Return-Path: X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Lite Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! X-Real-To: stagecraftlist [at] theatrical.net Received: by prxy.net (CommuniGate Pro PIPE 4.2.10) with PIPE id 23177599; Sun, 19 Jun 2005 03:00:31 -0700 X-ListServer: CommuniGate Pro LIST 4.2.10 List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Message-ID: From: "Stagecraft" Sender: "Stagecraft" To: "Stagecraft" Precedence: list Subject: Stagecraft Digest #432 Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 03:00:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on prxy.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.6 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.3 X-TFF-CGPSA-Version: 1.4f2 X-prxy-Spam-Filter: Scanned For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Stagecraft Digest, Issue #432 1. Re: Tour Rigging Responsibilities versus venue by Bill Sapsis 2. Mackie trim by "David R. Krajec" 3. Re: audio cables by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 4. Re: 1" X 3" by Stuart Wheaton 5. Re: Tour Rigging Responsibilities versus venue by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 6. Re: Lumber dimensions, etc. by "C. Dopher" 7. Dust mask by Jerry Durand 8. Re: Dust mask by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 9. Re: Dust mask by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 10. Re: More rigging Questions by Bill Sapsis 11. Typos by CB 12. Re: More rigging Questions by CB 13. Re: Lumber dimensions, etc. by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 14. Re: More rigging Questions by FrankWood95 [at] aol.com 15. Re: Lumber dimensions, etc. by Mark O'Brien 16. Re: More rigging Questions by "Tony Deeming" 17. Re: More rigging Questions by "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" 18. Re: More rigging Questions by "Occy" 19. Re: Vermont electrician licensing by Dale Farmer 20. Re: AHJ and meters by Dale Farmer 21. Re: 1" X 3" by Brian Munroe 22. Re: More rigging Questions by Dale Farmer 23. Re: More rigging Questions by Dale Farmer 24. Re: More rigging Questions by Bill Sapsis *** Please update the subject line of your reply to use the subject *** line of the message you are replying to! Please only reply to *** one message subject in each reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:48:38 -0400 Subject: Re: Tour Rigging Responsibilities versus venue From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: OK. I'm a little late on this one (damn that working for a living thing) so I'll be brief. You should know what your building can hold and have a certificate to prove it. The tour should know what their equipment weighs. For either of you to not know your part is irresponsible. If you don't know what your building can support, hire a structural engineer to find out. If the tour comes in and doesn't know what their equipment weighs, weigh it for them and charge them...a lot...for the service. Will you piss a few people off? Sure. Is it better than having the rig fall down? You betcha! Much as we hate to admit it sometimes, we all have to play like grown ups and remember that, community theatre or not, it's a job and we have responsibilities. Zat help? Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.2778.4561 mobile Please support the Long Reach Long Riders benefit ride for Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS On 6/16/05 7:24 PM, "James, Brian" wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > So, this may be a real broad question, and I can fill in with more specifics > if needed but...... > > What are the general guide lines between who is responsible for the various > parts of rigging when a tour show is in a venue? > <> > > It seems to me there should be a happy medium some where, if something falls > during a show (knock on wood) we will all spend at least one day as > co-defendants. I also noticed significant differences between rock and roll > shows versus theatrical companies, which also is interesting. > > Any one have insight to this? > ------------------------------ Reply-To: From: "David R. Krajec" Subject: Mackie trim Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:59:52 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: The Mic/Line Gain - U to 48db The Line Sensitivity - +4 through -10 to 40db I suspect that the line sensitivity should be +4 through -40db but I don't know enough about it. Hey, I'm a lighting designer that also now has to do sound stuff, too. I'm learning by the seat of my pants! And every day, the director wants more and more. And gives me the stuff at the last minute. But that's another story. David K. ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:43:29 EDT Subject: Re: audio cables In a message dated 17/06/05 23:24:50 GMT Daylight Time, psyd [at] cox.net writes: > >I'm no psychologist, but I think this is a wrong technique. Humiliating > >someone is never right. > > Frank, you've really got to get into the habit of reading all of my post > before you respond to it... Ignoring the part about how I pull him aside, > apologize, and make him a co-conspiritor usually pulls the sting from the > initial humiliation. The humiliation is the attention getter, the apology > is the salve. I did read the post, and I still think it's bad psychology. If you had humiliated me in public, even though you apologised later in private, it would be a long, long time before I forgave you, if ever. That sort of thing goes deep. I have still not forgiven the BBC for the way they made me redundant. The top brass had decided to shrink Film Department from 40 crews to 20. The then head of it declined, saying that it would not be viable at that size. He war promptly told to clear his desk, and a yes-man appointed. A month later, the four most experienced engineers in the services secton were gone. A year later, Film Department was merged with TV Outside Broadcasts, and the Ealing Studios site sold off, fulfilling the original prophecy. I occasionally run into the yes-man at trade shows. I do not speak to him, or acknowledge his presence. That's how deep that sort of thing can go. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42B45F61.2080501 [at] fuse.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:52:33 -0400 From: Stuart Wheaton Subject: Re: 1" X 3" References: In-Reply-To: Scheu Consulting Services wrote: >>I've noticed nearly all lumber yards gradually phasing out 1x3 >>stock over the past few years. It may have something to do >>with the fact that there's been a coincidental drop in quality >>since I was in college; what used to be #3 or worse is now >>being marketed as #2 or better, and with the corresponding >>increase in knottage it's making it difficult to get 1x3 over >>8' in length that doesn't snap in half when you pick it up. > > > I remember back when I worked in a scene shop in the mid-80's, we got around > this quality problem (and some cost issues) by buying 1x12's and ripping our > own 1x3's. The overall quality of 1x12's back then was better than the > available 1x3's, and it actually turned out to be cheaper (in large volumes) > to rip them ourselves. > > (That right, Boyd?) > > Yes, I know 11 1/2" doesn't divide equally by 3 1/2" (even with saw > widths), but we had lots of uses for the scrap, and selectively ripped > 1x3's, 4's, 5's, & 6's from selected 1 x 12's. > > I don't if this still holds today, but is an avenue you might want to > explore > > Peter Scheu We used to use a lot of 3/4x3" actual or 1x3 true as we called it. You can rip three from a 1x10 using a 1/8" blade with almost no waste, they are strong enough for flattage, and even though there is no reason a carp should have trouble with simple fractions, working with whole number widths of lumber seems to make cut list creation slightly less error prone. Stuart ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <1d5.3e4cdad1.2fe5b9a3 [at] aol.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 13:53:39 EDT Subject: Re: Tour Rigging Responsibilities versus venue In a message dated 18/06/05 13:45:29 GMT Daylight Time, bill [at] sapsis-rigging.com writes: > You should know what your building can hold and have a certificate to prove > it. The tour should know what their equipment weighs. For either of you to > not know your part is irresponsible. > > If you don't know what your building can support, hire a structural engineer > to find out. > > If the tour comes in and doesn't know what their equipment weighs, weigh it > for them and charge them...a lot...for the service. > > Much as we hate to admit it sometimes, we all have to play like grown ups > and remember that, community theatre or not, it's a job and we have > responsibilities. As always, good advice from Bill. BTW, one of the stands at the ABTT show had a big Harley on it, with a collection bucket for the Lnng Beach Ride. I wish you'd been astride it. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:56:19 -0400 Subject: Re: Lumber dimensions, etc. From: "C. Dopher" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3CF87682970858499CA56707FB1F092B0A91BF [at] wscc-s-003000.westshore.edu> Tom Davis wrote: > and also used a lot of yellow poplar (a bit harder to work than pine, > but very straight and stable, and often less expensive in clear grades). Absolutely right. When I build sets I buy pine, even just stud 2x4 at times for stuff I'm going to throw out after the show... But when building roadboxes and worktables, poplar is the way to go for the stressed members. I can get away with smaller size lumber (5/4 instead of 2x4 for instance) and the simple facts of clean edges, little or no warping (ever), and notable strength makes poplar a winner to me. Cris Dopher, LD ------------------------------ Message-Id: <5AC872FD-7FAB-42B6-A037-86FC0156A4F5 [at] interstellar.com> From: Jerry Durand Subject: Dust mask Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:54:45 -0700 I see I can no longer get replacement filters for my dust mask so I need to get a new one. Having a beard AND wearing glasses means most don't fit well. Any suggestions? ------------------------------ From: "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" Subject: RE: Dust