum's book is an illistration on page 200 that I understood to be the end of the wire rope being bound to prevent fraying. I have never seen this before and was curious about whether or not others did this as well. I usually use compression sleeves since the rating is better and a torque wrench is not needed for proper tightening. (nor a retightening after loading). 4. Also with the flying rig the facility requested that on the ofstage side of the rig that the termination of the cable (to where the rope must be attached for the operating line) be a thimble that was properly sized for the cable but a larger diameter opening to ease the tying of a knot. I have never seen thimbles such as these and was wondering if they do exsist and if they do where? Jean Burch __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #424 *****************************