Return-Path: X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Lite Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 23032164; Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:01:47 -0700 X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #425 Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 03:01:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on prxy.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.6 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.3 X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4f2 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #425 1. Re: Sound Levels? FORD AMPHITHEATRE noise issues by IAEG [at] aol.com 2. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by Delbert Hall 3. Re: More rigging Questions by Bill Sapsis 4. unprotected youth by Judy 5. Re: More rigging Questions by Delbert Hall 6. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by "Dan Lewis" 7. Re: Stubborn carriage bolts by "Josh Ratty" 8. Re: Sound Levels? by Adam Fitchett 9. Re: Erector Set by "Paul Guncheon" 10. Re: Sound Levels? by CB 11. Re: Sound Levels? FORD AMPHITHEATRE noise issues by CB 12. Re: Sound Levels? by CB 13. what is safe? by CB 14. Re: flying effect for Les Miz by CB 15. Re: Sound Levels? by CB 16. Re: Sound Levels? by CB 17. Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? by CB 18. lightweigh headsets in NY City by David Wetmore 19. flying fx training by "RODOK!!!" 20. Re: Sound Levels? by Bruce Purdy 21. Is it too good to be true? by "James, Brian" 22. Re: Sound Levels? by "Bill Nelson" 23. Re: Is it too good to be true? by "Tony Deeming" *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IAEG [at] aol.com Message-ID: <142.470b52ed.2fdc1be8 [at] aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 06:50:16 EDT Subject: Re: Sound Levels? FORD AMPHITHEATRE noise issues In a message dated 6/11/05 2:12:02 AM, sarvernon [at] adelphia.net writes: << Seth Richardson P.S. To think if they just add 34 feet of dirt to the berm this would all go away. >> Oh if it were that simple, , ther berm is back up to an Interstate highway and has a concrete retaining wall to keep it from collapsing onto an exit ramp they have built in a couple of areas around the venue large walls of scaffolding that are loaded with hay bales and covered with plastic scrim like one would cover a speaker stack with but there is going to have to be some significant additional permanent construction to the venue to cure these ills it would seem, very best, Keith Arsenault IAEG - International Arts & Entertainment Group Tampa, Florida ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 06:51:00 -0400 From: Delbert Hall Reply-To: Delbert Hall Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? In-Reply-To: References: Since I keep being referenced in this thread, let me set some things straig= ht. 1) I work for ZFX, not Foy 2) To the best of my knowledge neither Foy nor ZFX rents equipment, they provide a service which includes a flying director who is either a full-time employee of the company or a sub-contractor trained by the company). The client would have a contract with the flying effects company, not the flying firector. 3) Yes, the client could name both the flying effects company and the flying director in any suit, but the flying director would be covered under the insurance policy of the flying effects company, even if he is a sub-contractor. I hope that helps -Delbert --=20 Delbert Hall ZFX Technical Flying Director Phone: 423-773-4255 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:12:05 -0400 Subject: Re: More rigging Questions From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Oy! So many questions for a Saturday morning. on 6/11/05 4:07 AM, J Burch at jeanburch_td [at] yahoo.com wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Greetings > I have just caught up on the list and I have a few > questions to add to the rigging questions that have > been mentioned. > > 1. I recently found some shackles that were marked > USA, with a load rating, but the pin was blue not red. > What is the difference - manufacturer, age? No difference. The paint (or lack of) on a shackle does not mean anything. Companies sometimes paint them to make them easier to sort when there are multiple riggging companies on the same project. Mine are green > > 2. One of the shows that I just finished did a flying > rig in which I had no part with, but was very > uncomfortable with. As the facility was not mine, and > I was not in a position of control over that part, I > was unable to stop the effect from happening. What is > the best way to handle this position? The group > discussed the flying effect (three children flying > straight up and down)they discussed the effect with a > circus performer who told them to get sheaves and wire > rope. The facility made the group purchase sheave > with a 5-1 rating that were id with a manufacturer, > and they were convinced to use an operating line as > opposed to pulling in the aircraft cable. There were > multiple factors that I considered unsafe. My options > as I saw it was to A - walk away from the show > entirely and leave them without scenery, or B- not > partake in the effect at all and therefore avoid > liability. I had some