mask Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:15:58 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: THERE ARE HOODS THAT ONE CAN WEAR WHICH ARE USED IN EMERGENCY SITUATIONS AND THEY MAY BE THE ONLY ANSWER TO YOUR DILEMMA. MANY COMPANIES HAVE DUST MASK, AS I BELIEVE YOU KNOW, MOST INDUSTRIAL HYGIENE COMPANIES LIST THEM AND THEIR USES. MINE SAFETY APPLIANCES IS A GOOD OUTFIT, BUT THERE ARE DOZENS OF OTHERS. IN A FEW DAYS I SHALL HAVE UNPACKED A FEW BOXES AT MY NEW DOMICILE AND I WILL HAVE A SPECIFIC SOURCE. DOOM -- Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson, Risk International & Associates, Inc. - www.riskit.com Latest workshops for Educational and Entertainment Industry Performing Arts Personnel (Riggers, and Public Assembly and Educational Technicians) www.riskit.com/workshops International Secondary Education Theater Safety Association (ISETSA) - www.isetsa.org -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Jerry Durand Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 1:55 PM To: Stagecraft Subject: Dust mask For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- I see I can no longer get replacement filters for my dust mask so I need to get a new one. Having a beard AND wearing glasses means most don't fit well. Any suggestions? ------------------------------ From: "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" Subject: RE: Dust mask Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:18:39 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ALSO, OF COURSE, THE REGULATIONS FOR RESPIRATORS, AS A RULE, SPECIFICALLY STATES THAT THE FIT IS IMPORTANT, BUT PERHAPS NOT FOR DUST MASKS. HARDWARE STORES CARRY DUST MASKS IF THAT IS ALL YOU WEAR. RESPIRATORS ARE A VERY POOR PROTECTION, EVEN THOUGH THEY HELP A TAD. THEY MAY DETER SOME PARTICLES FROM YOUR RESPIRATORY SYSTEM BUT THEY IMPOSE A GREATER STRAIN ON YOUR CARDIOVASCULAR SYSTEM. DOOM -- Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson, Risk International & Associates, Inc. - www.riskit.com Latest workshops for Educational and Entertainment Industry Performing Arts Personnel (Riggers, and Public Assembly and Educational Technicians) www.riskit.com/workshops International Secondary Education Theater Safety Association (ISETSA) - www.isetsa.org -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Jerry Durand Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 1:55 PM To: Stagecraft Subject: Dust mask For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- I see I can no longer get replacement filters for my dust mask so I need to get a new one. Having a beard AND wearing glasses means most don't fit well. Any suggestions? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 16:58:35 -0400 Subject: Re: More rigging Questions From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Again, I'm late catching up with some of this stuff so I apologize if this is a bit out of chronological order. Randy. I would have to counter your Au Contraire, mon ami, with one of my own. While I realize you have met with many people over the years and talked about our industry and informed people about this industry and the issues we face every day, I must respectfully point out that there are no OSHA regulations covering the specifics of our industry. There is no regulation that deals, for example, with the flying of performers. There is no OSHA regulation that deals specifically with the operation of a counterweight system. If they do exist I have yet to find them. If you know where they are hiding please tell me so I can pass on the information. I did not mean to imply that OSHA is not aware of our existence. A relatively few OSHA folks are. Most are not. Case in point...The regional director in Florida who was investigating the death of the stagehand who fell off the wire rope ladder had not a clue. It was up to the folks at ESTA to educate him and get him a copy of ANSI E1.1 - 1999 Entertainment Technology - Construction and Use of Wire Rope Ladders. The fact remains that while OSHA mandates the use of many of the individual pieces of hardware that we use on a regular basis, they do not regulate the specific functions, like flying people (or dogs or cats, for that matter) that we encounter. We are too small an industry. And the fact that many members of congress have family in show business has not yet aroused them from their stupor to begin writing regulations that address our industry needs. And I, for one, hope it stays that way. I am not even remotely interested in having OSHA write regulations for us. All you have to do is ask anyone who has ever had an OSHA investigation (in the entertainment business) to see how twisted and convoluted an inspection will be and what some of the OSHA inspired remedies look like to know we want them far away from our theatres. This is why the ESTA Technical Standards Program exists. The members of this program, through the various Working Groups, are working on a number of standards that not only help us do our jobs better, but also more safely. I'm proud to say that the Rigging Working Group is the most prolific of the bunch (which is not to say that there's a contest or anything) and have 2 standards on the books and a number of draft standards working their way through the system. Zat help? Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.2778.4561 mobile Please support the Long Reach Long Riders benefit ride for Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS > > Date: June 16, 2005 11:05:40 AM EDT > To: Stagecraft > Subject: Re: More rigging Questions > Reply-To: Stagecraft > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Au contraire, mon ami. Since 1975 I have met with OSHA in Washington and > around the country, and fed info into USITT and all my work. I sit on four > committees with OSHA reps from Washington, and we have constantly brought to > their attention our work, esp. the Director of Standards for the Dept. of > Labor. Senate meetings have also been given input from our work for a number > of areas, rigging, Process Management, Chemicals, Health problems of > technicians, Pyro, Special Effects, Rockets, Fall Protection, etc. Nearly > forty years of input into Washington and District OSHA groups, has given > them some knowledge of Entertainment and its ways. > Yes, even law suits. We shall continue. > > However, in the construction industry and other areas dealing with OSHA, > they know of much of our work. Many of the congressmen and Washingtoners > have family in show biz. Ten Senators that I have worked with and a number > of them at the present moment deal with Entertainment issues and have family > members involved. > > Just for information and in my opinion. Dr. Doom > > -- > Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson, Risk International & Associates, Inc. - > www.riskit.com Latest workshops for Educational and Entertainment Industry > Performing Arts Personnel (Riggers, and Public Assembly and Educational > Technicians) www.riskit.com/workshops International Secondary Education > Theater Safety Association (ISETSA) - www.isetsa.org > ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050618153104.0171b5f0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:31:04 From: CB Subject: Typos >lofe , I;ve, fro Damn, my typing is getting worse. It's not like there aren't enough folk out there that still can't figure out how to properly trim their posts for replying. C'mon, guys, check the sig. It's a deal at half the price, I'm not doing anything else this month (obviously), and again I need the typing lessons. Sorry about not checking before sending... Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20050618153519.0171b5f0 [at] pop.west.cox.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:35:19 From: CB Subject: Re: More rigging Questions >It don't really do anything to make the ride better, but >> occasionally, it saves a life. > >Now, you speak folly. Failure to use turn signals should be a criminal >offence. The guy behind you would like to know what you plan to do. *sigh again* Its not me, is it? The rest of you truly do undesrtand this? Is this an English-to-English translation thing. Tony, you're getting this aren't you? Chris "Chris" Babbie Location Sound MON AZ Delete key training and post trimming done by appointment. Rates negotiable, will trade for typing lessons/ADD treatment... ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <141.479f51d3.2fe5fae1 [at] aol.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:32:01 EDT Subject: Re: Lumber dimensions, etc. In a message dated 18/06/05 19:57:04 GMT Daylight Time, brooklyn [at] dopher.com writes: > Absolutely right. When I build sets I buy pine, even just stud 2x4 at times > for stuff I'm going to throw out after the show... But when building > roadboxes and worktables, poplar is the way to go for the stressed members. > I can get away with smaller size lumber (5/4 instead of 2x4 for instance) > and the simple facts of clean edges, little or no warping (ever), and > notable strength makes poplar a winner to me. You, in the US, seem to have a wider range available to you. Our general purpose suppliers supply pine. If I go to a specialist, I can get oak, ash, mahogany, iroko, walnut, and I don't know what else. But these are all for cabinet makers, and serious woodworkers. I think that some would have to be specially ordered. Poplar is a new one to me. Not the trees themselves, which line every French main road, but it's use in construction. Is it a hardwood, a softwood, or something in between? How do the costs of using it compare with those of using pine? Frank Wood ------------------------------ From: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com Message-ID: <1f9.c024545.2fe5fe94 [at] aol.