conversations with the facility > manager, who obviously felt that it wasn't a big deal > to fly children, and that he could take care of it. > What other options are out there to prevent this > scenario? Well, unless you were never involved with the production from the beginning then you aren't going to avoid liability, no matter what you do. So worrying about liability is a waste of time. It's a difficult position to be in and it's easy to pontificate from the safety of this list what to do, but reality seldom works the way we want it to. If it were me I would have brought in as much documentation as I could find to try and convince them that they really didn't have a clue and that maybe there was a better way to do this. > > 3. This same facility manager claims that when using > cable clips (these were on the flying rig) that the > dead end should have a stop sleeve compressed onto the > cable. He claims this is the standard and that the > Glerum book dictates it. The only thing that I can > find in Glerum's book is an illistration on page 200 > that I understood to be the end of the wire rope being > bound to prevent fraying. I have never seen this > before and was curious about whether or not others did > this as well. I usually use compression sleeves since > the rating is better and a torque wrench is not needed > for proper tightening. (nor a retightening after > loading). Now that's a new one. He's very, very wrong, of course. Glerum's book notwithstanding, I would hope that anyone attempting to do this sort of stunt would a) know better and b) not be looking in a book to find out how to do it. > > 4. Also with the flying rig the facility requested > that on the ofstage side of the rig that the > termination of the cable (to where the rope must be > attached for the operating line) be a thimble that was > properly sized for the cable but a larger diameter > opening to ease the tying of a knot. I have never > seen thimbles such as these and was wondering if they > do exsist and if they do where? They exist only in the altered consciousness of the person at the facility who suggested it. If you want a larger opening in the thimble so you can pass a line through it you need a larger thimble. Hope that helps Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.278.4561 mobile Please support the Long Reach Long Riders on their 2nd annual benefit ride http://sapsis-rigging.com/LRLR.html ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42AAD48B.2000100 [at] post.tau.ac.il> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:09:47 +0200 From: Judy Subject: unprotected youth > > >People over 35 should be dead. Here's why! > ....(no seatbelts, sugary food, carcinogenic paint etc.) >This generation has >produced some of the best risk-takers and problem solvers and inventors, >ever. The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas. > Course, that might be kinda Darwinistic. I mean, anybody who survived all that unprotected danger has to be good! I enjoyed the post, but I have had some friends die much too young, maybe if they had grown up in today's protected age they wouldn't. ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 07:18:45 -0400 From: Delbert Hall Reply-To: Delbert Hall Subject: Re: More rigging Questions In-Reply-To: References: Jean, > 1. I recently found some shackles that were marked > USA, with a load rating, but the pin was blue not red. > What is the difference - manufacturer, age? >=20 These shackles are probably fine. I have purchased schakles with blue pins from McMaster-Carr, but I don't recall a particular meaning to the blue color. Maybe Bill knows more. > 2. One of the shows that I just finished did a flying > rig in which I had no part with, but was very > uncomfortable with. As the facility was not mine, and > I was not in a position of control over that part, I > was unable to stop the effect from happening. What is > the best way to handle this position? The group > discussed the flying effect (three children flying > straight up and down)they discussed the effect with a > circus performer who told them to get sheaves and wire > rope. The facility made the group purchase sheave > with a 5-1 rating that were id with a manufacturer, > and they were convinced to use an operating line as > opposed to pulling in the aircraft cable. There were > multiple factors that I considered unsafe. My options > as I saw it was to A - walk away from the show > entirely and leave them without scenery, or B- not > partake in the effect at all and therefore avoid > liability. I had some conversations with the facility > manager, who obviously felt that it wasn't a big deal > to fly children, and that he could take care of it. > What other options are out there to prevent this > scenario? Your did the correct thing - talk to the theatre manager and explain why you feel that the effect is unsafe. If he/she chooses to ignor your advice then you could walk away, but I don't see that that helps either you or them (assuming you are not involved in the effect).=20 BTW, although there is no nataional "standard" for the design factor=20 for flying performers, the generally used recommendation is 8:1, not 5:1 for this used. >=20 > 3. This same facility manager claims that when using > cable clips (these were on the flying rig) that the > dead end should have a stop sleeve compressed onto the > cable. He claims this is the standard and that the > Glerum book dictates it. The only thing that I can > find in Glerum's book is an illistration on page 200 > that I understood to be the end of the wire rope being > bound to prevent fraying. I have never seen this > before and was curious about whether or not others did > this as well. I usually use compression sleeves since > the rating is better and a torque wrench is not needed > for proper tightening. (nor a retightening after > loading). >=20 He is wrong - I have never heard of putting a stop sleeve on the end of a cable for this purpose. I think what you are seeing in the illustration is tape used to precent the strands of the cable from untwisting. I hate cable clips and I agree with you - oval compression sleeves are much better. > 4. Also with the flying rig the facility requested > that on the ofstage side of the rig that the > termination of the cable (to where the rope must be > attached for the operating line) be a thimble that was > properly sized for the cable but a larger diameter > opening to ease the tying of a knot. I have never > seen thimbles such as these and was wondering if they > do exsist and if they do where? For small diamenter cables like we use in theatres, you can get thimbles of different sizes. Rather that tying the rope directly to the thimble, a shackle or quicklink is commonly used. This makes it a lot easier to attach a large diament rope to the cable. -Delbert --=20 Delbert Hall Phone: 423-773-4255 ------------------------------ Message-ID: <000701c56e88$11e735a0$fa663cd1 [at] presario> From: "Dan Lewis" References: Subject: Re: Rigging Question/When is it safe? Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:18:32 -0400 "Keith is right, it is amazing that we survived our youth. -Delbert" Some mornings I wonder if I did... Back's a little stiff today... Dan Lewis ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:19:36 -0400 From: "Josh Ratty" Subject: Re: Stubborn carriage bolts Message-id: <01d601c56e88$37cda9c0$0301000a [at] Rattys> References: > Carriage bolts are a lousy compromise with no feature that > excells. > > Stuart > They look nice in picnic tables. Probably the only place I've ever made a conscious decision to use them. Josh Ratty ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42AAECE7.2060908 [at] fitchtech.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 09:53:43 -0400 From: Adam Fitchett Subject: Re: Sound Levels? References: In-Reply-To: Almost. A +3dB increase is a doubling in power (from 100 watts->200 watts). For doubling in level it is a +10dB increase. And typically the just noticeable difference in sound level is 1dB, most every one should notice a 3dB change. Ahh, my sound Prof would be so proud. :) -Adam Fitchett Bill Nelson wrote: >A 3 dB increase (doubling in level) in level is barely noticeable for most >people. > >120 dB is supposedly the threshhold of pain for the average person. > >Bill > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 05:28:23 -1000 From: "Paul Guncheon" Subject: Re: Erector Set Message-id: <003401c56e9a$354c02c0$683e4104 [at] yourxhtr8hvc4p> References: <> "Meccano" sets are quite similar to the old Erector sets... but without the smell. I don't think they have the carousel horses, caterpillar treads, or the parachutes, tough. Laters, Paul "Yes, I'm amazingly strongly built," said Tom soberly. ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050611141114.017113d8 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:11:14 From: CB Subject: Re: Sound Levels? >> Specific info (db, what scale, location of measurement, etc) would be >> helpful. >Concert volume must not exceed 100 Db. (=8CA=B9 weighted average slow-response >measured from the centre mix position.) Ehm, I don't know what =8CA=B9 weighted is (that's how it showed up to me) but you had better be at least this specific about how the measurement will be taken. The "It can not go over 96 dB" in the contract is easily dealt with by pointing to the console and saying "Look, it isn't even peaking above 6 dB!" 'You know what we meant' is no way to defend a contract, ask ANY lawyer. There have been times when I have turned the console off, and instructed the complainant to go ask that little girl there to stop hitting her drums so hard (I loved mixing for Andrea!), and others when the cop's have brought out their Rat Shack meter and I bring out my digital. "Hey, you A weighted or C weighted? Fast or Slow response on that lil' thing?" "Uh, I dunno..." Yeah, that went far... Then there was the outdoor venue where the cops asked me to shut down, and I accompanied them to the caller's window, (where Tucson City Ordinance says the measurement should take place) and tried to take a measurement. The cop started to get a reading, and a car stopped at the stop sign, "Wait a sec..." Just as he was about to get another reading, another car. "Hold on a sec..." "Look buddy, it doesn't seem as if this guy is as bothered by the band as he is by these cars. Once you get the traffic stopped, come back and see me." I didn't hear from the cops again at that venue. Ever. The thing is, if its loud, you know