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:47:48 EDT Subject: Re: More rigging Questions In a message dated 18/06/05 23:19:02 GMT Daylight Time, psyd [at] cox.net writes: > >Now, you speak folly. Failure to use turn signals should be a criminal > >offence. The guy behind you would like to know what you plan to do. > > *sigh again* Its not me, is it? The rest of you truly do undesrtand this? > Is this an English-to-English translation thing. Tony, you're getting > this aren't you? What is not to understand? Driving is a good deal easier and safer if you have some clue what the driver in front of you plans to do at the next intersection. That way, if there are options, you can pick your lane. Frank Wood ------------------------------ Message-ID: <20050618154930.0re1dk0k0gwg0c00 [at] www.email.arizona.edu> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:49:30 -0700 From: Mark O'Brien Subject: Re: Lumber dimensions, etc. References: In-Reply-To: Quoting FrankWood95 [at] aol.com: > Poplar is a new one to me. Not the trees themselves, which line every French > main road, but it's use in construction. Is it a hardwood, a softwood, or > something in between? How do the costs of using it compare with those > of using > pine? > > > Frank Wood Poplar is a hardwood, because the leave drop, but is softer than pine. Many different flavors. I recall just about any soft/hardwood being sold as Poplar. You can check this out, or look in your latest edition of Poplar Science magazine. http://tinyurl.com/82rhe Mark O'Brien Opera Technical Director University of Arizona, School of Music 520-621-7025 520-591-1803 Mobile ------------------------------ From: "Tony Deeming" Subject: RE: More rigging Questions Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 00:03:54 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net]On Behalf Of CB Sent: 18 June 2005 15:35 To: Stagecraft Subject: Re: More rigging Questions For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- >It don't really do anything to make the ride better, but >> occasionally, it saves a life. > >Now, you speak folly. Failure to use turn signals should be a criminal >offence. The guy behind you would like to know what you plan to do. *sigh again* Its not me, is it? The rest of you truly do undesrtand this? Is this an English-to-English translation thing. Tony, you're getting this aren't you? Chris "Chris" Babbie Erm, don't drag me into this! I understand MOST of what you left-ponders say (I do mean most!), but I don't always agree with what all right-ponders opine! 8-))))) Ynot ------------------------------ From: "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" Cc: rshamel [at] gis.net ('Rick Shamel') Cc: rnix [at] one.net ('Richard Nix') Cc: phsullivan [at] yahoo.com ('Paul H. Sullivan') Cc: antrim [at] uakron.edu ('Antrim,James G') Subject: RE: More rigging Questions Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 19:17:12 -0600 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Reply to Zat Help? William: OSHA regulations are applicable, in the areas discussed, wire rope being one of them, albeit through the Construction 1926, but they are referenced materials, and thus through ANSI as well, which is what the rigging committee at USITT and ESTA has finally carried through. Having begun this trip which now is ESTA in 1975 at the USITT national conference in Anaheim, I know of which you speak. I do not wish to list all of the OSHA regional people I work with, that would be fruitless, however when I was an administrator at Walt Disney Imagineering, we did notify Florida people, if not all theme park sites, including by the way Universal, of our work with OSHA. As with any Federal group they do change people, as my involvement was a number of years ago. ESTA group is the result of our involvement over those years, though maybe not recognized. 1975 was some time ago, obviously. There are many references to Standards in OSHA which do not specifically detail theatre or entertainment in a line item, but are applicable to these industries, and are used in litigation. No argument that individual pieces of hardware may not be mentioned, or perhaps, perhaps functions, but they have been applicable as a Standard of Care when using equipment. Many case studies and litigious pronouncements testify to this fact. As to the stupor of Congress, which you seem to use a broad brush with, if you do look back to USITT, once again, the preeminent organization of technicians, a document, The Entertainment Act of 1975 was presented to the Director of Standards, John Proctor, with whom I was well acquainted and met with regularly, and it contained all the provisions we speak of in OSHA as it was based on OSHA documents. But you are correct, it did not become law, as I was asked if I wanted it to become law and declined. I believe your experiences may be slightly convoluted as I have noted that the ANSI standards do indeed become Reference documents for OSHA. I have, to make the record very clear, been involved perhaps more than you or others in investigations and litigation and code work with OSHA and state OSHA groups, and risk management groups and insurance groups, etc. and to my mind, and this is strictly a personal opinion, not found these investigations to be convoluted, twisted, etc. Pick you title. I fear you are way off the mark, and that is sad for a person in your position in rigging. And indeed, ESTA has begun this work. You will note to others, if you will, that I have been involved with this ESTA rigging from way back, and many of the participants have been involved