it. Sound guys should* be the ones to decide what is too loud. If you have a true SOUND guy at the venue,the offending SG and the house SG should work it out. Some times its the band that's too loud, from the stage, and the poor OFH guy is just trying to get vocal out on top. Adding your screaming, threatening house guy to his mix ain't gonna get it any quieter, and there may be nothinbg that he can do about it (dropping the 3 dB of vocal mix that he has sitting atop the walla coming from the stage isn't gonna show up much on the meter...) Look, there are really three or four people that know what is going on with sound in any venue at any given time. Usually one is behind the board, two are paying for seats, and one is working the in and the out for the local. Folks in management really don't have a clue, and handing me a sheet that says "It can never be over 100dB for five minutes" is a sure sign. Give me an 'airtight' contract every time. The more specific a contract is, the more loopholes tend to be built into it. "The Visiting Sound Operator should consult the House Sound Operator for optimum overall level, and should comply if requested to bring the overall level up or down". If your house sound guy is an idiot, we'll know. If he isn't, we'll be able to work together and make you happy. *I use the term 'sound guy' to describe a guy who knows sound, not necessarily the guy who runs the sound. The two terms aren't synonymous. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050611142207.017113d8 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:22:07 From: CB Subject: Re: Sound Levels? FORD AMPHITHEATRE noise issues >As many of you may or may not know, , the FORD AMPHITHEATRE ( i e Clear >Channel Entertainment ) here in Tampa is having a battle with the Hillsborough >County EPC which monitors noise regulations, That's not a sound problem, its a CLEARCHANNEL problem. What do you call a 400lb Gorilla? Sir. I'm guessing that line arrays weren't in the mix when the local EP guys specced the venue either, but they prolly show up for almost every show. Defeating the inverse square law has its consequences,and there is more line array abuse today than at any time in history. They are finally affordable enough to be used, and no one is getting any 'real' traingin on what they're for, much less how to use them. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050611142604.017113d8 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:26:04 From: CB Subject: Re: Sound Levels? > OSHA regulations are a good basis to start from in the US. After all, >there are employees in the house for whom you have to stay in compliance. >If loud noise levels at your facility have not been a problem in the >institutional memory, why waste ink and paper setting limits? OSHA requires you wear these here earplugs at the concerts while you work. Take two, they're small. Done and did. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050611143244.017113d8 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:32:44 From: CB Subject: what is safe? >I was on the beach, with a small fire, surrounded by >tons and tons of water and sand, how can that be >dangerous? When it's left burning by drunk frat boys, and embers drop onto the porches of the rich that now inhabit 88% of the beaches in this country. At the same time we started seeing anti-darwinist legislation, the young got the idea that EVERYTHING was someone else's responsibility. Along came selfish and frivilous lawsuits, and sneering selfish youth that wish to emulate drug dealers and criminals. Once you have a society that doesn't clean up after itself, you get legislation that says you can't get dirty in the first place. I ain't saying that all of our youth are like that, but I am saying that there are enough of them that its a problem. I think it started when spanking became bad... Hey, you kids get offa my lawn! (grumble damn kids grumble crazy hair grouse loud music...) Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050611143618.017113d8 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:36:18 From: CB Subject: Re: flying effect for Les Miz >I just smile and ask if >he rode a horse to school this morning. :) I went back to Colo Spgs to do a show at the Broadmoor last winter, and found my childhod home by following the path from the school that I rode my pony back and forth on. Be careful what you ask! Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050611144332.017113d8 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:43:32 From: CB Subject: Re: Sound Levels? >Most SPL limits I've seen use an A-weighted reading, but I've read that >C-weighting is more suited to accurately metering an amplified music >source, especially at the low end. As a general rule of thumb*, A weight to see if you are in the hearing danger zone, or to see what levels of exposure your employees have. C weight to see what you're neighbors are hearing. The amount of power at the low end is not as hjarmful (at the same levels) as the higher frequencies. *Rule for 'not sound guys'. Rule for a layman, TD, box office manager, usher, etc. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050611150435.017129d0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:04:35 From: CB Subject: Re: Sound Levels? >120 dB is supposedly the threshhold of pain for the average person. Here's a site that'll give you a bit of info, and at times, too much. Usefull charts, though.: And this one if you don't want to do the invers square law math in your head: 120 dB is teh average threshold of pain. Some of us hurt a bit sooner than others, and remember, pain is an indication of damage taking place. Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050611150919.017113d8 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 15:09:19 From: CB Subject: RE: Rigging Question/When is it safe? > Nonetheless, it is possible to fix blame and liability when it is necessary to do so, Thanks. That's why I ask those with skills in those areas! Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-ID: <13051665.1118539048594.JavaMail.davidfitwe [at] mac.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:17:28 -0700 From: David Wetmore Subject: lightweigh headsets in NY City I need to know where some good places to buy lightweight headsets in NY city would be. Looking for either clear com or telex. For use with a clear com system. Please email me off list with answers as I only get the digest, and need to know asap. David Wetmore ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42AB9D9B.1050703 [at] telus.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:27:39 -0600 From: "RODOK!!!" Subject: flying fx training I had the benefit of learning how to rig pendulum and track on track systems 9 or 10 years ago for a production of "Peter Pan" from a tremendous educator. He took the time and had the patience to show me the safest and most artistic ways to do things. Since then, we've flown many performers for a variety of productions without mishap; touch wood and waiver sheet. Liability, as it was explained to me by several lawyers, has much to do with "due diligence." Am I able to minimize risks by thinking ahead and planning for what could happen? Have I myself kept up in formal studies on the topic? Do I have records of workshops attended? Do I use all rated hardware from reputable sources? What training do I give the performers and those who fly them? Are all specialty items professionally engineered and inspected? . Have I documented my risk management plan? And so on.. Would I have gotten into it had I known how much work and preparation flying talent would be? Initial training in rigging from someone who wasn't as thorough and meticulous would have had potentially disasterous results. If someone says it's easy and they can quickly show you how to rig a fly system, hire someone. thanks Delbert. Rod Osiowy Wild Theatre ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:01:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Sound Levels? From: Bruce Purdy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: > Ehm, I don't know what =8CA=B9 weighted is (that's how it showed up to me) That should be A weighted. I copied and pasted from my website and the open and close single quote marks came through with their codes (=8C and =B9 respectively). Sorry about that! > but you had better be at least this specific about how the measurement will > be taken I tried to be as specific as I could. > Some times its the band > that's too loud, from the stage, and the poor OFH guy is just trying to get > vocal out on top. That's my biggest problem. The sound guy points out to me that all his settings are all the way down, but the "Over the limits" volume is coming straight from the stage! Disclaimer: I am NOT a real "sound guy", but I'm trying to learn! Bruce -- Bruce Purdy Technical Director Smith Opera House ------------------------------ Subject: Is it too good to be true? Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:32:04 -0400 Message-ID: From: "James, Brian" I ran across this page for a free cad program.=20 I thought it may be of interest to some of you. http://www.x-cad.net ------------------------------ Message-ID: <4532.64.28.63.1.1118564139.squirrel [at] webmail.peak.org> In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 01:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Sound Levels? From: "Bill Nelson" > 120 dB is teh average threshold of pain. Some of us hurt a bit sooner > than > others, and remember, pain is an indication of damage taking place. Yep. I am pushing 60 - and even 100 dB borders on painful with broadband sound. If it is a narrow frequency range, even 90 dB can hurt. Bill ------------------------------ From: "Tony Deeming" Subject: RE: Is it too good to be true? Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 09:20:19 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Hmmmmm.... A web site advertising a free program...? But ONLY if 100,000 people register by August 1? 'Reserve your copy now?' I don't think I'll be the first to sign up for this! 8-s Ynot -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net]On Behalf Of James, Brian Sent: 12 June 2005 06:32 To: Stagecraft Subject: Is it too good to be true? For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- I ran across this page for a free cad program. I thought it may be of interest to some of you. http://www.x-cad.net ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #425 *****************************