with me in my teaching group, and I was the one who presented many years ago to the ESTA executive committee that there ought to be Certification, which I began to work on in the early eighties, both here and in Europe, England as many will attest to. Just so the record is quite clear. Quite clear and accurate. You might refer to some early meetings and documents way back with the chairs of the different groups who worked with me on developing these approaches. I see their names on most of the rigging committee group. Dr. Doom -- Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson, Risk International & Associates, Inc. - www.riskit.com Latest workshops for Educational and Entertainment Industry Performing Arts Personnel (Riggers, and Public Assembly and Educational Technicians) www.riskit.com/workshops International Secondary Education Theater Safety Association (ISETSA) - www.isetsa.org -----Original Message----- From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Bill Sapsis Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2005 2:59 PM To: Stagecraft Subject: Re: More rigging Questions For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see --------------------------------------------------- Again, I'm late catching up with some of this stuff so I apologize if this is a bit out of chronological order. Randy. I would have to counter your Au Contraire, mon ami, with one of my own. While I realize you have met with many people over the years and talked about our industry and informed people about this industry and the issues we face every day, I must respectfully point out that there are no OSHA regulations covering the specifics of our industry. There is no regulation that deals, for example, with the flying of performers. There is no OSHA regulation that deals specifically with the operation of a counterweight system. If they do exist I have yet to find them. If you know where they are hiding please tell me so I can pass on the information. I did not mean to imply that OSHA is not aware of our existence. A relatively few OSHA folks are. Most are not. Case in point...The regional director in Florida who was investigating the death of the stagehand who fell off the wire rope ladder had not a clue. It was up to the folks at ESTA to educate him and get him a copy of ANSI E1.1 - 1999 Entertainment Technology - Construction and Use of Wire Rope Ladders. The fact remains that while OSHA mandates the use of many of the individual pieces of hardware that we use on a regular basis, they do not regulate the specific functions, like flying people (or dogs or cats, for that matter) that we encounter. We are too small an industry. And the fact that many members of congress have family in show business has not yet aroused them from their stupor to begin writing regulations that address our industry needs. And I, for one, hope it stays that way. I am not even remotely interested in having OSHA write regulations for us. All you have to do is ask anyone who has ever had an OSHA investigation (in the entertainment business) to see how twisted and convoluted an inspection will be and what some of the OSHA inspired remedies look like to know we want them far away from our theatres. This is why the ESTA Technical Standards Program exists. The members of this program, through the various Working Groups, are working on a number of standards that not only help us do our jobs better, but also more safely. I'm proud to say that the Rigging Working Group is the most prolific of the bunch (which is not to say that there's a contest or anything) and have 2 standards on the books and a number of draft standards working their way through the system. Zat help? Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.2778.4561 mobile Please support the Long Reach Long Riders benefit ride for Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS > > Date: June 16, 2005 11:05:40 AM EDT > To: Stagecraft > Subject: Re: More rigging Questions > Reply-To: Stagecraft > > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Au contraire, mon ami. Since 1975 I have met with OSHA in Washington and > around the country, and fed info into USITT and all my work. I sit on four > committees with OSHA reps from Washington, and we have constantly brought to > their attention our work, esp. the Director of Standards for the Dept. of > Labor. Senate meetings have also been given input from our work for a number > of areas, rigging, Process Management, Chemicals, Health problems of > technicians, Pyro, Special Effects, Rockets, Fall Protection, etc. Nearly > forty years of input into Washington and District OSHA groups, has given > them some knowledge of Entertainment and its ways. > Yes, even law suits. We shall continue. > > However, in the construction industry and other areas dealing with OSHA, > they know of much of our work. Many of the congressmen and Washingtoners > have family in show biz. Ten Senators that I have worked with and a number > of them at the present moment deal with Entertainment issues and have family > members involved. > > Just for information and in my opinion. Dr. Doom > > -- > Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson, Risk International & Associates, Inc. - > www.riskit.com Latest workshops for Educational and Entertainment Industry > Performing Arts Personnel (Riggers, and Public Assembly and Educational > Technicians) www.riskit.com/workshops International Secondary Education > Theater Safety Association (ISETSA) - www.isetsa.org > ------------------------------ Message-ID: From: "Occy" Cc: peter [at] scheuconsulting.com References: Subject: Re: More rigging Questions Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 18:47:45 -0700 Peter your right OSHA never shows up and does inspections, they come after the problem has happens! MSHA is different... I had to deal with a rock quarry and they where their unannounced every 3 months and do an inspection, including hearing testing. But here is an MSHA story for all: I get a call from the quarry that MSHA going to shut us down. So I drive an hour and a half to get there, I find out its over a power receptacle (117vac) at the fueling dock my meters shows it fine but theirs don't. So ask what do you want me to do? "They said fix or remove it" I go ok, turned the power off for that quad of the plant got the loader op (cat 992) over and tied a line to the conduit to the bucket of the loader, and said raise and go and put it the scrap pile. With very big eyes they MSHA watched. found a rock pounded in the hole where the conduit was and got some JB weld glue to close it. Ok next, they got in their cars and left. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scheu Consulting Services" Peter your right In my almost 25 years of experience as a Production Manager, TD, Events Manger, LD, Rigging Systems Designer, Project Manager and Head Chef and Bottle Washer, I have yet to directly interface with someone from OSHA until AFTER an incident occurred. And that was only after a steel fab shop "industrial" accident. While OSHA inspectors may appear when requested or notified of a potential dangerous condition, they just don't show up in theatrical venues unannounced very often, if at all. And certainly not with an agenda to inspect particular pieces of gear, like a flying harness. The local OSHA guy just isn't educated in the tools of our trade. That was my simple point, and I apologize for overstating it. What's my penance, Brother Randy? Peter Scheu Scheu Consulting Services, Inc. www.scheuconsulting.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42B4D97A.C88C7FE7 [at] cybercom.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:33:30 -0400 From: Dale Farmer Organization: The fuzz in the back of the fridge. Subject: Re: Vermont electrician licensing References: Jared Fortney wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks to everyone who shared their experience and resources related to this > issue. I think I've found the correct answer, though it's not the answer I > was hoping for. It looks like a licensed Master Electrician will have to be > on site to verify our setup. > > Hopefully the new ETCP exams will help bring government recognition of the > skills of a stage electrician. > > If anyone happens to wander into our little circus this summer, come say hi. > We'll be in VT, NH, MA, RI and ME. > > -Jared Fortney > Tech. Director > Circus Smirkus > Big Top Tour 2005 > Phone: 802-533-7443 > Fax: 802-533-2480 > If you come to the Boston area, let me know. If you have some paying work, I'd be even more interested. ( didn't get a summer gig ) --Dale ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42B4DBD8.B8604F61 [at] cybercom.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:43:37 -0400 From: Dale Farmer Organization: The fuzz in the back of the fridge. Subject: Re: AHJ and meters References: "Cyr, Dale" wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > > >> Would anyone out there care to recommend a meter or metering system > >> for use in small indoor venues? > > From: Stagecraft [mailto:stagecraft [at] theatrical.net] On Behalf Of Paul > Schreiner > >While it's not a piece of ultra-high quality equipment, I've been very > >pleased with the Galaxy Audio CM-140. Selling for about $100-120, it's > >within most budgets, and provides accuracy within 1.5dB. It'll do both > >A and C weightings, as well as fast or slow readings. I had one at my > >last job, and am buying one for here this fall. > > the option that paul suggests is good. > radio shack sells one for about half that, same features, > not quite as accurate. > might be 'close enough' for your purposes, > especially if cost is a 'major' consideration... > > see http://www.digital-recordings.com/audiocd/radio.html > for a comparison of the accuracy of the RS model vs a pro B&K model. I'd go with the rat shack meter. The thing is going to be beat up by all sorts of careless users, and 'misplaced' by folks who want to play loud. So figger in replacing the stupid thing every year or three. One venue I worked in years ago mounted one inside of a lexan box at the location specified in their noise control policy. Little wall wart power supply and a push to operate switch. Anyone who wanted to know the level could just walk up and press the button. The same switch turned on a little light inside to allow them to read the meter. The lexan box was added after the previous one had been smashed. --Dale ------------------------------ Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:46:32 -0400 From: Brian Munroe Reply-To: Brian Munroe Subject: Re: 1" X 3" In-Reply-To: References: On 6/18/05, Stuart Wheaton wrote: > We used to use a lot of 3/4x3" actual or 1x3 true as we > called it. You can rip three from a 1x10 using a 1/8" blade > with almost no waste, they are strong enough for flattage, > and even though there is no reason a carp should have > trouble with simple fractions, working with whole number > widths of lumber seems to make cut list creation slightly > less error prone. I worked with a head carpenter who insisted we rip1x6 straight down the middle, resulting in 2 5/8", instead of making two rips at 2 1/2" wide. Really confused the cut lists using 8ths instead of halves.=20 The time saved on one rip was wasted on extra thinking and mistaken cuts. Brian Munroe bpmunroe [at] gmail.com ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42B4E28B.AA6CB7E7 [at] cybercom.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:12:11 -0400 From: Dale Farmer Organization: The fuzz in the back of the fridge. Subject: Re: More rigging Questions References: FrankWood95 [at] aol.com wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > In a message dated 17/06/05 22:19:39 GMT Daylight Time, psyd [at] cox.net writes: > > > I've never had anyone's lofe depend on the continuous output of one of my > > power amps, although, some of the promoters and bands I;ve worked fro have > > indicated as much... > > Of course not. The worst thing that a duff power amplifier can do is to make > nasty noises. Okay Frank. I'll draw a parallel. I want you to design a power supply for a cardiac pacemaker that is going to be implanted into your body and you will require for your continued survival. Once it is installed, any service you need to do will require a surgical operation that is expensive and has a small but finite chance of killing you anyway. By the way, service includes replacement of the battery. What safety factor would you be comfortable with for your own life, or the life of a loved one? --Dale ------------------------------ Message-ID: <42B4E3E6.2E40583C [at] cybercom.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:17:58 -0400 From: Dale Farmer Organization: The fuzz in the back of the fridge. Subject: Re: More rigging Questions References: Scheu Consulting Services wrote: > For info, archives & UNSUBSCRIBE, see > --------------------------------------------------- > > Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson wrote: > > >Peter, a good friend and I trust a continued one: > > >I pray this clarifies the realities of involvement. Dr. Doom > > ...as I pray for absolution of the sin of using the word "never" ;-) > > In my almost 25 years of experience as a Production Manager, TD, Events > Manger, LD, Rigging Systems Designer, Project Manager and Head Chef and > Bottle Washer, I have yet to directly interface with someone from OSHA until > AFTER an incident occurred. And that was only after a steel fab shop > "industrial" accident. > > While OSHA inspectors may appear when requested or notified of a potential > dangerous condition, they just don't show up in theatrical venues > unannounced very often, if at all. And certainly not with an agenda to > inspect particular pieces of gear, like a flying harness. The local OSHA guy > just isn't educated in the tools of our trade. That was my simple point, and > I apologize for overstating it. Last year I was working the WW2 memorial dedication in Washington, DC. OSHA was only three blocks from the work site, and some of the OSHA inspectors ate lunch and went jogging on the site. ( The National Mall) We were always mindful of safety, despite joggers dodging around the folks trying to stop them from running underneath the raised load of the forklift, and then cursing at us, when they bounce off the side of the large bright yellow noisy forklift, for blocking their jogging path. ( really happened, at least twice. ) --Dale ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 23:49:38 -0400 Subject: Re: More rigging Questions From: Bill Sapsis Message-ID: In-Reply-To: On the contrary. I believe I have made my point and am not off the mark. Just as I am sure you believe you are not off the mark. However, your characterization is unnecessary and unhelpful. I believe that the readers of this list have been subjected to enough on this topic and it's now time to move on. Bill S. www.sapsis-rigging.com 800.727.7471 800.292.3851 fax 267.2778.4561 mobile Please support the Long Reach Long Riders benefit ride for Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS On 6/18/05 9:17 PM, "Dr. Randall W.A. Davidson" wrote: > I fear you are way off the mark, and that is sad for a person in your > position in rigging. ------------------------------ End of Stagecraft Digest #432 *****************************